188 replies to this topic

[Saxon]

Either we could go with an uniform Fragment System meaning there is only Fragments
and these fragments are not based on rarity, though the amount that comes from the items
are based on rarity and level

Basically the base amount would be like this like this (numbers are not to be set in stone)
Common        x10 Fragments
Rare        x50 Fragments
Unique        x100 Fragments
Elite        x150 Fragments
Super Elite    x200 Fragments
Crystalline    x250 Fragments
Legendary    x300 Fragments
Epic        x400 Fragments

 

Simple is good and this concept seems to have escalated to complex.

 

The fragments idea works, but as suggested above, keep fragments as a single currency but items provide a certain amount of fragments.

 

Possibly adjust the EPICs to x600 Fragments

[RebornJedi]

i think common, unique, and rare items should be taken out of the composing idea.. Elite items should have their item type changed to just Elite or Rare Elite or whatever.

 

i just fear Composing is going to get dumb'd down to only have one type of fragment (which if this doesn't become the case, there still needs to be an overhaul of relabeling item types through out the game so not just one item is farmed over the general population of that item type) and then you'll just see players farming low level creatures to massively breakdown those items to create potions that should be taking Legendary and above items..

 

How i think the item type breakdown should go...

 

Elite > Legendary > Crystalline > Epic

 

This makes Composing a feature that gets players out there farming Elite items, destroying the overabundance of Legendary Event  drops, and shrinking down teh Epic supply

[iambrad]

Has anyone looked at the AH prices on inferno and earth elemental hammers?  They have already doubled and composing is not even available yet... What ever is done, keep it simple. The intentions were to use up unwanted/surplus items not items that are in few numbers or already valuable, keep it in that direction.

[RebornJedi]

Has anyone looked at the AH prices on inferno and earth elemental hammers?  They have already doubled and composing is not even available yet... What ever is done, keep it simple. The intentions were to use up unwanted/surplus items not items that are in few numbers or already valuable, keep it in that direction.

i could imagine that once Composing goes live, you'll see players looking for the cheapest way to make the potions. plus HCS can learn to regulate the incoming flow of rare items to help balance it out. for the elemental items, theres not many ways to increase the ones coming into the game besides encouraging players to level up and hunt the titans (which i think the sell price of those items would be enough encouragement)

[koenvdv]

 

 

Creating a Potion

 

Select skill(s)

Select level for skills.

Select duration.

Shows time taken / gold cost / fragment cost

 

So for example:

 

Hoof’s Basic Potion [30m]

Conserve 50

Librarian 180

 

Fragment cost would be something like:

 

Common Fragments = (amount_of_skills * (total_skill_level / 5));

Rare Fragments = (amount_of_skills * ((total_skill_level - (25 * amount_of_skills)) / 20));

Legendary Fragments = (amount_of_skills * ((total_skill_level - (125 * amount_of_skills)) / 100));

Epic Fragments = (amount_of_skills * ((total_skill_level - (175 * amount_of_skills)) / 500));

if(Epic Fragments > 2) Epic Fragments = 2

 

Gold Cost = amount_of_skills * total_skill_level * duration * 3

Time to Create = amount_of_skills * total_skill_level * duration * scalar

Cost to Finish Instantly = (Gold Cost * scalar)

 

Too many equations, too much stuff to think about. This explanation simply makes my brain hurt! With a single type of fragment like i suggested, each buff takes an amount of fragments, the different duration times would have a cost in fragments, the buff levels would cost an amount of fragments...........

 

each of these would also have a small cost in gold cause quite frankly, i wouldnt fragment an epic AND pay 2 1/4 million gold to make a potion that is quite honestly not worth my time.

 

 

After every number in the game is a equation (or has been to create it). The equations are the base of meny mmorpgs and it is important that you create one that benefits the game the most. For me the linear equations are still to simple to offer the best experience. The potion level of each buff has the seame influence on price, even if it gives you less value. Doubler for example has a high level and using this level directly in the multiplication for gold price will make this a verry expensive buff.

 

The pricing at each level should be different (not: price = ... x ... x ... x total potion level). Basicly the pots are to expensive to level in composing and to expensive for the less fortunate, even at a decent level. But when stepping away from this equation it might be better to make a sum instead of multiplication. So that separate buffs don't cost more then in one pot.

 

You can give the higher level pots a benefit by reducing the time needed to create them or giving them more experience. This will give people who want to level up fast the chance to but at a price.

 

In the end you won't see them ... you would just choose what u want to make and you'll be able to see what u need for it.

[morderme]

How about limiting the composing to item rarity AND range of levels.  A group of commons creates a rare; a group of rare creates a unique, and so on and so forth.  The process requires many commons to produce a rare; not quite as many rare to produce a unique, etc.. And, the level created is also random -- from within the range of items used to compose the next item.  It gets more expensive as the rarity and level increases -- just as forging items does now.

 

Again, making this process too expensive will exclude too many players who have the resources to either make the items and less likely to have the resources to buy the newly composed items.  And perhaps having more unique, composed items will reinvigorate PvP as more players will have access to quality gear. Just saying.

[grimnok]

The costs are WAY too high. Consider

Hoof’s Ultimate Potion [120m]

Librarian 200

Adept Learner 200

Coordinated Attack 250

Animal Magnetism 250

Doubler 350

 

Gold Cost = 5 * 1250 * 120 * 3 = 2,250,000

Time to Create = (5 * 1250 * 120) / 10 = 75000s = 1250m = ~20 hours

Cost to Finish Instantly = (2,250,000 * 5) = 11,250,000

 

That's an absurdly high amount of gold.  You can buy potions, immediately, for less. Particularly if you drop Coor Attack.  I know it's much harder to do properly. But this formula treats all buffs as equivalently valuable, when they're not.  Librarian, Doubler are available at higher levels for almost negligible gold costs. AL is available, at almost that level, for negligible costs.

 

The only buffs that are going to be very useful are ones that can be generated at higher than 'cheap' potions. And that value differs based on what the buff is.  I'd recommend at the very least, make minimums of 175 on all the creations, and take the created level  minus 150 as some sort of cost basis.

[thisple]

I don't think it is fair to treat all epics as equal here.  A Mask of Terror is way more valuable than an Inferno Hammer.

[thisple]

I will say the prospect of having the AH cleaned up a bit is very appealing to me.  I hate scrolling through pages and pages of junk to find something good.

 

I bet the number of items listed on the AH will go down by over 50%

[koenvdv]

This is the time and money equation I would suggest:

explanation:

To start of we will set up a maximum price and time, and make a equation that gives a fraction of this price depending on what level of the maximum composing level it is. 

Price = Price_max * Price factor

Time = Time_max * Time factor

 

Lets say that the experience you earn is just a multiplication to the level of te buffs (exp = level buff * xp factor). You want to have a equation that is cheaper at lower levels so that the lower levels with less money can use them to (with lower level buffs) and you can train composing by making these lower potions. There has to be given something in return, so that people who want to level faster by paying more gold can raise faster.

 

Example:

The maximum level u can have for Smashing Hammer in composing is 250 (level_max = 250). Lets say we make two pots one level 125 and one level 200. This gives in the x ordinate 0,5 (=125/250) and 0,8 (=200/250). 

 

The price and time factor will be (see graph):

 

level 125: 0,35 0,70

level 200: 0,70 0,93

 

If the maximum price and time would have been 200.000 gold and 60 minutes then price and time would have been:

 

level 125: 70.000   gold 42 minutes

level 200: 140.000 gold 56 minutes

 

 

math:

We say that x = level/level_max. 

 

Now we need some equations that we can raise fast or slow for lower levels depending on what we want. We use a polynom of the second order for this.

Price factor = A * x² + B * x

Time factor = C * x² + D * x

 

For the given example these are: 

A=0,6 B=0,4 C=-0,8 D=1,8

 

Note:

You can not sum the total level otherwise two seperate pots with same buff would be different then together. So the total price will be the sum of the prices of each buff idividual.

[Protecto]

Hoping that you could increase drasticly the amount of common and rare fragments needed and get rid of epic fragments. So also lower level players could make epic potions just by playing the game activly..

[Hoofmaster]

I've had a look over everyone's comments for far and the general feeling I'm getting is this:

 

1) Don't increase the skill levels available from the initial suggestion, but instead add new skills which can be only obtained via Composing.

 

2) Reduce the gold cost to ensure it is more of an item sink.

 

3) Remove Epic Fragments and re-work the formulas so it includes Unique and Super Elite instead. Note we could possibly use the Epic Fragments in the future for very special / unique potions or vastly increasing the duration etc.

 

The key is to make Composing worthwhile, while minimizing the impact on Potion Inventors and Buff Sellers. I realize the formula's make it look a little complex, however this will all be behind the scenes when it is implemented. It does however make it easier to work out what would be best in regards to the required Fragments / Gold when planning it out

[Bleltch]

 

The key is to make Composing worthwhile, while minimizing the impact on Potion Inventors and Buff Sellers.

 

Have you given any thought to how its going to affect the rest of the game. The items left selling in the auction house are going cost more. The game's going to get even more expensive, driving away even more players.

[Leos3000]

 

I've had a look over everyone's comments for far and the general feeling I'm getting is this:

 

1) Don't increase the skill levels available from the initial suggestion, but instead add new skills which can be only obtained via Composing.

 

2) Reduce the gold cost to ensure it is more of an item sink.

 

3) Remove Epic Fragments and re-work the formulas so it includes Unique and Super Elite instead. Note we could possibly use the Epic Fragments in the future for very special / unique potions or vastly increasing the duration etc.

 

The key is to make Composing worthwhile, while minimizing the impact on Potion Inventors and Buff Sellers. I realize the formula's make it look a little complex, however this will all be behind the scenes when it is implemented. It does however make it easier to work out what would be best in regards to the required Fragments / Gold when planning it out

 

1. That would be better, or do a combination of some of the skills being a little higher with unique skills

 

2. Definitely! reduce the gold cost greatly should be about sinking items not gold (most hunts anymore I break even or come out behind on the gold I get)

 

3. I Like the idea of most of the normal pots not having Epic items and just having a few very special pots that use epics.

 

Last I would add to this for the overall game economy and to sink the most items is to unbound items made for an individual and just make specific combinations that can be made thus giving the pots a searchable name. Otherwise people will gladly sink common and rare items for bound potions, but reluctantly sink LE, SE and Crystalline items.

 

The biggest driving factor behind this idea was to create the opportunity for more LE realm based events. If the items are bound this slows down the process a lot thus slowing activity.

[Egami]

Alright, people are posting faster than I can read (good sign), so... going to stop and give input up to this point. Stopped back at around page 5, in case people are wondering. Here are my 45 cents so far (inflation you know):

 

I'm all for any idea that dumps stam and sinks gold. Explanation: Duh!

 

I 100% approve of all potions being bound. Explanation: you do it or you don't. I think this cuts down on secondary effects for the non-monetary system (ie, buff sales, potion creating, etc) already in place. Grant it, that's not necessarily a good thing.

 

Based on them being bound, I'd like to see a VL factor involved in the gold cost. Explanation (?): I'm not going to math-head that idea at present, but what I would like to see are "alternatives" to buff purchasing mostly for lower level players. This is equally relevant for low level creature-murdering players as for those who GvG, etc. I think, whatever the difference is in the formula between gold a 900 level gets vs a 50 level on a hunt should be included in the equation at the same ratio. I do realize that this doesn't rule out a 900 level giving their 50 level guildies gold... but I do think it's a logical acquisition adjustment based on the fact that they are bound.... and a gold sink is a gold sink.

 

I was full on 100% for there being some type of ability to combine (for example) LE fragments into Epic, until Pardoux made a comment. Explanation: That comment made me realize that I was really against Epic fragments being included at all. In short, too many negative secondary effects. I think Epics need to continue to flow into the game and drive down FSP prices, not the other way around. That said, I'm still for combinations. I guess I would exclude Epics all together, but... the Inferno Hammer is still boggling my brain... ah well... it's used in a Recipe, for what? I don't remember, lol.

 

I would exclude SE items from the equation, despite comments to the contrary. Explanation: I only see price increases across the board, people pay for locs, and people from all levels want that medal. Increase in competition is unnecessary and probably detrimental to the game.

 

As far as Crystalline items are concerned, I would not make a special section for them but rather reclassify them as Legendary Crystalline. Explanation: After all, Chompers are some of the few things that actually continue to spawn in the "old" idea of a Legendary Event. It would also serve the purpose for those wishing to be able to do "something" with those items. Durability at 0 would not work, but... hey, somewhere there's a point.

 

For those complaining (notice I didn't say whining) about the fact that the original idea on this was an item dump and they don't like the fact that a gold sink has been included... I really have nothing to say except for the fact that you can always use that drop button, not to mention continue to use the preference option that saves your bp spaces already.

 

The major benefits I see from this are:

 

It adds another aspect to the game that some will be interested in and some won't. If you're not, that's fine... after all, anti-PvPers still seem to think that stealing gold via mass genocide of defenseless creatures is somehow more noble than stealing it from murderous thieves. Look on the plus side... some will enjoy it.

 

It might inspire some more teamwork in this social-networking game which is the only thing that holds it together. I could see myself helping out lower levels to make their potions by sending them my "useless" items. Perhaps, perhaps....

 

To HCS: thanks for moving forward on the idea. Most of us understand some adjustment will be necessary. You know that not everybody will be pleased... ah well...

 

Prospeorus smacking everybody... looking forward to seeing how it all pans out (o0

[koenvdv]

 

I've had a look over everyone's comments for far and the general feeling I'm getting is this:

 

1) Don't increase the skill levels available from the initial suggestion, but instead add new skills which can be only obtained via Composing.

 

2) Reduce the gold cost to ensure it is more of an item sink.

 

3) Remove Epic Fragments and re-work the formulas so it includes Unique and Super Elite instead. Note we could possibly use the Epic Fragments in the future for very special / unique potions or vastly increasing the duration etc.

 

The key is to make Composing worthwhile, while minimizing the impact on Potion Inventors and Buff Sellers. I realize the formula's make it look a little complex, however this will all be behind the scenes when it is implemented. It does however make it easier to work out what would be best in regards to the required Fragments / Gold when planning it out

 

 

My suggestions:

 

1) Currently I find that there are more then enough buffs in this game. The biggest problem is that they might compete against the current inventable pots. So either the price has to be higher or the level lower. But stil that would be dangerous since people want the best and are willing to pay more for it. I believe it is better to make pots out of the higher buffs that currently are not obtainable from pots.

 

2) Not reduce the gold, but more like make them avaible for lower people at a good price. Personaly I think if you want to have top product, then you got to pay top price. Since the value is not linear to its level, the price shouldn't be to. Thats why I suggested a different equation for time and price a few posts above.

 

3) Keep them all but give chances on getting fragments depending what type they are.

[Belaric]

This whole thread has me swearing at my keyboard. (I type like Charlie Brown)

 

Ignoring the mathematics - because I'll get a brain tumour trying to reactivate anything beyond basic arithmetic in my grey matter.

 

Forget Common items. No Way should they be used to gain upscale potions. Or used to buy common fragments that could then be converted to rare converted to unique etc. And why use epic fragments? Just to winnow out the excess Inferno Hammers in the game? As someone has pointed out- there has already been a comical rise in AH prices for Inferno hammers and the elemental javs and Hammers. On speculation about this system. This gives us a small taste of potential consequences should this go live. There is and has always been a good thing to do with common items - throw them the eff away. Ditto useless excess quest items - giving something for these things really is something for nothing. Don't do it. The original idea was to give people an incentive to dump overflow of legendary items as I recall, and perhaps give a purpose to elite and super elite items.

 

No bonus for burning forged items for fragments. Just base it on item type - if someone wants to sacrifce a forged item - their choice. 

 

Unintended consequences in the FS economy and game. There are many - Lupp0 did a good job of showing a few. How will this effect potion makers? IF all items remain guild bound will this cause the dominant guilds to become even more dominant as they wil be able to offer 'full service' potion depots with all composing pots available to members 24/7? (Depending upon the final format implemented of course - and god knows what that will turn into) Is that desirable? (Is it possible? We don't know yet, but there is very little that top guilds cannot become tremendously efficient at given incentive) Will this reduce the potion market generally as certain guilds will have no further demand for independednt operators, depending on the potions allowed to be created? Will that effect the need for farmers? What happens once the current excess of hoarded LE items are gone? Does this lead to scavenging for LE being the primary way to get composing fragments in future and therefore become a market dominated by the most skilled scavengers out there? Seems a reasonable prospect. Or will we have more LE events? How realistic can we be about those happening more often given HCS workload at present - I'd like to see how FS content/event frequency alters now BG has finished the early level restructuring job before putting my eggs in the 'there will be enough LE events' basket.

 

Hi Hoof.

 

Composing only skills would be cool. If they are in the pipeline and not rushed out and unbalancing - another headache! Remove common AND epic. Or cap common item created pots at like 150 max, so low level players could make/use them/benefit, but not so common items can be utilised on their own to create anything over level 175 pots. It would devalue other forms of potion too much, even guild bound. Absolutely no need for new uber level pots. We get them from globals readily enough, and donating needs to have some remaining incentive. Unless the increase in power is compensated for by shorter duration, as was suggested - 350KE for 10 mins I think I saw - that would be an interesting trade off.

 

Reducing gold cost would be good as the original idea was not for a gold sink. A pot that is effectively costing 12FSP's worth of gold (as someone pointed out earlier) and takes 20 hours to make isn't going to be very attractive.... unless of course you can be making 20 at once... (once gold cost is reduced) is that to be possible? How many potions can be made at once? One at a time, or multiple of same type simultaneously? Or could each guild member make one different style potion simultaneously? There is a mechanic that needs some explaining. The fragments don't take up space - the made potions presumably do. Do they get dumped into guild store, or personal backpack upon being made?

 

If the potions are unbound it will be pandemonium in the markets. I would say if this is to go ahead start off with guild bound and see the effect on the game for a month or two. Then see how people have adjusted and if there is a desire to see some/all unbound.

 

Gah. This just makes me want to go out and smash some looms.

 

 

edit: saw egami's post - yes this is a good idea in adding another feature to the game that some may adore and others ignore. It will be interesting to see how the details evolve as a result of our feedback. Thanks hoof.

[Morbaeus]

What about using composing to introduce some of the skills that have yet to be introduced? Skills such as Immobilize Titan, etc? This would create a good reason to sink the gold into composing.

[grimnok]

 

3) Remove Epic Fragments and re-work the formulas so it includes Unique and Super Elite instead. Note we could possibly use the Epic Fragments in the future for very special / unique potions or vastly increasing the duration etc.

 

The key is to make Composing worthwhile, while minimizing the impact on Potion Inventors and Buff Sellers. I realize the formula's make it look a little complex, however this will all be behind the scenes when it is implemented. It does however make it easier to work out what would be best in regards to the required Fragments / Gold when planning it out

 

 

Commons probably shouldn't be included at all.  You can fill up your backpack with a FI 1k pot, and a few hundred (or thousand) gold scavenging @ 1 gold.

[Tazarian]

I haven't had the chance to read all the posts but, this looks good from what I've had a chance to scan threw.