179 replies to this topic

[Vladimir00]

 

That actually makes more sense I think - that would make the example look as following (working out the increase based on the total stats)

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1%)

Attack: +906 / +905

Damage: +2732 / +2731

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2%)

Attack: +924 / +923

Damage: +2750 / +2749

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3%)

Attack: +943 / +941

Damage: +2769 / +2767

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5%)

Attack: +964 / +997

Damage: +2790 / +2803

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10%)

Attack: +992 / +1067

Damage: +2818 / +2893

 

That seems reasonable...

 

 

Yeah... that way you're not having to use a different system for each stat.

Edited by Vladimir00, 11 December 2013 - 18:31.

[Hoofmaster]

Yeah... that way you're not having to use a different system for each stat.

 

It would work more like the current system, but be more worthwhile at higher levels that way I think. So basically working out the total item stats, multiply them by the percentage and apply them evenly across the item (or use the old calculation if that works out to be more - which it will at lower levels).

[Vladimir00]

It would work more like the current system, but be more worthwhile at higher levels that way I think. So basically working out the total item stats, multiply them by the percentage and apply them evenly across the item (or use the old calculation if that works out to be more - which it will at lower levels).

 

Exactly.

One thing you'll have to decide is if the system should take the item's current craft level into account (meaning items with better craft level have more total stats, and therefore benefit slightly more), or if it would just assume either "perfect" or "uncrafted" for anything you forge, and go off of those numbers.

 

If the forge bases the bonus stats on the item's current craft level, the hell forge bonuses could actually change if the craft level were improved (unless they're "locked" once the item is fully upgraded, meaning it'll be important to craft before you forge). I'm also not sure whether or not the "epic craft" buff would have an effect on this.

Edited by Vladimir00, 11 December 2013 - 19:05.

[maf22]

 

That actually makes more sense I think - that would make the example look as following (working out the increase based on the total stats)

 

Upgrade 1: (+5 / 1%)

Attack: +906 / +905

Damage: +2732 / +2731

 

Upgrade 2: (+10 / 2%)

Attack: +924 / +923

Damage: +2750 / +2749

 

Upgrade 3: (+15 / 3%)

Attack: +943 / +941

Damage: +2769 / +2767

 

Upgrade 4: (+25 / 5%)

Attack: +964 / +997

Damage: +2790 / +2803

 

Upgrade 5: (+50 / 10%)

Attack: +992 / +1067

Damage: +2818 / +2893

 

That seems reasonable...

 

i like this....  but also think we should cap the cost at level 1000 

[kalish]

I'm seeing a potential math error here. If you want to increase the stats of a 2-stat item by 10% total, you increase each stat by 10%, not 5%.

 

Example: Hypothetical Item A has stats of 1000 ATK and 2000 DMG, for a total of 3000 stat points. If you raise each stat by 10% you get 1100 ATK and 2200 DMG, a total of 3300 stat points, which is 10% above the original.

 

The question I'm seeing that I don't think has been answered is: for the example above, 10% of 3000 is 300, so full forging would add 300 stat points. Would they be equally distributed among the stats so you end up with 1150 ATK and 2150 DMG, or distributed proportionally so you end up with 1100 ATK and 2200 DMG (because ATK was 1/3 of the total and DMG was 2/3 of the total)?

Edited by kalish, 11 December 2013 - 19:09.

[Hoofmaster]

I'm seeing a potential math error here. If you want to increase the stats of a 2-stat item by 10% total, you increase each stat by 10%, not 5%.

 

Example: Hypothetical Item A has stats of 1000 ATK and 2000 DMG, for a total of 3000 stat points. If you raise each stat by 10% you get 1100 ATK and 2200 DMG, a total of 3300 stat points, which is 10% above the original.

 

The question I'm seeing that I don't think has been answered is: for the example above, 10% of 3000 is 300, so full forging would add 300 stat points. Would they be equally distributed among the stats so you end up with 1150 ATK and 2150 DMG, or distributed proportionally so you end up with 1100 ATK and 2200 DMG (because ATK was 1/3 of the total and DMG was 2/3 of the total)?

 

Vladimir00 is suggesting that we take the total stat points of the item (in your example 3000) and apply the percentage of that (eg 10%) evenly across the stats on the item - which would be 1150 Attack / 2150 Damage.

 

I think that makes sense and would work.

[Mister Doom]

Yes 10% split evenly is perfect. Doesn't change all that much from the current system then, aside from making higher level items a touch stronger.

[Kedyn]

Agreed on the splitting evenly - it's already computed that way in the current HF, so it wouldn't change much from the current system aside from a larger bonus. 

 

Vlad did have a valid point on craft of items - is the HF going to be based off of uncrafted or crafted. If it's based on crafted, can the total stats change if someone were to "recraft" the item ex from Good to Perfect? 

[Tastria]

By the way, thanks to Sleepysock for the example, I appreciated it!  As I see the general drift of the conversation with figures, formulas and costs, what would concern me is the thought that this will make the game easier.  An even playing field I have no trouble with, as in equitable costs for forging, I don't want to see equipment forged to the point where Hooftest is drooling in envy.  I just want to see the stats on existing equipment and future forgings. stay pretty much where they are.  The other thing is, aren't we pretty much chewing old soup at this point?  I've seen lots of variations on what needs to be done, but this is in the way of fine tuning the adjustment.  I think the die is pretty much cast now.

[Hoofmaster]

Agreed on the splitting evenly - it's already computed that way in the current HF, so it wouldn't change much from the current system aside from a larger bonus. 

 

Vlad did have a valid point on craft of items - is the HF going to be based off of uncrafted or crafted. If it's based on crafted, can the total stats change if someone were to "recraft" the item ex from Good to Perfect? 

 

The example I worked out before was based on it being applied to the crafted values - which I think worked ok? If the crafting changed on the item the stats would just automatically update.

[Pardoux]

Vladimir00 is suggesting that we take the total stat points of the item (in your example 3000) and apply the percentage of that (eg 10%) evenly across the stats on the item - which would be 1150 Attack / 2150 Damage.

 

I think that makes sense and would work.

 

I don't get this ? - Why would you split the percentage increments evenly across the item ?

 

Using your example of a Perfect Pounamu Retribution .. Perfect / Unforged is 887 / 2713, for a stat total of 3600 points.

 

Under the equal distribution, the stats would go up to 1067 / 2893

Under 10% / stat, the stats would go up to 975 / 2985 

Both give an overall 10% boost to stat points, but I know which looks better to me ... 

Edited by Pardoux, 11 December 2013 - 20:23.

[Hoofmaster]

I don't get this ? - Why would you split the percentage increments evenly across the item ?

 

Using your example of a Perfect Pounamu Retribution .. Perfect / Unforged is 887 / 2713, for a stat total of 3600 points.

 

Under the equal distribution, the stats would go up to 1067 / 2893

Under 10% / stat, the stats would go up to 975 / 2985 

Both give an overall 10% boost to stat points, but I know which looks better to me ... 

 

The way the Hell Forge currently works, the stats are distributed evenly so it would be to keep it consistent.

[Pardoux]

The way the Hell Forge currently works, the stats are distributed evenly so it would be to keep it consistent.

 

Why ? - the game evolves all the time. Established processes are changed if there are better options available. I think the allocation would be much better served on a "per stat" basis - and would lead to more people forging items too.

 

After all, on a predominantly damage item, the stat you want boosting most is damage - not an even split

[Leos3000]

Why ? - the game evolves all the time. Established processes are changed if there are better options available. I think the allocation would be much better served on a "per stat" basis - and would lead to more people forging items too.
 
After all, on a predominantly damage item, the stat you want boosting most is damage - not an even split

This is true. Its also why I prefer items that are 70/30 split as I like to maximize my desired stat.

[Hoofmaster]

This is true. Its also why I prefer items that are 70/30 split as I like to maximize my desired stat.

 

It would maximise it sure, but I think it would be better to keep it evenly distributed so it doesn't skew items that are already heavily focused on one stat over another.

[Pardoux]

It would maximise it sure, but I think it would be better to keep it evenly distributed so it doesn't skew items that are already heavily focused on one stat over another.

 

Isn't that the whole point of those items anyway ? - they were "designed" to be heavily skewed so the hell-forging should reflect that too ?

[Egami]

So how does the following values look for the maximum gold cost of Hell Forging:

 

Upgrade 1) 75,000

Upgrade 2) 150,000

Upgrade 3) 300,000

Upgrade 4) 600,000

Upgrade 5) 1,500,000

 

Total cost: 3,300,000 gold

 

+ the 2 Fallen Sword Points per level as before.

 

Lots of great info, suggestions, etc. Still undecided on my vote, but I'm sure some consensus will come about anyway, lol.

 

My gut feeling is that 3.3 million is way too low. Most are focusing here on stats, which is good as that "might" drive some more forging, though I have my doubts. Also want to remind people that single player gold gain is NOT completely a valid analysis since a lot of forging can happen for Guild items.

 

My request:

 

I don't want to see the total gold cost reduction to full forging decrease by an amount that is above the 5th level of forging as costs currently stand.

 

Anything below that "might" be okay.

 

Maybe I missed something, but the 3.3 million cap in the above and last gold cost comment by Hoof, I would vote against it without any further thought. Seems to clearly be way too damaging to the FS economy.

Edited by Egami, 11 December 2013 - 21:48.

[Pardoux]

 

Maybe I missed something, but the 3.3 million cap in the above and last gold cost comment by Hoof, I would vote against it without any further thought. Seems to clearly be way too damaging to the FS economy.

 

I'm confused here - maybe I'm missing something ?

 

L1850 item, currently, costs 8,602,500 (+10 fsp) so, as far as I know, VERY little hell-forging is done and thus the gold gained from hunts stays in the game.

 

L1850 item (under the new proposal) would cost 3.3 million (+10 fsp) - that makes forging a much more attractive proposal (depending on stats of course) and thus would remove more gold from the game.

 

That's GOOD for the game economy, isn't it ?

 

What am I missing from your theory that it's BAD ?

[Gooner111]

Not going to comment on the math side of things... actually couldn't even if wanted to lol.  I stopped hellforging long ago. The cost outweighs the benefit. Even with the suggested reduced cost of 5m & 10 fsp will, at least for me, will likely not change my mind. 

 

As things stand with buffs and potions etc we dont NEED the extra stats. I like FF gear and would love to forge all my items but cost wise isn't worth it.  Majority of my leveling set cost few fsp each so why would I pay 10 times what the items cost me to forge them? 

 

Forging it all would be nice but as it stands I'd rather put my gold and FSP into more max stamina or something else more beneficial.  And if as hoped this change will have a bit of a gold sink effect then the overall forging cost increases!

[Mister Doom]

Not going to comment on the math side of things... actually couldn't even if wanted to lol.  I stopped hellforging long ago. The cost outweighs the benefit. Even with the suggested reduced cost of 5m & 10 fsp will, at least for me, will likely not change my mind. 

 

As things stand with buffs and potions etc we dont NEED the extra stats. I like FF gear and would love to forge all my items but cost wise isn't worth it.  Majority of my leveling set cost few fsp each so why would I pay 10 times what the items cost me to forge them? 

 

Forging it all would be nice but as it stands I'd rather put my gold and FSP into more max stamina or something else more beneficial.  And if as hoped this change will have a bit of a gold sink effect then the overall forging cost increases!

 

The new proposed cost is actually even lower gooner, down to just over 3 million I think?