102 replies to this topic

[acidic]

I am hoping the new game interface will be implemented soon and will eliminate many of the value adds that the helper scripts offer. Once basic game play is achieved, I think it would be great to see the developers engage the community about the features that the helper has offered for the past 2 years here (and longer in FS).

It has been said many times that the game should not rely on a 3rd party scripts to achieve functionality in the minds of the players. It is my opinion that the helper scripts have hurt both games as much as they have helped the games. By offering solutions to game functionality, the helper scripts have inadvertently removed the incentive to improve the games operations. In doing so, the helper has become essential for many users of both games. Now there is reliable evidence that variations of the helper script have been created which have given players unfair advantages in the specialized (and usually profitable) game elements. So we have come to an impasse where the community calls upon the developers to act on those who abuse scripts, while simultaneously defending the use of other scripts that do not offer an advantage, but instead streamline and simplify the overly complicated mechanics.

So, how is this impasse broken?

There is really only one way I can think of, which is to ban scripts altogether since there appears to be no way to properly identify which script a players is using (legal, or illegal). However, something of this nature could not be dealt with, with such a hard-line stance at this moment in time. The reaction would be terrible (as YML illustrates above).

If filtering out greasemonkey were a consideration on the table, then there would need to be a serious discussion and commitment to address the needs of the two games. I personally hope that this is a consideration, because it would tremendously help both games for a multitude of reasons. First and foremost player retention would jump through the roof. Both games loose a portion of new players early on due to confusion and lack of instant gratification long before they become aware of the script. I have personally introduced several friends to the game and asked them to give it a try. These friends are gamers and their responses have mostly centered around the controls of the game are not intuitive and that they lost interest before investing emotionally in the game experience. Basically, the game concept was fascinating but the game mechanics were clunky and they did not have interest in having to learn a new system. Basically, players don't want to have to have to LEARN how to play. They want to be able to jump right in and KNOW how to play.

Beyond offering functionality to ease new players in, the helper increases functionality for committed players, and allows them to streamline the game experience, which helps to further retain the player longer than they would have likely stayed without the helper.

The real issue, is that these two games are at their most fundamental level not designed with ease of use as the primary objective. They are designed with a very strong architecture and series of conditions that provide a strong foundation which the growth of the game can stand upon. The strict isolation of elements allow additional features to be introduced without a strong amount of regard for the impact on other game elements. The result of this focus on structure is that the game is very stable (even if the severs aren't). However, FUN, which is what is really been sold here, and what players come for, is sometimes overlooked by what seems to be tunnel vision coupled with procrastination and tempered with stubbornness.

The greatest example of all three characteristics standing is the way of enjoyment for the player's experience is on-going battle over the purist's mind stone. In this on-going struggle, developers have demonstrated through lack of action, that would rather force the players to click through a redundant cycles of screens 574+ times to build a single stack of ammo so that they can then, on that 575th click, finally start to do what we are here to do, blast some monsters to smithereens and let some of the frustrations of their day at work or maybe school, or medical tests at the hospital be forgotten for a short time. When you get home from the stresses of life and get on the computer to PLAY a game, who on earth would want to do 574 clicks (which at a second a click = 9.5 minutes roughly, which easily can turn into 30+ minutes for players with slower connections). We come to play not to work. On this extreme example of dysfunctional practice, developers have clung to the existing system because the stone process stands to support the later introduction of orbs which will likely increase the creation process to 750+ clicks. Structure aside, the assembly process adds an interesting role playing element that serves to increase interest in the game - at least on paper it would seem that way. In practice, the process stands as a major irritant that ruins the experience of PLAY. While a solution is considered (stacking empty crystals which was agreed to well over 9 months ago but has yet to be implemented), a simpler solution exists, that only sacrifices the novelty of the current system, and replaces it with one that would not cause purists like myself to delay a hunt for an extra day or two cause I don't want to mess around with making stones. When this easy (coder free) solution is offered (to simply make the cheaply made stones available for purchase at stores for a slightly higher cost and in doing so eliminate almost 50% of the clicks required and returning 5-15 minutes of time to the player so they can do what they came to do - PLAY), the response is outright rejection, as this solution interferes with the role play value of making the stones and more importantly, it would disrupt the cleanliness and order existent in the shops, which will apparently begin to look cluttered with 2 more items in them (and worse when 2 additional items need to be added when orbs are introduced). I have to ask myself then why all stackable objects are not reduced to one icon with a drop down menu that allows you to specify the number of items you want to buy? Surely something like this would cut the number items down to half of present numbers and would not have required a complete redesign of the store interface when stackable items were first offered.

I know I sound jaded, and I might be. Being jaded does not mean I am wrong though, and I think this is really the best example of the short-sighted approach to responding to the needs of the customer. The request is acknowledged, but action is delayed or denied to favor the existing structure and the long term plan. The biggest issue in this case, is that if the system is not working at the second tier, how on earth will it improve at what should be a more involved, more complex third tier?

I have supposed much about the personalities of the developers in this commentary so far but I feel justified in my response because it is based on years interacting with the various members of the and have steadily watched players FUN be sacrificed in the name coding and functionality. When they are finally ready to address the FUN, or at least the functional, it take copious amounts of time to see implemented.

This is where things with the helper become an issue. Every time the helper provides a work around, it largely releases the developers from any sense of immediacy in addressing it for the game as a whole. This has been beneficial for the developers who have been able to spend time on other endeavors, like launching a alternate version of the primary game with some additional game elements, and working on other up-and-coming games. While this has been great for the growth, it has at a detriment to the games which have been under improved for so many years now. Furthermore, the community has become so reliant on scripting that some individuals have taken the practice further and implemented scripts that take away further from the FUN factor for the honest players.

The bottom line is that procrastination has, (as it usually does) built up a pile of poo so high that no one can see the how it can possibly be addressed. What is worse, is the pile of poo has become a living thing which exists like a symbiotic parasite persistently causing developers to continue telling themselves they will get to the corrections tomorrow. Worse still, this parasite has (I suspect) become an unfair burden on the players who came to PLAY, but now must provide a fixes for the shortcomings in game play so that other players may have some fun. Through lack of customer satisfaction, the developers have somehow made the players go to work for them and without pay.

The only way out as I see it is if all parties involved openly acknowledge the plain to see facts. The developers would need to take a look at the helper and implement its features, many of which should be simple. Others might require a bit of time, but and some features might need to be lost. This would mandate an open and honest dialog with the players of the games, and perhaps a more involved survey than we typically are presented with which allows player to review every single feature of the helper. This is most important because I suspect many of its features are years old and not going to be at the fore front of people's minds until they are missing.

The next step would be to pick and stick to a date in time when all the helper features will be implemented. It might take 6 months, but when that day comes, the game should be able to stand alone and have a check implemented which halts the use of any automated scripts.

The Final and absolute most essential step, will be for players to be more involved over functionality feedback and the developers would need to be highly receptive to player feedback. This would mean changing the sticking to your guns practice on some issue and it would mean reacting in a more prompt manner than we have seen.

I don't think any of it is easy, but I do think it is essential for the enjoyment of these games, and also as a change in the company culture. Interactions over the internet are always difficult. HCS has grown out of what I understand to be a group of intelligent friends who made some games that were unique and valued by players. In recent years, they have obviously has a good degree of success and reason would suggest that they will experience even more with the way things are looking if they can ever get their other tardy project released. As they grow they are going to be entering a fan base of players who have to date passed over the low tech games that HCS has specialized in. These players are going to be drawn to their projects for a whole different set of reasons. These fans will spend much more money as a group, but they will also be much less tolerant of short comings in game play functionality including ease of use and (I hate the term myself) instant gratification, their tolerance will quickly turn destructive if the way HCS treats the community is not changed.

I want to be clear when I say treatment of the community. First, I need to say that on individual issues, I think they are pretty fair, responsive, and accessible. I know I have personally tested the waters and challenged their tolerance on occasion. I have subsequently made several apologies privately and publicly for speaking inappropriately to them, and have done so because it was appropriate that I do so once my temper had cooled. It was not out of fear that I might be terminated or any such silliness. Although I argue and bicker with them, I hope they recognize some of the value of my feedback (which is why I have not been banned from the forums yet and why I continue to offer it). So when I speak of HCS' treatment of their game community, what I am saying is that they need to appreciate the fact that many of us also have jobs where we need to deal with demanding customers. We have jobs where we see the demands of our customers change over time and when they demands change so must the service we offer. If we don't change to meet the demands, our businesses' fail or our employers fire us and generally life quality diminishes. When we do adapt, and do it quickly our customers are happy and they send their friends to see us, they come back for more and trust us when we raise prices.

The seller/buyer relationship is fragile and must be respected. Not being responsive, or continually postponing the to-do list is going to test a customer's loyalty no matter how good a person the seller is or how much the buyer might like them. Sigma is a prime example of this as I see once dedicated players disappearing at an alarming pace. There may be numbers to suggest increases in activity, but these don't always recognize the loss loyalty from more experienced players. A player who plays 300 levels, surely must earn more than 100 players who make it to level 5 or 10,000 that simply register. Unless of course the plan is to sell the company and the number of subscribers is more valuable than the value of the types of subscribers. What the increased numbers fail to recognize are facts like that I have not donated a penny in over 13 months since I first said publicly I would not reach into my pocket until mind stones were implemented in an easier to use fashion because they offered little redeeming value as they were. I have nudged gently for over a year and have been fully supported by the community on my view. The promises that have persisted over this year often feel unforgivable because of their lack of fulfillment. What is strangest is that by placing stones in a store 13 months ago, the game would have likely retained more players (at least purists who don't uses scripts like myself and others I know), it would have resulted in a more supportive community member in myself, as I would not have come to such high levels of frustration over the matter, and probably spent the last year praising the move. Certainly, trust would have been earned as a promise was kept. Probably most important to the developers though, is that I would not have had to keep my word and would have spent another $400-$500 here like I had the previous year. My daughter should probably thank them for her new iPad.

I know this is all a bit much for a yes or no question, but the question is not a simple matter that should be answered as yes or no. A vote to keep scripts empowers the the game to not receive necessary updates in a timely manner, and vote against scripts could destroy the player base if the not done correctly.

For anyone who actually bothered to read through all my dribble above I thank you for sticking with it and apologize for my wordiness. What I have said, needed to be said, even if just for my peace of mind. This topic header, being the source of all evil (in my opinion) provided the best location to get it out I could find.




For anyone who read the first paragraph then scrolled down I will summarize saying, "Yes! Get greasemonkey out of this game, BUT do it responsibly by implementing the valuable portions of it to the official game platform as should have been a long long time ago, and in the future, respond quicker and don't give need for it again.

[EdTheHead]

WOW Cid I think I'll come back later when i have time to read all that

[Sakuliver]

+1

I just hope that not everybody is going to quote it

[supermum]

I totally agree with acidic here..I have read every word, and wish I could have written it myself

I am not a purist so the mind stones does not affect my gameplay, but the helper does , in this game and in FS...if the features it offers were implemented in the games I would be the first to turn off the helper, but I am totally dependent of it as it is now, as I am on a slow server and generally suffer from being slow..
the helper is a must for me, and without it I would not have carried on in FS for 900+ levels, and I would probably not even have started playing this game at all had I not know that helper would see me through.

I also run my owen business, and know all about keeping customers happy, and hope HCS will see the importance in keeping their loyal long term customers happy too.

well spoken acidic

[ecolitan]

+ do-not-kill list

I have always maintained that this should not be allowed any more than auto-kill. It allows you to blindly stab numbers (or click a mouse) and AUTOMATICALLY keep you from making a mistake. My personal opinion is that anyone that has ever added a mob or player to that list has cheated as it allows you to bypass a game mechanic. In mobs it allows you to attack all without concern that you should slow down to look if the one you can't kill is in the stack and the SCRIPT will abort that attack that would kill you. In PvP it allows you to program those you would lose to in so that you can blindly attack all players you see and the SCRIPT will cancel your attack against the person you would lose to. Do not tell me HCS has approved this as we don't know that. I know for a FACT that they have not examined every part of the script (been told, and can prove in some situations that they have ordered things removed once made aware of them).

As for the rest - why should we need to make everyone stop using it? That's not anyone's job other than cows. It is enough to claim that scripting SHOULD be illegal in general. I will NOT use any scripts in profitable portions of the game - even when that puts me at a strong competitive disadvantage. Sure, I use Faction Inventory etc as they are nice and help organize things. The issue with the scripts is that once some are allowed it becomes clear the cows won't act on any. Go back and read the long post above - it's pretty clear it advocates adding the most important coding portions PRIOR to banishing external scripts. Then go back and read badlands OP - he didn't advocate he started a discussion with a question.

If scripts, SSHelper included, provide a tangible benefit to gameplay speed in ANY competitive environment they are against the rules. Simple, done. Clearly they do. Now, there are fine lines and unfortunately these fine lines have become blurred over the two years that HCS has been remiss in coding its own game. But, that's no reason not to ask if we shouldn't get to where we should be.

It's gotten to the point that since HCS will not follow through on their promise to terminate players that could be proven to be using scripts to increase speed that I would rather play the broken game interface HCS seems satisfied with than allow ANY scripts at all anymore. I hope it doesn't come to that, and that HCS can actually code an interface that is more user-friendly. But, given what's going on in this game I'd rather see ALL scripts stopped rather than allow the players that currently still run them to continue profiting from HCS' ignoring it.

[joejim]

it is called playing the game yourself when u have the computer doing 99% of the playing?

[EdTheHead]

it is called playing the game yourself when u have the computer doing 99% of the playing?

Not really kind of pointless playing a game if you're only needed 1% of the time

[EdTheHead]

That script is amazingly well done, available to all, and isn't game breaking in the slightest. Just a thought.

I disagree and many who've hunted the behemoth only to have one of the super scripters show up after they've killed 600 and then all of sudden can't even hit one would also disagree, So i would prefer to see HCS implement all the features players want and then ban all scripts.

[ecolitan]

I think if Greasemonkey was banned from gameplay(not saying it should be) then all of the functions from SS2 Helper should be implemented into the game(with the option to disable of course) and it should be noted on many pages that the SS2 team would like to thank DKwizard and any others who have been working on the SS2 Helper for nearly 2 years. That script is amazingly well done, available to all, and isn't game breaking in the slightest. Just a thought.

It doesn't have to be game-breaking to be illegal, it just needs to automate something, like... say... which players and mobs you WANT to hit. So you can not think and just attack everything and have a SCRIPT keep you from being killed....

I agree that HCS should incorporate many of the Helper shortcuts/features into the game. I also agree that they should thank the players that developed the ideas. BUT, that doesn't mean scripting is ok. As Ed already pointed out, there is NO QUESTION that scripts are being used and that they are inextricably linked with the Helper. These scripts are responsible for massive profits and faction recruiting in the game. It's now proven they've been used by a select group of players. And a very large number of very loyal players are totally disturbed by the behavior and lack of response by HCS.

[ecolitan]

I do almost all things with Google Chrome without any scripts whatsoever. I can hunt just fine. Any faction that really teams up and works hard can beat a scripter any day. Again, not saying scripting is okay, but just saying that BH scripting is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

[Insert Flame Here]

BULL youknowwhat.

Our faction has some of the best Titan hunters from FS. We have extremely good teamwork. 1 or 2 players running scripts make it impossible for us to get more than a few kills. Repeatedly this was observed. Did we beat scripters sometimes? Sure. But, it dramatically tilted the playing field and rewarded a select group of players. We've submitted tickets and done all we can. Now, we just watch in dismay as the scripters are rewarded. We now know exactly what they do since one piece of the scripting puzzle was made public.

It's not a big deal? Guess that depends on how you view fairplay and rules....

[ecolitan]

HCS has okayed the SS2 Helper script and the FS Helper one. And honestly I don't think making you unable to kill a certain thing is that important or puts any players at much of a disadvantage. And at NO point did I say scripting is okay. I am leaving my opinion out of this because either way I will get flamed, I simply stated that if it were to go one way than measures would need to be taken to make sure that players would still have access to the great things the helper provides.

Actually nobody from HCS has truly examined the Helper script. Many parts have been removed AFTER supposed approval was gained since HCS didn't know it did certain things. The ability to not kill a certain thing may or may not put players at much of an advantage or disadvantage. It sure as heck automates a DECISION. Not even an action but a friggin decision the player should be making. Can it provide 1 extra kill in an SF and get tokens? I don't even care if the answer is no, it automates a DECISION. What the heck are we doing if the script is going to make our decisions in the game for us?

I don't think ANYONE is arguing that MANY (not all) of the things the Helper provides should have LONG AGO been implemented by HCS. It's actually pathetic that they haven't. And, they still should be implemented. acidic had a long post basically saying HCS was now boxed in and probably had to provide most of these things before you could axe GM use. But, by allowing a third part script to provide these things it allows code that HCS does not control to be used in the game. Bad business idea, bad game plan and the results are coming home to roost. The Helper turns out to not be even close to the ONLY script put out and being used....