81 replies to this topic

[Belaric]

Composed potions unbalance the game. In my opinion.

 

Access to composed potions unbalances it further, as very few currently have access to the uber pots at the end of the rainbow. In terms of entire game population. 

 

But hey - we didn't complain when wave after wave of uber pots were to be had for cold hard cash!

 

Ok - we did complain a bit and said over and over again to HCS that if you give us more, we will demand more.

 

But that was for money. Which at least keeps HCS alive.

 

Now HCS has given us ultra pots for in game currency. For gold that can be gained by the patient. And frags that can be hunted and gained  by the patient. Including HUGE Co-at/def and  Smashing Hammer pots.

 

I am concerned about a two tier FS universe.

 

One in which the haves are able to access top level composing potions and crush any game challenge.

 

The have nots either have to pay for those potions or struggle in their shadow.

 

I'm not sure this makes the game more attractive to new players.

 

Especially if calls to 'make the game harder' are listened to. 

 

Harder for whom?

 

Harder for the guy who has access to every composed potion, or harder for someone thinking 175 skills are actually useful? Harder for the newbie? 

 

Of course we could all be patient and get ourselves these great potions that make everything easy.

 

This can take years.

 

But how does that make the game harder overall? If everyone eventually gets access to uber potions?

 

You cannot have the two things - game harder, and composing ultra pots, exist at the same time. Something, in my opinion, has to give. I am happy to be corrected. 

 

HCS is interested in a form of the game that yields maximum return. As is their right. They are developing a mobile interface that I hope will massively expand the game population.

 

If there is a time to ask to nerf either buff effects, or to limit buff ranges from composed potions, that time is now, because once mobile players come online (which will be awesome), the game as it stands will be largely set in stone. I think.

 

So, what do you think?

 

Should composed buffs be limited to lower maximums?

 

Should some buff effects be nerfed in or out of composing? (Poll for that later if this one gains traction)

 

Or is the game good as it is?

 

Speak!

Edited by Belaric, 10 March 2015 - 05:57.

[Pardoux]

Composing potions have gone too high ... Some, whilst high level, aren't game changing, but others most definitely are.

 

The game lacks challenge at the moment - and these uber potions mean that even a blind monkey could level successfully with no effort whatsoever. Making the game more challenging for those with "only" L175 buffs would still make it ridiculously easy for those with mega-damage-boosting potions and making it hard for them would make it a nightmare for those without .. The balance of the game is outta whack ..

 

(Smashing Hammer, as an example, at Level 450, distilled to L517, DOUBLES the damage dealt with 4 sets equipped - how is that NOT overpowered)

 

1. The uber-potions as a result of donations to the cows - fair enough - the cows need money to live and to provide us with the game

 

2. The uber-potions from the global events - anyone can participate in them and a lot of players get them for the minimum investment (thankfully quite a few players go above the minimum, in some cases considerably above the minimum)

 

3. The uber-potions from composing - this is a much more limited availability. OK, those that can make the uber-potions have put in a lot of time and effort to get to the stage where they can make them (although I suspect in some cases scripting has been involved too - but that's another story) - but the problem with composing is that it got diluted somewhere. Composing should be a personal activity only IMO. It was expanded to allow guild-tagging which is ok, I suppose, but then players got inventive and started visiting guilds to sell their wares. The whole process was meant to prevent sales.

 

I still think that, if composers want to travel to sell their potions, then they should meet the same requirements as players who titan hunt and GvG - they should be there a week beforehand - but that's been, so far, ruled out by BG. I'd love to see what the 2 big guys feel about that - Hoof and Cowboy - but, for now, it's permitted.

 

 

Back to the opening post tho ...

I agree that, if this remains unchecked, we have another scenario of "those who have" and "those who have not".

 

Ok, the argument could be made that anyone can get to those higher echelons in composing - and that's true - but that doesn't alter the fact that some of these potions are just ridiculously overpowered and should be lowered.

[sweetlou]

Composed potions unbalance the game. In my opinion.

In my opinion, they actually bring some balance to the game with the absurdly powerful global pots.

 

What needs to be reined in are the 24/7/365 online players who aren't doing benders but automating. Just watch the gold. It isn't a reloader.

[Belaric]

What needs to be reined in are the 24/7/365 online players who aren't doing benders but automating. Just watch the gold. It isn't a reloader.

Lou, that is a valid issue, but it isn't the one I'm pursuing.

 

Global pots are earned by everyone who participates. In a 4 day window. Composed pots can day by day be replicated. Globals that give sexy potions happen every other month at best.  And we just argued for quarterly at best. So it is not apples and apples in composed versus global potions. HCS has control over the supply of one, for a start. 

[sweetlou]

Global pots are earned by everyone who participates. In a 4 day window. Composed pots can day by day be replicated. Globals that give sexy potions happen every other month at best.  And we just argued for quarterly at best. So it is not apples and apples in composed versus global potions. HCS has control over the supply of one, for a start. 

Global pots can be earned by everyone, but only at a disproportionate rate when someone is automating the composing leveling process. That is my argument. If everyone were capable to do the same automation, there would be more or less no problem.

 

Your argument is that globals can't be compared to composed pots. I think they can. Firstly, how often do you use these pots and for what purpose? If you're sitting on a big stam bank you may only level once in a blue moon. Globals, in the rate that they're currently dispersed will be in ample supply for those players. Global pots' level 525 skills are obscenely overpowered and everyone knows it.

 

Now making composed pots at the highest levels requires huge amounts of fragments. We are just starting to see composers unable to keep up with the frag requirements, especially for SE, Legendary and Crystal frags. This has started to even the playing field ever so slightly. But the head start has been given to those who have automated the composing level process.

 

I think the LEVEL of composed pots is fine. To me it balances the insanely overpowered globals in cases where PvP, GvG and the Ladder are concerned. At least with 300ish level composed pots I have more of a chance against someone who is popping a 525 level global. We need the intermediate composing skill levels, otherwise it will be level 175 buffs vs level 525 globals basically.

[Belaric]

So your argument, which is at a tangent to mine as the OP, is that scripters who automate the composing process suck.

 

I agree.

 

But for the purposes of my argument, it does not mater how they get there, composing buffs, gained through honest graft or illicit script, still conspire to unbalance the game.

 

They are too high powered. Some limits would be nice.

 

I think making this argument about globals is a mistake also. It isn't about them. They deserve their own thread.

 

Composed potions are now being made 24/7. To order, and in some cases beyond the scope of globals. Global potions are not a problem. They are a fixed and known quantity to HCS, and most crucially - HCS controls the supply of global potions.

 

HCS has zero control over composed potions. Flinch 400? Seriously? It makes Eater of Time a walk in the park. Which is sad to see. But it can be made hand over fist right now. No waiting for it to appear in a global. 

 

Composed potions are great, but they are in danger of destroying too many other aspects of the game.

 

Earning buffs - why? You can compose them at lower levels. A 200 level character can now compose co-at 300. How many other skills are now redundant? You don't need to gain levels to access the best skills in the game anymore. You can compose your way there instead.

 

Why make a librarian 225 potion?  You can compose Librarian 300. Or have a guild composer make it for you.

 

Keeping it simple. Would you join a guild that has a SH 450, Co-at/def 350 potion maker versus one that does not?

 

If the designers of the game are supposed to create a challenge - should they create it for people with access to SH 450 (distilled), or those who just have SH 175? Which choice will be fairer?  

 

What are the designers to do in the face of such overwhelming buff odds?

 

Or should buffs be looked at again, and possibly altered?  

Edited by Belaric, 10 March 2015 - 08:37.

[yotwehc]

Why not just get rid of Unique/Legendary/Crystal/SE frags from the GE frag event award chests? Then, you would have the ability to still make the powerful composed pots but it will cost a pretty penny. Or just reduce the amount severely and load up commons and rares. Instead of 1,050/400/350/300, make it 100/40/35/30... This would correct how easily it is to obtain such powerful pots.

 

I think the upper limit is fine... the fact that it's so easy to acquire the frags to make them is the problem. On a regular global, you get 3-5 ruby pots... You should only get enough frags to make potions to make a similar number of equivalently powerful composed pots.

Edited by yotwehc, 10 March 2015 - 08:10.

[Belaric]

Making it harder to create the big potions would be cool. 

 

And would create more of a market for SE and legendary items.

 

It does come down to supply and demand, and there is a lot of supply of the supposedly tricky frags to make the highest powered potions.

 

If frags were rebalanced.... we'd have a lot of unhappy players. So the ideas for rebalancing, or changing frag global inputs should come from players, and from composers especially. And be agreed upon. So everyone in advance knew what was going to change and why. 

 

This thread is not villifying composers, it is pointing out the problem with game mechanics that has allowed composing to unbalance the game. I doubt much change will arrive anyway, but I thought I'd say this now, before the game potentially expands into a mobile market. My hope is that will lead to an explosion in the game that will leave us old timers in a distinct minority!!

[sweetlou]

Earning buffs - why? You can compose them at lower levels. A 200 level character can now compose co-at 300. How many other skills are now redundant? You don't need to gain levels to access the best skills in the game anymore. You can compose your way there instead.

Allowing lower level players to have better buffs than you and me is precisely what brings BALANCE to the game. Just because you or I have hit 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, more often doesn't allow us divinity to the best, highest level skills in the game anymore. Players shouldn't HAVE to level. It's boring to many. Our ability to wear gear that is superior in stats is the reward to xp leveling.

 

You seemed worried about the marketing of guilds because they don't have high level composers. Then make yourself more marketable. I've had a problem with guild size since day 1. It was my first topic in this forum. The whole game to date has been geared toward big guilds and leveling. That is what I'd like to see changed. Hooray for composing! Like anywhere else in the game keep the scripters at bay and it'll be fair. Everyone should have the same chance to compose.

 

Most importantly to HCS is that composing brings a new, much needed revenue stream. It takes gold, and that means FSP, to make potions. Even more important is that it shows more players logging on, and that gives the appearance of a healthier game. I think we all want that. And while we are at it let's hope the mobile market brings much sought after donating players.

[BadPenny]

Wait, now, I'm here every hour for my leveling trash pots.... I set an alarm..... That's as automated as an old school gal like me can get....  Does that make me part of the problem, too?  

 

Oh, and I didn't vote cuz I'm too stupid to understand the question, and I don't like admitting that I don't know something (uh oh, I just did that, didn't I?)

Edited by BadPenny, 10 March 2015 - 17:55.

[Placeboo]

edited.

Edited by Placeboo, 10 March 2015 - 18:42.

[yotwehc]

I'm Not ALWAYS online and I'm in the 50's. I could be in the high 50's if I did 30 xp pots but I'm too cheap. I assure you I use no scripts aside from helper. I imagine it would be easy to detect cheaters especially if potions are done on the hour every hour without fail. Although I can do 15-20 potions per day, my patterns are relatively random since I lose a few minutes here and there. I start shaking If more then an hour passes and I haven't collected my potions yet. Unhealthy addiction to the game indeed.

[RebornJedi]

Composing should of only had their own specific buffs from the start...

[BadPenny]

I'm Not ALWAYS online and I'm in the 50's. I could be in the high 50's if I did 30 xp pots but I'm too cheap. I assure you I use no scripts aside from helper. I imagine it would be easy to detect cheaters especially if potions are done on the hour every hour without fail. Although I can do 15-20 potions per day, my patterns are relatively random since I lose a few minutes here and there. I start shaking If more then an hour passes and I haven't collected my potions yet. Unhealthy addiction to the game indeed.

Relax, baby, breathe deep.  It will all be OK, I promise.....  

[Filletminion]

Think ahead 12 months when 200 players have level 50 to 60 composing....

[BadPenny]

I didn't even start till September, and I'm 90%+ to lvl 15.... I'm thinking I should be golden by Christmas, especially since I make *real* pots for myself and others.....  I like being able to mix and match skills for particular needs.  And I don't think they overpower me at all.... I do wish Uniques were easier to come by.... I get more drops from SE's (without FI, btw) than I do from any of the elites and champs you have to hunt for Uniques.... Hello, income stream for the new folk.... now to just get more bp space for the junk I need

[Windbattle]

no its harming the game immensely. The reasoning is that it makes it very very easy to do everything in the game. takes part of the challenge, if not all the challenge away. I love the argument that everyone has access to composing, therefore its fair. That is completely dishonest, because there is a huge gold sink that is needed in order to consistently level up composing and have access to the powerful potions.

 

I don't think composing is bad idea in conception, because it does nuke items from the game, which besides crystalline items, never go away from the game. If the player base isn't growing at a solid rate, that leads to over supply and devaluation of items .. based on simple demand / supply economics.

 

**Cough** This needs to be considered for epics as more and more and more come into the game. 

 

But the Global Frag Events are appeasing the high end composer ... but its putting way too many frags in the game as a whole. its trying to solve the problem by throwing money at it .. so to speak.

Edited by Windbattle, 11 March 2015 - 00:02.

[Windbattle]

Why not just get rid of Unique/Legendary/Crystal/SE frags from the GE frag event award chests? Then, you would have the ability to still make the powerful composed pots but it will cost a pretty penny. Or just reduce the amount severely and load up commons and rares. Instead of 1,050/400/350/300, make it 100/40/35/30... This would correct how easily it is to obtain such powerful pots.

 

I think the upper limit is fine... the fact that it's so easy to acquire the frags to make them is the problem. On a regular global, you get 3-5 ruby pots... You should only get enough frags to make potions to make a similar number of equivalently powerful composed pots.

 

Disagree Slightly ... the potions you can create are too powerful as it is. I think the frags should go up on them as well and reduction to GE events. if you do all 3 then maybe it can get balanced again. Then again, there are many people with huge war chests full of frags, like myself. 

 

Again, this will be VERY UNPOPULAR with the player base as a whole but it is the RIGHT DECISION in terms of balancing the game ... especially when you consider what most players can get with casting buffs / donation pots.

 

And it is very easy to level off a large amount of common / rares and never spend any higher level frags at all. Which is the method i'm pursuing right now. Using cheapest 20 XP pots and using 50 XP pots when I leave for the day.

Edited by Windbattle, 11 March 2015 - 00:03.

[BadPenny]

Windy, sugar, I make a lot of personal pots..... I have about 5K commons, about 3K rares.  I just go harvest them, pretty easy, and I have those that I pay as well..... I have less than 300 rares.  These only come from 3 sources.  Quest rewards, and champs and elites.....   Those guys are as stingy as steep nojor.  And I use the uniques.  A lot.  For simple pots.  Nothing game shattering at all.  So, what about me, the common person, that just makes the run of the mill pots?  What about us?

[Windbattle]

it is extremely easy to farm a lot of common, rare, and uniques as they are available all the time and instantly re-spawn.

 

My greater point is that the buffs at the cap are too strong and access via GE's is somewhat ridiculous. considering the vast sums of potions you an make from breaking down 1 GE reward pot. I personally love that I have more frags than I know what to do with ... but is that best for the game? that is the question i'm posing, which should be given much thought.

Edited by Windbattle, 11 March 2015 - 00:13.