54 replies to this topic

[TRBLmaker]

We seriously have 2 problems in FS 1st is the gold sink and the 2nd new Contents
so here's an idea : a 3rd cave with creatures that give XP according to player level , dunno whats the formula is but that will keep the levelers happy and stop their whining about contents...
you want more level spend some gold and instead of gaining gold from hunting they'll spend it to gain XP..
For Example 1 creature :2500 Gold, the gold raise according to the doubler's lvl x4 = 10,000 gold and so on..

[ladyjudith]

I think that this is a very good idea and will help more players go into the caves, I personally think that as it stands now is just a gold sink and have never gotten anything in there no matter how much I have spent, hope that you will seriouly consider this idea

[Maehdros]

We just got new cave stuff , Players can already sell gold for fsp, to buy % xp, and lastly EOC is capped. ie: anyone who is now 1490 can't buy levels above that. I don't see HCS ever changing that.

[TRBLmaker]

We just got new cave stuff , Players can already sell gold for fsp, to buy % xp, and lastly EOC is capped. ie: anyone who is now 1490 can't buy levels above that. I don't see HCS ever changing that.

why you have to be so negative about any idea or suggestion related to leveling ?
you already ruined the PvP with ur ideas .

[Filletminion]

lets look at this logically
Why would levelers pay to kill critters that have no storyline behind them at all ?

Secondly HCS would have nightmares coding this given xp per critter changes at 501 and 1221 both reducing the amount of kills required to gain a level after them....But then you knew that didn't you ?
Also the caves were made a long time ago to not use stamina when scavenging so this 3rd cave of yours would also require coding to make it different from the other caves.

[zeder]

lets look at this logically
Why would levelers pay to kill critters that have no storyline behind them at all ?

Secondly HCS would have nightmares coding this given xp per critter changes at 501 and 1221 both reducing the amount of kills required to gain a level after them....But then you knew that didn't you ?
Also the caves were made a long time ago to not use stamina when scavenging so this 3rd cave of yours would also require coding to make it different from the other caves.

+1

[BigGrim]

We just got new cave stuff , Players can already sell gold for fsp, to buy % xp, and lastly EOC is capped. ie: anyone who is now 1490 can't buy levels above that. I don't see HCS ever changing that.

why you have to be so negative about any idea or suggestion related to leveling ?
you already ruined the PvP with ur ideas .

He provided feedback with reasoning as to why these requests may be unlikely to be considered, as has zizzwyly. That does not mean they are being terribly negative, nor are they trying to ruin anything. Play nice please.

[Yuuzhan]

lets look at this logically
Why would levelers pay to kill critters that have no storyline behind them at all ?

Secondly HCS would have nightmares coding this given xp per critter changes at 501 and 1221 both reducing the amount of kills required to gain a level after them....But then you knew that didn't you ?
Also the caves were made a long time ago to not use stamina when scavenging so this 3rd cave of yours would also require coding to make it different from the other caves.

It would be pretty easy to code - just have the actual creature equal to the characters level appear in the cave. Personally I dont think players should be allowed to use stamina based buffs (counter attack, doubler, death dealer(unless the caves reset KS), etc) in these caves. I also think it would be a great idea for them to not use stamina. I would however make the cost increase more. It takes what, 60 kills with full potions up to beat a level at eoc (with x32 doubler) so that is just shy of 2000 kills per level, probably closer to 1600 if you spend more then I do on potions

So given Trblmakers orignal cost of 2,500 per critter that would be 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 gold per level, which is 20-25 fsp per level (at 200k per fsp). The cost of +1% is 200 fsp = one level. Obviously the cost will have to be increased to at least equal or exceed 200fsp for one level, as you are getting the chance of drops. Personally I think it should be around 400 fsp (or 60$ ) per level.

The next hurdle would be for EoC people, would this work for past EoC. Perhaps the same creatures at EoC would be available past EoC with a 1% boost to stats every level past EoC. this will limit how far people can get on the current equipment but allow people to spend a ridiculous amount of FSP to level past EoC if they want. this only benifits HCS and the game. Who cares if there is one person 100 levels past EoC. they get no extra equipment, no extra buffs (yet), and probably spent a few thousand dollars getting there.

I think that this is a great idea. It will suck so much gold out of the game as people are desperate for the "e-member enlargement" of getting so far past EoC, and at the same time generate revenue for HCS.

The only "downside" is of course storyless leveling as a potential, as well as skipping levels / areas (xind / karthak) that are called nightmares. but then again, who cares... let people spend 60$ per level they want to skip, there loss.

Just my 2 gold coins.

[Maehdros]

We just got new cave stuff , Players can already sell gold for fsp, to buy % xp, and lastly EOC is capped. ie: anyone who is now 1490 can't buy levels above that. I don't see HCS ever changing that.

why you have to be so negative about any idea or suggestion related to leveling ?
you already ruined the PvP with ur ideas .

As someone who levels and Is also sitting waiting for content, just because I disagree with your idea, doesn't mean you need to flame, or that I am out to ruin anything I simply stated facts that we just had the caves tweaked for new potions ( which are awesome btw) and the fact that previously many many years ago EOC was prevented from being passed by purchasing the +% upgrade.

[BigGrim]

As someone who levels and Is also sitting waiting for content, just because I disagree with your idea, doesn't mean you need to flame, or that I am out to ruin anything I simply stated facts that we just had the caves tweaked for new potions ( which are awesome btw) and the fact that previously many many years ago EOC was prevented from being passed by purchasing the +% upgrade.

I'm pretty sure I posted something similar to this earlier, so let's just draw a line under it and be done, cool?

[BigGrim]

Anyway, back on topic :

So given Trblmakers original cost of 2,500 per critter that would be 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 gold per level, which is 20-25 fsp per level (at 200k per fsp). The cost of +1% is 200 fsp = one level. Obviously the cost will have to be increased to at least equal or exceed 200fsp for one level, as you are getting the chance of drops. Personally I think it should be around 400 fsp (or 60$ ) per level.

If the gold cost is high enough would people use it? If it does function as a possible gold sink, then it could pull a lot of gold out of the game and help balance out the economy a bit.

How do the numbers Trblmaker & yuuzhan are throwing around sound to others?

The next hurdle would be for EoC people, would this work for past EoC. Perhaps the same creatures at EoC would be available past EoC with a 1% boost to stats every level past EoC. this will limit how far people can get on the current equipment but allow people to spend a ridiculous amount of FSP to level past EoC if they want. this only benifits HCS and the game. Who cares if there is one person 100 levels past EoC. they get no extra equipment, no extra buffs (yet), and probably spent a few thousand dollars getting there.

If it takes off and does actually pull tremendous amounts of gold out of the game, why not? If I recall correctly, the FSP block was placed there to prevent a certain amount of buying your way onto the top rated lists. Is this still any kind of concern, especially since they are using gold?

The only "downside" is of course storyless leveling as a potential, as well as skipping levels / areas (xind / karthak) that are called nightmares. but then again, who cares... let people spend 60$ per level they want to skip, there loss.

Again, this comes down to player choice. I gather a fair number of players have leveled past both before and returned to it at a later date. This is not really any different and if sinking the gold helps the Community then again, why not?

I'd be curious as to other opinions here.

[TRBLmaker]

make each level cost 200 FSP but the difference would be players can pass EOC , that means less pressure on devz to release more contents , they can contribute more XP to the guild instead of losing levels on BB and giving easy smasher medals .

[Yuuzhan]

make each level cost 200 FSP but the difference would be players can pass EOC , that means less pressure on devz to release more contents , they can contribute more XP to the guild instead of losing levels on BB and giving easy smasher medals .

I would say 200 fsp at 250k per fsp. We want gold gone, right

You do have to actually build a setup to kill creatures, so harder then just "+1% xp". Espically without Death Dealer. Then again, since this is the caves so one hitting is not important anymore making it easier to kill these critters with a 10+ hit setup.

Perhaps a modifier of gold (not double if you two hit, but perhaps 10% more) to encourage people to spend the money on buffs to 1 hit. you could put in something like "kill 1000 creatures" then the response would be "you have killed 800 creatures, gained 20 levels, spent X gold, died 50 times before running out of resources for your expidition" but that is probably making it too easy

[smileynirv]

im not sure if im reading this correctly so excuse me if im out of it.
so if this is implemented i could do a normal hunt and gain 10mil gold doing so then turn around and give it all to the caves for even more xp? or will the xp cave require stamina also?

[TRBLmaker]

im not sure if im reading this correctly so excuse me if im out of it.
so if this is implemented i could do a normal hunt and gain 10mil gold doing so then turn around and give it all to the caves for even more xp? or will the xp cave require stamina also?

Only for gold and instead of flooding the MP with 10 mill gold u can spend it in cave and gain extra XP..

[smileynirv]

Only for gold and instead of flooding the MP with 10 mill gold u can spend it in cave and gain extra XP..

will this lower the value of the sacrifice skill? that is my only concern with this

[Savanc]

So given Trblmakers original cost of 2,500 per critter that would be 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 gold per level, which is 20-25 fsp per level (at 200k per fsp). The cost of +1% is 200 fsp = one level. Obviously the cost will have to be increased to at least equal or exceed 200fsp for one level, as you are getting the chance of drops. Personally I think it should be around 400 fsp (or 60$ ) per level.

If the gold cost is high enough would people use it? If it does function as a possible gold sink, then it could pull a lot of gold out of the game and help balance out the economy a bit.

How do the numbers Trblmaker & yuuzhan are throwing around sound to others?

In my opinion:
[*:2cbhzmou]400 FSP would be way too high. At that price everyone who would otherwise be interested in attacking these creatures will now just buy the levels with the 200 FSP per level (the +1% for 2 FSP upgrade). The drops for nearly all common creatures are close to worthless, so getting such a drop shouldn't affect the price of this in my opinion. Also the possibility of getting drops from other creatures (like EW1500, FI800, EA200, etc.) shouldn't be a reason to make this more expensive; instead it should be a reason to make it less expensive. After all a person is trying to get XP from the XP creatures and when he also gets other creatures then the amount of XP per gold drops a lot. If you get the XP creature half the time and other creatures the other half of the time, it will make the XP twice as expensive and you can only hope that the sporadic drops from the other creatures cover part of this increase cost.
[*:2cbhzmou]At a price of 200 FSP people can still just buy the levels instead of attacking the cave creatures (which would mean getting buffs, having the risk of losing against a creature).
[*:2cbhzmou]I would say a price somewhere just under 200 FSP per level would be better.

It takes what, 60 kills with full potions up to beat a level at eoc (with x32 doubler) so that is just shy of 2000 kills per level, probably closer to 1600 if you spend more then I do on potions

It highly depends on your AL and Lib how many kills it takes to get a level.

Since stamina has been plenty at EoC compared to content lately I have been hunting with Lib 237 and AL 189. I usually get around 1 level per ~3300 stamina. When taking the effects of Conserve into account then it takes around 3650 stamina for 1 level.
If 1 creature in the caves would take 2,500 gold per stamina then it would cost around 9.1 million gold (around 44 FSP) per level.

If using AL 863 and Lib 863 then it would take 2.979 times less stamina for 1 level (so 1220 instead of 3650). That would make it cost 'only' 3.05 million gold (or 14.5 FSP) per level.

Given the huge difference in costs between what level of AL and Lib one will use, it might be a good idea to make AL and Lib not work in the caves.
In that case it will take 1.705 times more stamina than the 3650 I had, which is around 6200 stamina per level.
Suppose the price we'd want to pay per level is 37.2 million (186 FSP @ 200k gold per FSP), then the price per creature per stamina could be 6000 gold per creature.

The next hurdle would be for EoC people, would this work for past EoC. Perhaps the same creatures at EoC would be available past EoC with a 1% boost to stats every level past EoC. this will limit how far people can get on the current equipment but allow people to spend a ridiculous amount of FSP to level past EoC if they want. this only benifits HCS and the game. Who cares if there is one person 100 levels past EoC. they get no extra equipment, no extra buffs (yet), and probably spent a few thousand dollars getting there.

If it takes off and does actually pull tremendous amounts of gold out of the game, why not? If I recall correctly, the FSP block was placed there to prevent a certain amount of buying your way onto the top rated lists. Is this still any kind of concern, especially since they are using gold?

[*:2cbhzmou]Now people can't pay their way to the top directly with FSPs (the 1% upgrade).
[*:2cbhzmou]They can buy their way to the top indirectly with FSP using the 1 FSP to 25 stamina upgrade and then subleveling.
[*:2cbhzmou]With this they'd be able to buy their way to the top directly using gold.I would change it so that people would still be subleveling in the caves some way or the other.

This can be done by giving less XP if you are above EoC (the same way it is on the maps). Giving the same XP, but having the gold per creature increase each level when over EoC would have the same effect.

Or, like yuuzhan mentioned, the stats of creatures can increase. 1% per level isn't all that much to be honest. It depends a little bit whether the 1% is a compound rate or not. If not after 20 levels it would only be +20%. If it is compound then it will have increased by 22% (1.01^20).
To compare it with subleveling: if you are subleveling with creatures that are 20 levels below you then you are hunting at a very severe XP penalty. I haven't done a lot of subleveling, but when I did my experience was roughly like this: subleveling makes you earn 20% less XP per level (0.8^"level difference" (so 80% of normal XP at 1 level difference; 64% of normal XP at 2 levels difference; 51.2% of normal XP at 3 levels difference, etc.). At 20 levels only 1.15% of the normal XP remains.

I think we could make the creatures stronger if you are above their level, but it would have to be more than 1% per level. It can also be combined with a reduced XP. Something around 5% per level (not compounded) or 4% per level (compounded) stat increases and a reduction of 15% XP per level would seem fair to me.

Just a little table to show what effect these things have:

XP		Stats

			Normal		100% 	100%

Subleveling map
			1 level  	80%  	100%
			5 levels 	32.8%	100%
			10 levels	10.7%	100%
			20 levels	1.15%	100%

Subleveling cave
not compound +1% stats
			1 level  	100% 	101%
			5 levels 	100% 	105%
			10 levels	100% 	110%
			20 levels	100% 	120%

Subleveling cave
compound +1% stats
			1 level  	100% 	101%
			5 levels 	100% 	105.1%
			10 levels	100% 	110.5%
			20 levels	100% 	122.0%

Subleveling cave
not compound +5% stats, -15% XP
			1 level  	85%  	105%
			5 levels 	44.4%	125%
			10 levels	19.7%	150%
			20 levels	3.88%	200%

Subleveling cave
compound +4% stats, -15% XP
			1 level  	85%  	104%
			5 levels 	44.4%	121.7%
			10 levels	19.7%	148.0%
			20 levels	3.88%	219.1%

make each level cost 200 FSP but the difference would be players can pass EOC, that means less pressure on devz to release more contents, they can contribute more XP to the guild instead of losing levels on BB and giving easy smasher medals.

I would say 200 fsp at 250k per fsp. We want gold gone, right

You do have to actually build a setup to kill creatures, so harder then just "+1% xp". Espically without Death Dealer. Then again, since this is the caves so one hitting is not important anymore making it easier to kill these critters with a 10+ hit setup.

Perhaps a modifier of gold (not double if you two hit, but perhaps 10% more) to encourage people to spend the money on buffs to 1 hit. you could put in something like "kill 1000 creatures" then the response would be "you have killed 800 creatures, gained 20 levels, spent X gold, died 50 times before running out of resources for your expidition" but that is probably making it too easy

1-hitting or multi-hitting makes little difference in the caves. This makes it easier to defeat the creatures in the caves compared to on the map. In the caves people can more easily get enough attack and defense/armor while getting enough damage to kill it in a few turns.
It might be an idea to make creatures give less XP if you multi-hit. Something like a base of 50% XP you always get if you win and the other 50% XP is divided by the number of rounds it takes to kill the creature. Then people will still be interested to try to 1-hit the creatures, but it also gives a reasonable amount of XP if you multi-hit.

Only for gold and instead of flooding the MP with 10 mill gold u can spend it in cave and gain extra XP..

will this lower the value of the sacrifice skill? that is my only concern with this

Sacrifice gives more XP per gold than the caves will. So it probably won't affect the use of Sacrifice in any way.

[smileynirv]

then id have to assume sacrifice would not work on these creatures? LOLOL

[Maehdros]

I'll play along... Would a players gold on hand to be used for this upgrade/ cave , be able to be protected?


If stats are increased severely the only issue would be global potions ( I know Lib , AL levels have been suggested not working) I'd suggest buffs such as Holy flame / necrosis not work as well? The smashing hammer 500 pot( i think thats the level) would prolly be sunk by a few people to gain extra levels I would bet.

[lordthade]

Pretty much since Karthak and the never-ending-always-inventing quest chains I've stopped bothering with doing quests while hunting.

I've gone back a few times... and regretted it.

The quests are almost always the same: receive recipe, collect pieces, buy/sink gold from store, invent item, kill elite. The whole time my potions (many of which purchased at my monetary expense) tick away and my guild receives less gold/xp from me because I'll stop hunting if/when my potions run out no matter what.

Hunting in the caves would be even LESS lively, but I could see players using it.

A. Keep it mathematical. No "boosts" from prestige or potions or anything else.

B. Would stat boosts to gears still need to be applicable (like EW1500)?

C. No drops. ZERO. No other benefits. JUST levels and sinking gold.

D. JUST CONSIDER: no guild xp. Why? Because this style is so passive that the top guilds will totally abuse this to manipulate their slot on the guild level list. I don't begrudge them their success, but I want players ACTIVE and hunting/walking around. They can still level up their characters (which has its own benefits) but the xp earned is only for themselves and not for their guild.