481 replies to this topic

[yodamus]

wow..the hardcore pvers just dont get it...this is a global for all to try and participate...this is not to replace regular pvp.. you are not going to get any kind of mass participation if xp loss is included..plain and simple....how did i know the hardcore pvpers would disagree with this idea...there is no compromise at all with them on xp loss...sigh..round and round we go again..this is why so many good ideas fall apart..somehow the few get their way..and hoof and bg stick with the few....again sigh..at least you tried leo..i for one, really appreciate the effort..

[Bluetail]

Sorry Leo, Im no further convinced than I was before. I fully understand what you mentioned in your first post and your response backs me up on that since youve confirmed some of the things I thought you wanted for this event.

 

Ill make this a little simpler for you in small pros because you didnt address any of the the flaws I mentioned or are avoiding them: 

 

-This is in response to your 3rd + 4th points because you didnt defend yourself from what I mentioned. You said this was a global (stating that it was meant to run exactly like a global), which is exactly what I said in my post, why would we need another form of the exact same thing? This is exactly like a global except the difference in a global and what youve mentioned is that we dont get much more compared to our fellow peer for what we put in. Globals are cooperative events and work well in a cooperative environment. When you put in the element of competing the whole system falls apart because in PvP, not everyone is under the same set of conditions to make it fair. In a global we all smash the same creatures, the highest stam banks do the best, but the global is not a competition (and even then, there is a top 100 list but its a community effort). In PvP we all have different targets, different players willing to participate, different gear, different buffs, the list goes on. If you want to compete you must establish a balanced playing field which you failed to do.

 

-This addresses your first point you made. Your ranking system and matchmaking is absolutely ridiculous. I initially gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you meant levels and not rank but now I need to mention how this is even more absurd. Lets say the system starts, who do I hit since we havent established ranks yet? Do I have free reign to hit anybody? Just because there are the same amount of people above and below me as any other player does not make it fair. Obviously if I come across an EoC I cant kill I need to pay to skip, where as someone above me in level has the gear and stats to plow right through me. So now I have to either force over extra gold in addition to the already heavy stamina costs just to keep up with players who have more levels and gear than me in hopes of placing anywhere near the top. Youve stacked this far in your favour. I dont see how you can parade it as "fair". You want this to be a free for all like seasons was, where EoC is pitted against any other helpless soul who who wishes to participate. I know exactly what you have in mind for this now and its falling apart at the seams. You want a system that gives out rewards (which the community will complain are not good enough and will have to be buffed up yet again), that gives a huge edge to higher levelled players and especially those with the largest stam banks to burn at the end (you cant say its like a global again because its not, this is a competition- thats why stamina cost and time frame matter).

 

- Second point. Youve implied that because a bunch of guildmates are opted in together they can "abuse" you or have some sort of advantage. I can tell you 100% that there is no advantage and in fact there is a disadvantage, if they can only hit you but you can hit all of them you have much more sources of points and you can hit either one of them that becomes the leader. The same case is not true for the group of guildmates you cant hit a mate if hes in the lead. You may get hit 3 times more but you only need to hit the leader once or twice to get on top.

 

- Second point again. Nobody wanted to pay the 50k gold tag on the skip last time. Thats in noway even feasible on a large scale when som players will be forced to skip more than others.

 

- You want to remove Xp loss to get people into the ladder? Wrong, thats not the issue. The problem is that only 2-5 people get rewards in the ladder thats why nobody plays. When they expanded the ranges they lowered the number of bands and made this even worse. How many people are going to put their Xp on the line when they have a chance to get nothing, espicially now that we may have to go up against someone 500 levels above us. If you want more people to join the ladder you have to ensure that more people are rewarded, its that simple. Shrink the bands back so people arent overwhelmed and allow more ranks to get prizes. Very simple.

 

-Yes I know you cant get bountied on the ladder. I was just explaining that to Pythia. The fact youve pointed it out changes nothing.

 

-4th point in particular. Stamina costs in this are not like in globals. To take part in a global I just need to spend stamina to qualify, not place in the top 100. In your event the whole system is based on rank so I do need to spend the stamina to place with the best if I want the same rewards.

 

-Overall youre combining a cooperative aspect with a competitive aspect which makes no sense at all. You want people to work together in a common goal by beating eachother and taking eachothers gold. Do you not see how out of order this whole thing is now?

Edited by Achub, 10 September 2016 - 19:43.

[wil72]

It's the "precedence" that it would set that is concerning. PvP without ANY consequence. It would only be a matter of time or near immediate before there was an outcry for any form of PvP to be this way. GvG has been watered down to nothing and I believe such a PvP Global event would be the final nail in the coffin to actual Fallen Sword PVP.

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

 

(a pvp wannabe but far from hardcore)

[Bluetail]

There is no round and round Yoda. Its simple, people dont play because the Xp loss is not worth it. You dont even give a reward in general, how do you expect anyone beyond the first 3-5 to opt in! Give more ranks some type of reward worth the Xp loss and people will play, its such a simple solution to a simple problem but people act like its unpatchable. There are lots of people who may want to play regardless of the Xp loss but they wont opt because the first 3-5 ranks are already populated.

 

Do you not see how competition an cooperation dont mix Yoda?

 

Also Pythia, do you still not see how this system prevents you from doing what you love (hunting, levelling)? If you can be hit by anyone regardless of level at anytime how do you secure your gold while hunting? You dont even know who will be able to hit you next since rankings will be quite dynamic and update at a moments notice. If you chose to take part you wouldnt be able to hunt freely for the whole week.

Edited by Achub, 10 September 2016 - 19:46.

[Pythia]

During the time of the event, I would not hunt.

 

I do not hunt during any event, never have.

 

All my stam goes into my qualification for the event and helping the community to the extent I can.

 

Hunting is when hunting happens. *shrugs.*

[rowbeth]

GvG has been watered down to nothing

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

 

Is my memory failing me, wil?. As far as I can recall GVG has never involved experience or gold loss. The only changes I can remember having been made to GVG were the requirement for more than person to participate in the attacking team and introducing a reward for successful defenses. I don't see either of those as watering it down.

 

What have I forgotten?

[Pythia]

*scrolls up and looks at the header*

 

Nope it does not say GVG, it really does say PvP.

 

I would think about this as an event but not otherwise.

 

 

Cheers.

[wil72]

Is my memory failing me, wil?. As far as I can recall GVG has never involved experience or gold loss. The only changes I can remember having been made to GVG were the requirement for more than person to participate in the attacking team and introducing a reward for successful defenses. I don't see either of those as watering it down.

 

What have I forgotten.

 

GvG has also been capped at lvl 50 and above.

 

And more than one person required to initiate a GvG was a dilution in the extreme mate.

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

 

*scrolls up and looks at the header*

 

Nope it does not say GVG, it really does say PvP.

 

I would think about this as an event but not otherwise.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Might as well say GvG. That's why you would consider participating in such an event......not otherwise.

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

[Pythia]

*sighs*  That went out the window.  I'll opt out of everything of this nature.

 

This idea is nothing at all like ladder, arena or GvG nor is it anything like hitting for stealing gold.

 

But all that aside, I'm out of it.

 

You win.

[Morgwyn]

Just a few questions before I spent more thought on it. Why should there an option to skip? Why pvp if you are not prepared to loose? What skill is involved then if you can skip the hard ones?

Just pay 50K until a Win Button presents itself by the system?

Wouldn't this whole proposed event then just not depend on who can spent most time behind their computer to get the most points?

[Leos3000]

Just a few questions before I spent more thought on it. Why should there an option to skip? Why pvp if you are not prepared to loose? What skill is involved then if you can skip the hard ones?

Just pay 50K until a Win Button presents itself by the system?

Wouldn't this whole proposed event then just not depend on who can spent most time behind their computer to get the most points?

 

Skip was in the 1st version, and it 1 would allow you to skip guildmates or friends if you did not wish to knock them down in the rankings. It also allows more levels to be competitive as you lose a point when you lose and people get frustrated if they have to enter an impossible battle. Atleast you have hopes of getting a better target to move your rank higher it just comes at a time penalty.

 

If you did not lose points for losses this system may be who spent the most time hitting people, but with the ability to go backwards it would also require skill to stay ahead and defend against incoming attacks.

[Bluetail]

Just a few questions before I spent more thought on it. Why should there an option to skip? Why pvp if you are not prepared to loose? What skill is involved then if you can skip the hard ones?

Just pay 50K until a Win Button presents itself by the system?

Wouldn't this whole proposed event then just not depend on who can spent most time behind their computer to get the most points?

 

Right now as it sits Leo wants all players to be able to fight eachother in this event, which obviously would not work out both ways. If a Level 200 player was to come up against me he would be forced to pay an extra 50k gold to keep up with me or lose score and lower his rank; while I can easily beat him, even unbuffed, for free. The same can be said for me if I went against an EoC player, Id have to pay to skip, adding an extra cost for me to stay competitive. I dont know how Leo can list that as a pro and not a con, or even state that its any bit fair.

 

You say that you atleast have a chance to skip a battle you cant win, but since its rank based youd only be paying to delay yourself since the same type of players you skipped will be having you appear in their hitbox next as you climb the ranks. So really even if the gold wasnt an issue or skips were free its far from a win button.

 

If you want a game where higher level players can attack lower level players freely go play HCSs other game Legacy, I cant say Id recommend it but if this is what you wanna do, thats the game for you. Id really like to hear Leos response to what Ive already said before though. Ive stated a lot of big holes in this idea and he should be willing to tweak his idea or show us how it avoids those problems. If hes not able to do that or even address the exact same issues seasons had than he should let this die down. Its great that people want to add something but unless you make it something balanced for everyone, or novel then theres no need for the community to provide feedback and definitely not enough time for HCS developers to spend implementing them into the game. Its only going to take a few more failures, like PvP Seasons or Daily Quests, before enough of the community cuts support and loses interest, and HCS decides to shutdown the game. Thats the only reason Im being hard on this idea, I have nothing against Leo or any particular play style in this game, nor am I being biased. But until a well crafted idea comes forward I have to bash it.

Edited by Achub, 10 September 2016 - 23:08.

[Leos3000]

Right now as it sits Leo wants all players to be able to fight eachother in this event, which obviously would not work out both ways. If a Level 200 player was to come up against me he would be forced to pay an extra 50k gold to keep up with me or lose score and lower his rank; while I can easily beat him, even unbuffed, for free. The same can be said for me if I went against an EoC player, Id have to pay to skip, adding an extra cost for me to stay competitive. I dont know how Leo can list that as a pro and not a con, or even state that its any bit fair.

 

You say that you atleast have a chance to skip a battle you cant win, but since its rank based youd only be paying to delay yourself since the same type of players you skipped will be having you appear in their hitbox next as you climb the ranks. So really even if the gold wasnt an issue or skips were free its far from a win button.

 

If you want a game where higher level players can attack lower level players freely go play HCSs other game Legacy, I cant say Id recommend it but if this is what you wanna do, thats the game for you. Id really like to hear Leos response to what Ive already said before though. Ive stated a lot of big holes in this idea and he should be willing to tweak his idea or show us how it avoids those problems. If hes not able to do that or even address the exact same issues seasons had than he should let this die down. Its great that people want to add something but unless you make it something balanced for everyone, or novel then theres no need for the community to provide feedback and definitely not enough time for HCS developers to spend implementing them into the game. Its only going to take a few more failures, like PvP Seasons or Daily Quests, before enough of the community cuts support and loses interest, and HCS decides to shutdown the game. Thats the only reason Im being hard on this idea, I have nothing against Leo or any particular play style in this game, nor am I being biased. But until a well crafted idea comes forward I have to bash it.

 

I want a system that was simple for the cows to develop/deploy as almost all of the parameters are things they have done in the past or could easily implement. I have come up with complex ideas or equations in the past for different aspects of the game, but most dont fully understand or just ignore.

 

The reality is nothing is ever going to be completely fair to everyone the way this game is designed... If you can pay to upgrade your character and stamina is not unlimited there will always be some form of competitive advantage. The reason so many things fail is people fail to see this crucial aspect and want everything to be "fair" 

 

I on the other hand enjoy competition, which this game used to have and garnered more of my time. I play because I want to compete and hopefully win and in a competitive environment I have fun. I am hardly a large donater, but find ways to stay competitive with those who are. Everyone is new to this game at some point, and you can not expect to be competitive in all aspects of the game right away...

 

You have to work and plan to be competitive in the future, too many people just want things handed to them... This game is skewed towards higher levels its been like this since I started playing, it is just how the game is, so making new aspects of the game to work with the design of it just makes sense. 

[Bluetail]

When I say fair, I dont mean Socialist Fair, I mean Competitively Fair. There is a big difference. Theres a reason we have mens and womens sports because you cant expect women to compete and win against men in physical sports. The same would go for levels, we dont expect a lower VL to win against a higher VL in PvP. If youre thinking Im coming with a socialist point of view then youre wrong. I dont expect anything for free nor do I want anyone to receive something they didnt work for. In fact Seasons gives everyone who opts in something in return regardless of whether they actually further took part or not. And the way I see it the ones who are getting an easy ride would be the EoC. No other aspect requires you to reach EoC. Youre not talking about a slight advantage levelling might give you, this is a clear difference that cant be surpassed with any method (not stamina, FSP, ability to learn, or time and effort). A competitive event means to separate by skill, so how exactly does this separate us based on our skills in PvP? Answer that key question.

 

In terms of stamina banks, having a larger one only gives you the ability to let more time pass before you do anything. So really, it only makes levelling (only thing you get here is the top player medal) or reaching the top list in globals easier (which is still a cooperative effort and not a competition). It does nothing for titan hunting, pvp, gvg, arena, ect since most things in game barely require much stamina to finish effectively. This is due to the cap on stamina gain which is limited and always will be. Even the difference there is now with epics, it makes little difference because once you have the stamina to play what you want, it doesnt matter how long it takes to come in. This system is a very costly system to compete and allows players to spend tons of stamina. You can easily spend 6k stamina a day if you want to hit every five minutes and for a week it about 42k stamina + buffs. Can you imagine whats gonna happen when its over? "Are you serious? I spent over 50k stamina and 200 FSP and this is all I get?" and HCS will have to shuffle to award players that didnt have to spend as much as they did but chose to to keep people happy. This exact thing happened in seasons.

 

You think players with a higher level have any advantages in this game? Thats not true, there is nothing in this entire game that allows two players to compete where one has more of an advantage than another based on their level. Levelling will just give you more options but it doesnt give you more of an advantage.

 

Buffs: The buff market makes it so that players of any level can easily acquire any buff they want regardless of level or connections.

 

Titan Hunting: There are Titans available at every level range in this game. If two players on opposite ends of the level spectrum try to hunt the same titan they will both have equal opportunity to secure it.

 

Arena: Regardless of level, everyone joining is limited to the same constraints and the same gear choices at the arenas level. There are plenty of arenas for all level ranges for any one to play.

 

Bounty Hunting: Even if you can more easily defeat a player in PvP at a higher level, your cost goes up if you try to target players further away from your level. This limits higher level players from getting the same payout as a person closer to the target level, which encourages equalled level players fighting.

 

Ladder: The bands are meant to separate us into fair groups.

 

GvG: About the same as the Ladder, you still have to find players in your range to hit.

 

Composing: Anyone after a day of levelling can start composing. We all have the ability to get frag stashes from Globals or have the option to buy from frag farmers.

 

Globals: Almost everyone can hit the global creatures, and as long as you qualify for the community tier you get the same as any other player.

 

There might be more but the case stands, anything a level 200 player wants to try, will not offer you an advantage. HCS has done a very good job equalising the level gap in everything they do and what youre suggesting really comes at of left field.  

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 01:20.

[kitobas]

This idea is NOT PvP. Don't be fooled that it is. If this idea was ever implemented it would set a precedence. I can just see it now.

 

"I just got hit by a player in a PvP attack, they stole my gold, they took my XP and damaged my gear. This doesn't happen in the PvP Global Event so why should it happen at all?"

 

Adding an event like this would only further try to water down PvP and turn those that practice PvP away from the game in my opinion. Do you really want that with the player base sitting as it is?

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

thank you very much wil72, I liking your postings for saying truth, we always need remembering disgrace of system calling BLOOD, almost destroying pvp if not hoofmaster coming and stopping it

 

thank you very much achub for saying truth too (I not quoting your postings because too long), everyone who understanding pvp knowing what you saying truth, I saying same thing months ago too, eoc having very big advantage

 

 

my friend wanting playing season but he never doing pvp, I helping him what setup and buffs he using, I needing many times explaining to him how buffs working, some he still not understanding

my friend high level player and high composer, having no pvp medals

 

in season he getting very high ranking after finish, he using crazy high composing beating everyone very easy who only using 175 buffs, against players who using crazy high composing he asking me for seeing if he can beating them or skipping, leos3000 you was one of this players, I telling him skipping you because you was using many crazy high composing for long hours

my friend getting this pvp medals:

season medal (tryanny) 

bounty master medal (he smashing everyone he wanting with his crazy high composing when he wanting and not can getting counter bountying from BB im season, he doing many hundred smashings and not losing 1 xp, this not pvp, this disgrace

pvp smasher medal (he never hitting anyone before season, after season he having silver medal smashing more than 500 players)

 

leos3000 you giving good head for wanting making pvp more active but bro you should knowing best that this system giving eoc very big advantage and you are proof that this is truth

you was having advantage in season because you are eoc and using crazy high composing, many players seeing you using this advantages and you getting rank 1 because you can pvp too

 

if you was only using buffs 175 then you would not getting rank 1 because players who eoc with crazy high composing would have very big advantage against you and you would losing many fights

because you not stupid, you (at eoc) understanding this advantages you was having in season and you using crazy high composing to winning

 

level 3000 having very big advantage against level 100, that logic

crazy high composing having very big advantage against buffs 175, that logic

if someone saying this 2 things not logic then he not understanding fs gameplaying

Edited by kitobas, 11 September 2016 - 03:25.

[Gutie]

This idea is NOT PvP. Don't be fooled that it is. If this idea was ever implemented it would set a precedence. I can just see it now.

 

"I just got hit by a player in a PvP attack, they stole my gold, they took my XP and damaged my gear. This doesn't happen in the PvP Global Event so why should it happen at all?"

 

Adding an event like this would only further try to water down PvP and turn those that practice PvP away from the game in my opinion. Do you really want that with the player base sitting as it is?

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

LMAO according to wil PvP Arena isn't PvP either.

 

Also, he seems to never have played another MMO before, because he clearly has no clue what the term PvP actually is. 

 

Player Vs. Player. There is no requirement of terms/risks other than a player is engaging in competition with another player, almost always in some form of combat in game. 

 

Play a few MMOs a bit before you try going all "rawr I'm an expert on what pvp is" at people over pvp, lol.

[Pythia]

I have played other games that had a PvP aspect but this is the first game where the second P was served to the first P with such ease.

 

The games I've played, if you wanted to kill another player you hunted them like we hunt beasts here. 

 

There was a duel player feature in the form of a pull down menu. 

 

Fight creature/duel player, were the two options, then you walked around, IE hunted.

 

When you found someone you attacked.

 

That is PvP because that player had to be online to be hit.

 

I've read FS form of PvP called pillow fighting, I think that's apt.

 

Or maybe a canned hunt, where the target waits in a cage for easy attack.

Edited by Pythia, 11 September 2016 - 05:27.

[Gutie]

I have played other games that had a PvP aspect but this is the first game where the second P was served to the first P with such ease.

 

The games I've played, if you wanted to kill another player you hunted them like we hunt beasts here. 

 

There was a duel player feature in the form of a pull down menu. 

 

Fight creature/duel player, were the two options, then you walked around, IE hunted.

 

When you found someone you attacked.

 

That is PvP because that player had to be online to be hit.

 

I've read FS form of PvP called pillow fighting, I think that's apt.

 

Or maybe a canned hunt, where the target waits in a cage for easy attack.

 

To avoid causing a massive flamewar, I'll just say my experiences in other MMO's mirrors yours for the most part and I am able to draw a similar conclusion. Another observation is that most MMOs don't take XP for people getting their feet wet actually participating in PvP, which is interesting to say the least. Most just give a massive durability loss for losing. A handful you lose a few items.

Edited by Gutie, 11 September 2016 - 05:43.

[Mister Doom]

Thank you very much wil72, I like your posts speaking the truth. We always need to remember the disgrace of a system called BLOOD, almost destroying pvp if not for Hoofmaster coming and stopping it.

 

Kind of uncalled for to call my old concept a 'disgrace'. I put an immense amount of thought into that concept.

It was also based around the idea that xp loss was going to be scrapped. (to be clear, the idea to scrap xp loss came before the 'Blood' concept was formed)

 

 

It's ridiculous this forum, it truly is. Leos is putting forward an idea for an implementation of a pvp global, to fit in with the rotation of the other global events. Some people though...  "We must have consequences!" (would kill the event) "We must have no opt-out!" (would kill the event) "I must have your first born child and all your base are belong to us!" (lol)

 

You must realise that an idea such as this would be the only viable way to 'do' a pvp global.

The simple fact of the matter is, there is a LOT more people that do not like pvp (the current attacker=win system that FS has anyway) than there is that do.

Edited by Mister Doom, 11 September 2016 - 06:53.

[yghorbeviahn]

Ok, I don't know if I can swallow that idea yet, but still I'll put some more ideas about it, and try to point out some flaws.

1 - The "finish position", I hate that, it means that EOCs can pot up and hit only in the end of the event (higher you're, more likely to get hit, so better stay low until the end is close, saves stamina), so lets try this:
- Do it like the Virtual Level x Actual Level, doesn't matter where the player ended, lets say he achieved 500 points of Virtual Ranking (500 wins, no loss), he will have the same rank doesn't matter if he lose it later, but then he lost 50 attacks, now his Actual Rank is 450, but his Virtual Rank is 500...He will need 50 wins to reach his Virtual Rank, then he start to climb up again. I think that will be fair, so people will need to pay attetion and all 7 days of the Global will be equally fair.

2 - The supremacy of EOCers, that is a BIG problem that I have no idea how to solve, if you try to make brakets, you come back to the Ladder, if you don't make it, EOCers will easily win over everyone, basicly.
- The only way I can figure out to be 'fair' for everyone is by delivering "Global Gear" for everyone (a lot of sets, like 12, I don't know, so people can customize to their PvP style), you'll have your Global Gear on a secundary gear slot, you'll still be able to wear your Epics and do anything outside the Global just as normal...And make everyone receive, lets say, 2000 Level Up Points to customize your secondary LUP page (Global LUP Page). That way everyone will have the same gear and LUP to use, and every GE the gear would change and the 2000LUP will reset...I think that way the only thing that will make you better is dedication, knowledge, stamina and access to bigger potions. (BTW, I'll not mind if HCS decides to give a Global Buff Potion, not too long but with good PvP buffs, so people with problems to reach big Composed pots would have a change to do a PVP Attack Run contributing for the Global target)

3 - The 'Extra Prize pool' - My idea:
Top 10 - Progress over Tiranny/PvP Mastery Medal + 1 Ruby Chest.
Top 100 - Progress over PvP Mastery Medal + 1 Ruby Chest.

Qualified for Ruby - 1 Ruby Chest.
Qualified for Crystal - 1 Crystal Chest.
And so on...

Community Qualifying for Ruby - 2 Ruby Chests.
Community Qualifying for Crystal - 2 Cyrstal Chests.
And so on...

That way you can do your thing even if you see the Global target is not going to be reached, and still receive something back for your dedication, but if the community reach the target, you'll receive even more. (For me all the Globals should be that way, to be honest)

-

I know that Global Event is not real PvP, but I also have zero ideas about how to make a real PvP Event work, that event will be a chance to use our PvP skills and even make more people be willing to partake into open world PvP...And I know my ideas would not be as easy to implement as Leos', but if HCS put some time into it, that can work.