306 replies to this topic

[Bluetail]

I think the distinction needs to be made here, are we talking about (1) PvP in General or just (2) the PvP Ladder?

 

I think the latter is more of a concern here, though both can be argued on. So I'll just add my own opinions to fuel the discussion.

 

Are these "Super Potions" available to all?

The big question. In short yes, of course they are. But the real question is whether they are an available option to all. You need to acknowledge that this game fundamentally revolves around economic trade-off. Unless you truly enjoy something you wont take part in it if its just for profit when you can make much more in other ventures. I dont think anyone can deny that these potions have not actually added more to the strategic element of the Ladder, but really only serve to add an extra cost. 

 

For a moment consider all the costs to play the ladder as is:

• Stamina (For attacks and Self Buffing)
• Xp (lost from incurred defeats)
• Gold (Buying buffs, Potions, Repair Costs)
• Inability to Wear Epics/ Scrub Gear (or at least very limited to from a competitive angle- stamina loss)
• Time (You got to check in quite a bit to stay competitive- hitting, micro manage buffs, do repairs, ect)

As you can see its already quite costly to play in comparison to other game aspects which require far less dedication or time. All these costs only drive away new players from potentially trying out the ladder. Lowering the costs would definitely make the ladder more appealing again to those that want to give it a shot but are on the fence. Id say the biggest cost turning people off is the cost for composing pots.

 

Do "Super Potions" take away the "Strategic Element"?

Questionable, but I would have to argue strongly in favour of yes. These potions primarily serve to inflate players stats, as Luis mentioned. Gameplay or personal enjoyment wouldnt change if stats were halved or even doubled from what they can currently reach. Because the stats are already so far ballooned, it is effortless to hit your opponent when they are offline and unbuffed when youre buffed. This does nothing but make PvP more boring since all someone needs to do is pot up with a few min duration composing pots to smash thru effortlessly while your offline. It promotes more backdoor and sleazy approaches to Ladder gameplay where you can gaurantee a win if they are offline + unbuffed.

 

Not only does it make attacking someone offline effortless but it also make defending while buffed (online) effortless. Imagine someone running a suicide set in tandem with composing SH, CoA, Entrench, with Terrorize and Ageless + Chi Strike. This is extremely hard to crack through that massive HP/Armour wall even with Wither 500. Defending with Defense is even more effortless. Consider someone running a specialized defense set that utilizes an Antarius Egg tandem to your staple defensive myriad of composing defensive buffs. With NMV and Barricade you can definitely reach levels where a player can not accumulate enough attack to crush through your stats without DC. But when you throw in Dispel Curse you almost always guarantee a win while defending over a third of the time, coupled with Shame and this is not going to be a good time for anyone willing to gamble it. And the ladder has become just that with all these high level chance buffs, a gamble- mere luck/chance. 

 

The ladder as it is with these super buffs promotes early hitting at reset and hiding behind buffs for as long as you can, knowing your opponents will have to gamble on hitting you at some point if they want to win. Not fun if you ask me, but the leading strategy right now.

 

What are the "Suspect Buffs?"

As already mentioned, stat inflating buffs dont contribute anything but extra cost. By extension, reducing your opponents stats (Flinch/Terrorize) do the same thing. That encompasses alot of composing potions. Specifically KE, SH, CoA, Shield Wall, Entrench, Terrorize, Flinch and Dispel Curse are all suspects in my opinion.

 

If were talking about specific potions, the Antarius Egg is massively overpowered, no need to expand since Im sure everyone knows it. It just a prime example of how the envelope keeps getting pushed with buffs without considering the consequences of how it works with other buffs or for certain ranges.

 

What is the solution?

There are two main issues, they inflate the cost to play the ladder and they reduce the skill needed (the real issue).

 

To remedy the cost, simply taking strides to reduce the cost (like the cost of super potions) can solve this. Improving rewards is definitely not the answer. All the ladder chests served to do were further add more overpowered potions to repeat the cycle.

 

To be honest the real issue isnt actually the cost but the impact on gameplay theyve caused. I dont think that tweaking buff levels or descriptions would be the right action here to lower the effects of these potions on the Ladder. This would just leave too many that have already invested in composing or stocking super potions feeling slighted.

 

What I would suggest for a solution would be to put a cap on the skill levels that activate during a ladder attack. Nothing would be changed outside the ladder, you can still have these high buff levels active but when it comes to a ladder attack the game could check your buff levels and lower them just for the ladder attack to a level cap decided on by the community. This prevents ballooning and doesnt make buffs the only deciding factor in PvP. As it is, chances are who ever can sustain the highest buffs for the longest every reset will win, which makes winning the ladder more of an auction for ladder tokens. A bet to see whos willing to spend more. This hopefully remedies this.

 

TLDR- Impose a reasonable level cap when it comes to buff calculations (ladder combat only) for suspect buffs determined by the community (players who play the ladder would have a better idea than those whove never played).

Edited by Achub, 20 March 2017 - 22:38.

[Pardoux]

I'm one that advocates that the composing pots are too overpowered - and have said so for a long time now.

 

The problem now lies in there are a LOT of composers at Level 60, who've spent a LOT of time and currency and frags to actually get there. To take that away from them now would be a mistake - unless, of course, something was offered to "compensate" for that.

 

No idea "WHAT" could be a compensation, but it could be, for instance, NEW buffs (that don't pad stats) - heck, there's plenty in the SKILLS list of buffs that have never seen the light of day, despite being there for over 2 yrs if I recall correctly.

 

The major problem with the game I feel is that issues are pointed out, are "poo-poo'd" by the cows and then, as more and more people start to point them out, maybe, just MAYBE they get looked at. The game needs, I feel, far more hands-on from the big man himself ...

 

That last sentence is, I think, the root of all the "rot" in the game ATM...

[Hoofmaster]

This is disappointing. You're actually considering the complaints of a small vocal minority? Some of these guys beat me up constantly even while I use these "op" pots and they don't.

 

I don't agree nor disagree - I'm just trying to find out more information about what is the concern then I can take a look at it

[Hoofmaster]

Hoof should know which skills they are since he is the architect of the game.

 

 

Enchant Weapon, Keen Edge, Dark Curse, Coordinated Attack/Defense and Smashing Hammer are the primary offenders but the other stat modifiers suffer from the effects of the uber potions almost as bad.

 

Specific examples would be good - what specific levels do you feel the buffs are overpowered and why? Just trying to find out more info

[Leos3000]

As a counter argument to all the people complaining that composing is overpowered.

 

Pretty much any composing potion is not the max level pot you can get anymore. The ladder, Global, and Special offer chests all have higher level buffs available in them. They are just not as easy to get.

 

There are always different tiers to what potions people will use based on how badly they want to win.

 

Composing is a mid tier pot that trumps the free buffs people can cast on themselves, they sink lots of gold and fsp which is a great thing for HCS.

 

I think the fact that over 200 people are at the max level of content and nothing has been released since Christmas is a more concerning issue... 

[SirAdmiral]

Forget PvP, no skill should have gotten passed 200-250 with the exception of maybe the donation potions, which only come around every so often.

[Mister Doom]

Specific examples would be good - what specific levels do you feel the buffs are overpowered and why? Just trying to find out more info

 

EW1500 is obscenely powerful

SH and KE  are buffs that in their castable form are already overpowered, when you can get potion form versions that are 400 and even 500+ then it begins to become ridiculous. The same goes for the CoA and CoD buffs.

 

My problem with this 'uber' buffs goes beyond their use in pvp, it comes down to the fundamental watering down of the game mechanics themselves. When you can mindlessly drink a few of this grossly overpowered potions and then blindly roflstomp anything and everything that comes your way, then you have lost some of the magic that used to make the game a good game.

 

We no longer need to work things out, taking the mathematics out of a maths based game is just illogical.

 

The OP had it right though, quite a lot of us have become so hopelessly dependant on our own private win buttons (make no mistake, that is precisely what these are, unless you are completely incompetent) that they will fight tooth and nail to keep them, and have come up with all kinds of justifications as to why it is okay to water the game down.

 

When I initially saw this thread I simply smiled to myself and thought, "I agree wholeheartedly, but nothing is going to change." Then I saw that you yourself had spoken up here and I thought, "What the hell, maybe it's not pointless after all."

 

So in essence my problem with these buffs, is that they make everything too easy and take away our need to think.

[Leos3000]

 

So in essence my problem with these buffs, is that they make everything too easy and take away our need to think.

While these buffs do make leveling a much easier and almost mindless activity. IMO they do almost the opposite for PVP. It does take some actual thought to overcome someone who is using them in PVP. Which is why I think I lot complain about using them in pvp as they want an easy way to win..

[Bluetail]

Changes should have been made earlier tbh. The community has grown far too attached to having high level buffs to give them up anytime soon, just as Doom pointed out. Would make for a nice community poll though. PvE was never really that hard to begin with tbh, its not like there werent special calculators out there to do the math for you either. Plus hunting sets were common knowledge. In terms of PvE, the super buffs just let you do something that use to take 8 buffs to do, now possible with 3.

 

I like Pardoux's idea of swapping them out for new buffs, but only if these buffs add some element of strategy or fun to the game. If it doesnt change the way you play, then why have it?

 

I also feel that tampering with composing levels would bring up the need for a new frag cost formula, so bear that in mind..

[Pythia]

Nothing in this game has ever been a cake walk for me except the GEs, when I go down to ramdal and grid the zone to qualify.   I work for all that I get and do much of my own work, that's my way. 

 

This is the same topic hashed and rehashed and hashed again. 

 

I understand  the frustrations of other players but wish those that PvP could find a solution among themselves that did not include those of us that do not PvP, because whatever you do will play out across the player base.

[sweetlou]

Specific examples would be good - what specific levels do you feel the buffs are overpowered and why? Just trying to find out more info

Anything beyond level 350, or twice the standard personal skill level, makes the game a joke. I do believe the ship has sailed on fixing it however. Simply increasing stat changing skills in lieu of real game development was lazy and short sided. As the op stated now players have become addicted to the crack-like pots to the detriment of the game, no matter how many players cry that they can't live without them. I'm once again hopeful Hoof might do something but the topic has been neglected so long, like so many other aspects, I don't expect any change. It's no skin off my back like all the players who have the bp space and the access to the pots. My concern has always been for the game and the players left behind, the ones who are absolutely outclassed by skill levels 4x greater and that they will never come close to beating. The disparity between standard 175 skills and super pots is too great! It's where I believe the op and many others are posting from and I understand and wish the developers would have heeded the red flags which have been posted for a couple years now. Hoof, good luck on this one!

[Pardoux]

Nothing in this game has ever been a cake walk for me except the GEs, when I go down to ramdal and grid the zone to qualify.   I work for all that I get and do much of my own work, that's my way. 

 

This is the same topic hashed and rehashed and hashed again. 

 

I understand  the frustrations of other players but wish those that PvP could find a solution among themselves that did not include those of us that do not PvP, because whatever you do will play out across the player base.

 

Sorry, have to blunt here, but you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that ALL PvP'rs and ALL Ladder players will stop using the uber-pots in their activities just so that the rest of the game can continue to use them.

[Hoofmaster]

I'm not suggesting we do this, but one option for 'overpowered' skills would be to give them a diminishing return. This would allow the potions levels etc. to remain unchanged and ensure that the higher levels are still more powerful, but not crazily powerful if you know what I mean? It would also open up to possibility of even higher level buffs of some skills where it would have made them too powerful previously.

 

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

 

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

[dobroeutro]

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

 

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

 

No thank you...    

Edited by dobroeutro, 21 March 2017 - 11:57.

[yotwehc]

I'm not suggesting we do this, but one option for 'overpowered' skills would be to give them a diminishing return. This would allow the potions levels etc. to remain unchanged and ensure that the higher levels are still more powerful, but not crazily powerful if you know what I mean? It would also open up to possibility of even higher level buffs of some skills where it would have made them too powerful previously.

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

[Mister Doom]

I'm not suggesting we do this, but one option for 'overpowered' skills would be to give them a diminishing return. This would allow the potions levels etc. to remain unchanged and ensure that the higher levels are still more powerful, but not crazily powerful if you know what I mean? It would also open up to possibility of even higher level buffs of some skills where it would have made them too powerful previously.

 

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

 

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

 

This is good, I like it.

[Olef]

While these buffs do make leveling a much easier and almost mindless activity. IMO they do almost the opposite for PVP. It does take some actual thought to overcome someone who is using them in PVP. Which is why I think I lot complain about using them in pvp as they want an easy way to win..

in your bio you are proudly stating:

 

Titan
Titan League
Rating: 2,528
Position: 1st
Wins: 266 (all in a row defending or attacking)

 

question: did you got the number 1 position in seasons with cast able buffs because you wanted to think and not get an easy way to win or with epic skills (from chests) because you did not want to think and get an easy win?

 

if you only used cast able buffs during seasons then good job, congrats for putting actual thought to overcome players who used epic skills in pvp and following your words in your post

but if you used epic skills then your words lose all credibility because you would have done the opposite of what you posted

 

 

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

 

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

can you please further explain with this example

player A with 4 complete sets using smashing hammer 552 and keen edge 403

 

player B with 4 complete sets using smashing hammer 175 and keen edge 175

 

how much bonus stats does player A and B get?

Edited by Olef, 21 March 2017 - 16:11.

[sweetlou]

I'm not suggesting we do this, but one option for 'overpowered' skills would be to give them a diminishing return. This would allow the potions levels etc. to remain unchanged and ensure that the higher levels are still more powerful, but not crazily powerful if you know what I mean? It would also open up to possibility of even higher level buffs of some skills where it would have made them too powerful previously.

 

This is purely an example, but something along the lines of this:

 

Sample Skill: +1 per point to attack up to skill level 250. After 250, +0.1 per point to attack.

Bringing more parity between castable 175 skills and the 625 skills that can be further distilled makes a lot of sense. For example, how does Dispel Curse 500 not break the game? It stops Dark Curse from working 100% of the time! Conversely what about Terrorize 800? Really? Those Candy Apples aren't common but they completely break the game. When Super pots are standard equipped for a few but not for most it creates a huge imbalance.

 

Personally I think most players could care less how powerful skills get like AM, Sacrifice, Conserve, Doubler, Global Booster, AL, Librarian, Unbreakable, BM and any other non stat changing buffs or "luck" buffs get. That's not the issue here. But when player stats can exceed 3 or 4 times as powerful as what is commonly available then the potions go too far. Luck buffs fall into the same category as stat changing skills. Those skills that should be capped like Dispel Curse, High Guard, Golden Shield, Savagery, Invert. The stat changing skills are obviously the ones which directly increase the statistics including KE, DC, CA, CD, SH, Beserk, Fury, Rage and on.

 

Whatever your decision is to tweek the game Hoof, I am relieved to know you are willing to take the time to correct an issue with the game that has been ignored for far too long. Thank you!

[Leos3000]

in your bio you are proudly stating:
 
Titan
Titan League
Rating: 2,528
Position: 1st
Wins: 266 (all in a row defending or attacking)
 
question: did you got the number 1 position in seasons with cast able buffs because you wanted to think and not get an easy way to win or with epic skills (from chests) because you did not want to think and get an easy win?
 
if you only used cast able buffs during seasons then good job, congrats for putting actual thought to overcome players who used epic skills in pvp and following your words in your post
but if you used epic skills then your words lose all credibility because you would have done the opposite of what you posted
 
 

can you please further explain with this example
player A with 4 complete sets using smashing hammer 552 and keen edge 403
 
player B with 4 complete sets using smashing hammer 175 and keen edge 175
 
how much bonus stats does player A and B get?

I did say it takes thought to overcome someone using the pots. Meaning it's a challenge to beat someone who is using them. As far as seasons lots were using compos8ng and higher buffs, but I came up with a strategy to consistently beat their buffs

[Olef]

I did say it takes thought to overcome someone using the pots. Meaning it's a challenge to beat someone who is using them. As far as seasons lots were using compos8ng and higher buffs, but I came up with a strategy to consistently beat their buffs

with strategy you mean you did not use any epic skills to consistently beat players who were using composing and epic buffs?

Edited by Olef, 21 March 2017 - 17:27.