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Eldevin and multi-play / botting


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#21 Dave

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:29

Its a bad precedent to allow people to multilog.  One day its a guy using a healer instead of using the healing spells everyone can use, the next its gold farmers with hundreds of accounts set up to mine resources/gather 24/7 and sell gold to people who want an easy win.  Look at runescape, 70% of players online at any time are bots.

Level 30 is the max at the moment, you can't just assume everything will be easy at later levels.  This is beta, if we say its too easy it probably will get changed, maybe its easy on purpose so testers can get through as much content as possible.  You can't also assume there will be no one around to group with in the live game.

I just think its ridiculous that your trying to justify a form of cheating outlawed in 99.9% of mmos.  



#22 Stormbow

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:31



Its a bad precedent to allow people to multilog.  One day its a guy using a healer instead of using the healing spells everyone can use, the next its gold farmers with hundreds of accounts set up to mine resources/gather 24/7 and sell gold to people who want an easy win.  Look at runescape, 70% of players online at any time are bots.

Level 30 is the max at the moment, you can't just assume everything will be easy at later levels.  This is beta, if we say its too easy it probably will get changed, maybe its easy on purpose so testers can get through as much content as possible.  You can't also assume there will be no one around to group with in the live game.

I just think its ridiculous that your trying to justify a form of cheating outlawed in 99.9% of mmos.  

 

Your "99.9%" [not at all a] "statistic" statement is grossly exaggerated in more than one way.  And, of course, gross exaggerations do little to persuade in a debate on any topic.  Last act of the desperate, in many cases I believe.

 

This thread has already established there are games out there which find multi-play, healbots, and/or buffbots to be acceptable.  You can't argue that World of Warcraft doesn't allow it.  You can't argue that Dark Age of Camelot doesn't allow it.  These are two major MMOs, and there are many others out there that feel the same way in the free-to-play/pay-to-win market such as Runes of Magic.

 

To fake statistics and blame a guy that wants his own pocket healer for someone else abusing the system to farm loot, powerlevel characters, or do any number of typically less-than-ethical-to-the-majority things is reprehensible.

 

And since you've been confused by this thread, I will state it (again), this time in no unclear terms: I want players grouping with players for every turn, or at the very least-- very regularly.  I will gladly sacrifice the ability to follow other players by any non-manual means if it means "cheaters" are going to be stopped too.

 

I never assumed "everything will be easy at later levels".  I stated a nigh-on-factual opinion based on years and years of experience in countless MMOs of every make and model that virtually all online games these days do not require grouping for the majority of the game's content.  World of Warcraft-- 1 to 90 with no groups is ridiculously easy; Dark Age of Camelot-- 1 to 50 with no groups is possible, though considered boring and tedious; Aion; RIFT; Tera; Guild Wars 2; the EverQuest series; SWToR; LotRO; DDO; Warhammer Online... All of these major MMO names have that same "feature" in common-- the level cap is relatively easily achieveable with no groups being regularly "required" to get to there.  And the list goes on.  Players simply follow the major quest lines, do a few side or daily quests, and voila-- instant level-capped character.  Even pending games like Defiance and Neverwinter have shown themselves to be "no groups needed".  (I have been active in both of those beta tests as well.)  In my opinion, this "fact" makes the assumption that Eldevin, The Elder Scrolls Online, ArcheAge, and every other MMO to come will be the same way even more plausible.

 

But let's look directly at Eldevin-- how many level 30 characters (in such a very short amount of time; a scant few days passed after everyone was level 1 again and we started seeing level 30s) are there which have never had to group with another player outside of a dungeon?

 

The players are what make games too easy.  They "demand" minimaps, and quest location markers, and easier monsters to kill.  They "demand" better loot, and then don't want to share that loot with anyone else.  (Anyone with a serious amount of MMO experience can attest to that "fact" too-- how many times have experienced gamers seen an end-game raid or dungeon group is forming and the person forming the group "claims" a specific piece of loot or "a choice" of the loot that is dropped at the end of the raid or dungeon?)

 

And to get the loot held by tougher monsters, players will go to extremes (botting, multi-play) to get what they want without having to sacrifice their time, without having to face the potential of lost loot rolls in the typical "Need-vs-Greed-vs-Loot Ninja" drama that unfolds in most games.  Laziness and greed are prevailing factors in MMOs; it's undeniable.  And unfortunately, and as much as it pains me to say it, Eldevin is not likely to be any different.

 

Beta communities, of course, are generally a completely different animal.  They don't care about giving away stuff that took them hours upon hours to find.  Most beta players are not in the beta to make rich characters.  They know none of that stuff is permanent anyway.  But that giving attitude is likely to change when a game goes live; unless someone that needs something is an established friend (either from a guild formed in the beta, or just from the beta itself).

 

</ soapbox>


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#23 Stormbow

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:38

And don't get me started on "Looking for Group" tools.  These are machinations for the lazy and greedy as well.  The players in games like World of Warcraft (for example) that use them have no regard at all for other players in the groups, and will not hesitate for even a moment-- if a player is not an "uber 1337 dood pwnzorface dps machine" --to kick said player out of the group.  No grace is given for anyone to adjust to the others' play styles, and you're damned in a heartbeat if you don't already know the dungeon!  In the same breath, these types of players have no problem killing a specific boss in a dungeon, seeing the loot that drops, then either NEEDing on the loot because it's what they are after and (win or lose) then abandoning the group immediately after the loot rolls have concluded, or simply abandoning the group because the loot they wanted didn't drop.


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#24 Dave

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:54

Hilarious, you are still trying to justify what is considered "cheating" in 99% of mmos.  Just because it suits how you like to play doesn't mean its ok.

 

How many people are going to read this and think "If hes got multiple accounts at once going to run instances for better loot, i may as well bot crafting and gathering skills, fuck the community, i dont need to make friends or interact to benefit the game as a whole".

 

Interested to see what hunted cows stance is on this.  I'm sure if they wanted us to run multiple accounts there would have been some sort of support for this or even mention of it.



#25 Orlac

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:42

Wow this got out of hand pretty quick didn't it.


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#26 livingtarget

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:59

85% of all statistics are made up

 

 

"Last act of the desperate, in many cases I believe."

 

"And since you've been confused by this thread"

 

Cool the personal attacks, calling people desperate and confused is not going to fly. Dave just stated his opinion. Same goes for everyone else, if this can't stay civil I will lock the thread.



#27 Stormbow

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 14:17

85% of all statistics are made up

 

Cool the personal attacks, calling people desperate and confused is not going to fly. Dave just stated his opinion. Same goes for everyone else, if this can't stay civil I will lock the thread.

 

Exaggeration is truth that has lost its temper.
-Khalil Gibran

There are some people so addicted to exaggeration that they can't tell the truth without lying.
-Josh Billings

Exaggeration is a blood relation to falsehood and nearly as blamable.
-Hosea Ballou

'Tis a rule of manners to avoid exaggeration.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive.
-Eliza Cook

 

Lock it then.  I've already proven his statistic is made up; and if his "opinion" is acceptable, so is mine.  At least mine is based on something more than a number I pulled out of thin air.  I'm not flaming the thread.


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#28 Draco

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 14:35

The easiest way to prevent people from multi-playing in Eldevin would be to either remove the "follow" feature of the game or restrict the game to one connection per IP address (which can actually be worked around using several computers on a home network, so it's not much of a solution).

 

Games that allow "/target", "/follow", and "/assist" features (especially when allowed through slash commands or keybinds) are the easiest games to set up these multi-play bot scripts for.

That would cause me problems because i have about 4 computers at home connected to a switcher to a 1 router, sometimes i help my brother during a quest or something and other times we play together, also the follow command makes things easier for myself which i'll sit back and do nothing till i do what i need it would be annoying to follow someone manually actually i'd hate that .. :| of course there would be some other solution.

 

Maybe you the guy who is followed can cancel the follow thingy ... or following each other might be done by a confirmation .. :D if you know what i mean.

like Player A wants to follow you, Player B got the choice to Accept or Refuse. That might be a solution.



#29 Stormbow

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 16:42

That would cause me problems because i have about 4 computers at home connected to a switcher to a 1 router, sometimes i help my brother during a quest or something and other times we play together, also the follow command makes things easier for myself which i'll sit back and do nothing till i do what i need it would be annoying to follow someone manually actually i'd hate that .. :| of course there would be some other solution.

 

Maybe you the guy who is followed can cancel the follow thingy ... or following each other might be done by a confirmation .. :D if you know what i mean.

like Player A wants to follow you, Player B got the choice to Accept or Refuse. That might be a solution.

 

We're not really talking about friendly follows.  We're talking about one player controlling more than one character.  Of course they could accept the follow request sent by one of their own characters.  The request system idea wouldn't stop the "cheaters".


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#30 Jeffrey Miller

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 19:56

Just stop. This thread is in no way helpful, your opinions have gotten out of hand. That's exactly what they are: opinions. As far as the Devs are concerned they'll do whatever they deem necessary to make fair game play done. It will happen by there own way and how they see fit. You fellas arguing about your own opinions, and causing more stress and arguments then anything slightly productive. It's coming down to you all arguing about whose opinion is right. That is all it is. Sure they're valid stances, but it's not helping in any sort of way. Again it comes down to what the Devs decide. Fighting over it on a forum post is not helping anyone. I don't care why this started, and who was 'right.' It's causing headaches for everyone.

 

Just do the Devs a favor drop it, even if you're 'right.' They have better things to do then read these threads about opinions that don't matter in the end on how the "anti-cheat" system will end up, to be blunt there is NO feedback here they will use. Want to know why? You're arguing about things like little children, whose right whose wrong. Everyone needs to chill. Get off this thread before they lock it, come back and discuss it like adults. Insulting people on how the system will be over how your opinion makes you more right, is not helping in the slightest. Just do the Devs the favor of dropping it. Leave your egos in game, not on the forum.



#31 Stormbow

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 23:03

Cheating shouldn't be allowed.  End of discussion.


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#32 evilbry

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 23:31

The amount of ad hominem material in this thread is very disappointing. I really hope this is not a precedent for the eldevin community moving forwards.

 

Devs time can be much better spent improving eldevin for the community that dealing with petty squabbles.



#33 Beelsebob

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:46

This whole thread has got out of hand.  LT tried to ask you lot politely to cool it, and you only fired up the braziers more.  Locked.




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