@ Raiden
Thank you. Sincerely. You directly addressed a number of the key points.
"Even IF the player started out as rogue, had enough credits to join a gang and maintain leftover funds to do so they are STILL going to join the strongest gang."
That is assuming they all have your player-style, assuming that even is your player style. Which would prove my point. I have not checked so I don't know, but are you BoD? Is BoD the "strongest" gang? Will they forever be? No. Players make their own choices, and join or move from gangs for their own reasons. If a gang gets too top-heavy it topples. This has happened many times, and will over and over. That is how war is.
"There is no real solution to who will join what gang based on activity and community"
You are right, unless you force them into gangs. Which might piss them off. See my point? There is no "fixing" war "Imbalances". Imbalances simply is war. A balanced war is called "Peace" or it is simply "Boring". There is a different between a close call and a "balanced" game. Seeking balance is pointless. Seeking a positive player experience however, is an admirable goal. Chances are high player experience will increase if players feel they have a voice and a choice. Something currently players don't feel they have enough of. Correct me if I am wrong.
"you're going to pick the powerful gang no doubts about it"
I strongly disagree. I was forced into TC at sign-up, and I eventually thumbed around for several hours till I made my own choice. I choose DF, and far from because they were the "strongest". I can give a heck less about who is "strongest". I liked their heart and spirit and how they treated other players. And I liked the role-play aspect. I moved, and not to BoD whom is "the strongest". Not interested in the least. Wasn't then, not now. Not my player style. I am guessing not yours either, but I could be wrong. Raiden; do you gang-hop to whomever is winning gold in WL no matter what? Did you when you started? You have your own player-style, and so will new players of Legacy that we have not had the pleasure of meeting yet.
"Again with the previous answer, Imbalance has been something that was probably brought up ages ago and never touched, is being revived once again and can't be fixed. If you've noticed. NO ONE has ever brought it up again because others have just say to hell with it and moved on."
I am glad for it. I am not talking about balancing all gangs out, that would be silly. I am talking about how to keep new players. The auto-assign algorithm did exactly what it was meant to do, mess things up. Forcing us to be patriotic for whoever is silly, and little do most players know but they can choose their gang. If they know exactly which consecutive 15+ or so clicks they must make to understand what gang they are in, what that means, what their options are, and how to change to another gang. And if they do finally find the "Leave Gang" option, they end up in Roguatory. That sucks. Really bad. The Rogues feature is broken. Now they have to try and loose reputation (which I do like), but in the mean-time they can't do a majority of what they could do prior (WL, train abilities they will use while in Rogues, level their gear simply etc.). The effort it takes to move from one gang to another is a huge burden, thus contributing to stale gang politics in my opinion. In my mind the solution is simple; let them be unaffiliated to start, then choose their gang, and move to another gang without feeling penalized unnecessarily for it. Tides will shift more, game becomes more alive because of it.
Choice is a powerful thing. It is the only thing we must all do. The only thing.
"The basis of what you're trying to get across when it comes to allowing rogues into wasteland... isn't something that will be agreed upon so sudden."
You are very right about that. How long has the "Rogue being a gang" or "5th gang" items been in the DtD thread!? A little background, the only reason I have been bringing this topic up since I started playing is because I sincerely believe it was a good idea. Kudos to whomever started that idea, it certainly wasn't me. I am not alone in this, even though I am currently one of the only ones being openly vocal about it. It would seem I finally have a "second follower"/co-leader beside me right now. See a recent topic in the game's Main Forums for more on that.
"(even though I applaud your efforts thus far to broaden your points)"
I had to really think on what you were trying to say there. I could be wrong, but this sounds like an insult. Just so we are clear; I moved from TC to get to DF instead, and I am being very vocal about a very unpopular topic. Getting "points" or whatever for forum posts does absolutely nothing to my sense of self. I also publicly expressed here I am genderfluid, poly, and kinky. I have zero problem being unpopular. Your player-style is not my player-style. You missed your target on that insult if that is what it was.
"As Aaron said, the game basically states that Tyran made the rule through Seraph and to change it now would basically be saying "Oh well it just donned on me to let this change here we go."
Creative minds expand on prior ideas constantly. That's how authors write a book series. That is how game writers write games. I am sure Zorg/HCS and/or their player base can find a creative solution around that "problem". I give us far more credit then that.
"The purpose of joining a gang is to come together as a group and take out foe(s) and achieve dominace through territory control."
... And?
"You will have ties with other gangs, even ones you're AT WAR WITH, and you will probably stab them in the back because that's what you're gonna have to do to win."
Not sure your point here, but I am guessing you are saying there are already politics in the game as it is. Noted and agreed. That is why this game is so interesting to me. I will even go out on a limb and say that is the primary if not the only reasons people play this game; the player-driven politics.
With that said all I am making clear is your player-driven politics are nerfed right now, and you don't realize it because you are in the thick of it. It doesn't have to be boring and pointless to be Rogue. It could be smoother transition between gangs. New players might be able to learn the game at a more realistic pace. This could be a very simple change to solve a lot of problems within the current gangs; Stagnation (not to be confused with imbalance). Put simply, our politics could be much more realistic. Right now we have a kinda-pseudo-not-really "independent/third party" that doesn't make any logical sense. Where in the lore does it say any new being that is born on this planet is born into a gang, and if so why? I get why Rogues don't gain territory, and why they don't have leadership. That makes sense. Why they wouldn't be a functional 3rd party does not. Nor does why they are not a natural starting point for new players born into the game.
"This is completely ignorant on every standard. The fact that you're questioning the point of an Avatar, moreso someone who has been here for years is complete arrogance."
I believe there is a very large miscommunication here. First, I am sorry it sounded like I was insulting AVs. That was not my intention. I may have mis-spoken. What I was trying to say is AVs may have forgotten what it was like to try and learn gang politics as well as game mechanics at the exact same time. That is all. I do remember what it was like, and I am able to try my best to communicate what it was like. I am attempting that right now, and I am sorry for not doing so on that point very well. I can see how it would sound ignorant or arrogant. My sincere apologies.
"Everyone went through the same process of going from start to what is currently endgame as far as gear, leveling, and every game aspect goes."
Agreed. Some simply did it more recently then others. That is all. Nothing wrong with that in the least. It just lends to our differing viewpoint. Once again my view related to Rogues/5th Gang was not "mine". I claim no ownership to it nor leadership in the spreading of it. Like those that came before me and those that came after me, I am simply giving a loud-speaker to what was already said. Players want choices. The choices right now are inadequate. That is all.
"I'm just coming off being a lowbie/newbie for a little over a year now"
I am glad to hear it is still fresh on your mind. Then can you answer these questions for me?
- Have you ever been Rogue, if you have been did you have fun as Rogue?
- Are you still in the gang you started in?
- Did someone direct you to a gang library or forum thread so you might understand your gangs politics?
- Did you need to ask for help on how to switch gangs if you did?
- How many clicks does it take to find sufficient info on your gang?
- How many clicks does it take to leave one gang, and join another of a players free choosing?
- Do you feel everyone that has ever joined this gang was as capable and patient as you were?
- Is Side Chat an inviting and helpful place for all players including rogues, newbies, and lowbies?
- Might links to choices within the new player tutorial to their gang options be helpful?
- Might it be easier to use the Wasteland if you don't have to worry about gaining territory first?
"a player is put into a gang to allow them the introduction and guidance through the gang they are in"
Yes, irregardless to if they feel any kinship, alliance, or patriotism to said gang. How is that helpful or appealing to players or gangs alike? Do you mean to say there is no other way a player might learn about gang customs without being thrown directly into it at start? Like no possible way at all? Zero creative solutions?
"A player will level a bit, check wasteland for the first time, and then maybe join said game but that's again with the imbalance."
We have an imbalance right now in the WL. BoD will most certianly get Gold once again, and DF might actually get silver this time. So what? That has far more to do with Stagnation, and less to do with Imbalances. Two completely different things. They are both happen eventually, but stagnation can be changed with simple adjustments to game mechanics. Many creative solutions could exist, and one in fact does. Rogue Viability (to varying degrees, other ideas on the Zorg roadmap as well).
"Complaining about imbalaces is something that's been going on for too long."
Yes, likely due to iniquity word-choice. Imbalance is different then Stagnation. Stagnation should be avoided, Imbalance is a fact of warfare in my view.
"Having lowbies starting in rogue and joining various gangs is just the same as having them start in one gang and moving to another"
Sure, if player choice is not valued and the aim is to stifle creativity and a free-flowing player experience. Those that "go rogue" should not be unnecessarily penalized for doing so. Nor should they be a hated minority. They could be Legacy Lite instead of Legacy Incarceration. Roguatory sucks, and it is unfortunate that I felt I had to leave a gang I absolutely love to show you all how dedicated to proving this point I am. Many of you have been Rogue before, and it sucks. Being forced into a gang at start not only stifles new player choice, but it stigmatizes this transitional minority. One should not "go rogue" they should natural start as Rogue/unaffiliated/unaligned then choose which gang they resonate with. I highly doubt staff will get any complaint tickets about new players not liking the fact they get to choose their gang.
"Pointing fingers to get a point across just draws your point back even further. Stick to your point and stop lashing out."
You are right. I sincerely apologize. I will do my best to remain calm and respectful and civilly debate, so long as you do as well. You are far from the first person I have been called names for simply expressing a minority view. I may have been on edge, and I will do my best to not let my emotions get the best of me again.
"take criticism from everyone the same as the last and deal with it.
I take a lot of criticism. Well rather I get a lot of criticism in the forums, and a lot of support in my inbox. It is for those that are not stepping forward I also am attempting to speak for, as well as the others that were ridiculed and yelled at for bring up a "DtD" topic. That thread could be a cash cow for Hunted Cow if they took a step back and listened instead of fostering an environment for flaming and trolling. I personally feel intolerance should not be tolerated, and I have been called very nasty names many times in SC and in forums for respectfully expressing a less popular view.
Every Av went through the same grief of leveling as you and I did.
Agreed. So lets find where we agree, not where we disagree?
Edited by Nastasha, 11 December 2014 - 14:34.