32 replies to this topic

[Maehdros]

I would like PvP to be inclusive and operate in tandem, harmoniously, with levelling.

This, what does it mean? What does it imply? That PvP and PvE be completely separate? I really want to support your idea because you usually have good solutions, but if I said "+1" I wouldn't even know what I would be supporting :|

Fair enough

Yes, separate to most intents and purposes. Gold would be a common currency - but I can't see a logical reason for the 'same' limiting aspect affecting both PvP and the in-map activities. Stamina, basically, prevents anyone doing both PvP and Levelling effectively.

The gist of my idea is to have different sides of your character which you can develop - the existing XP/Levelling side governed by use of stamina, and a new PvP side governed by Prestige - slowly recovered over time, but also gained through attacks, PvP quests etc. This would mean that during the 6 days I am regaining stamina after a hunt I can still log in, play the PvP side of the game, and actually spend MORE time in the community than I do now.

This would allow people to simultaneously enjoy both aspects, without negatively harming either. The other MAJOR change would be that the PvP side would have its own levels/ranks, and hence the PvP side would be independent of your PvE level - something which PvPers have been keen on for ages. It gives everyone more chance to interact.

My guiding principle here is that a gameplay style which only ever affects others negatively is not sustainable, regardless of how it's set up.

Thoughts?

Have you thought about the impact such a change would have on HCS revenue? IE: players donating to buy pvp gear, forge pvp gear, buy stam to relevel or pvp more then their stam gain allows?


stamina = FSP= $$$ for the cows.

[Khanate]

This, what does it mean? What does it imply? That PvP and PvE be completely separate? I really want to support your idea because you usually have good solutions, but if I said "+1" I wouldn't even know what I would be supporting :|

Fair enough

Yes, separate to most intents and purposes. Gold would be a common currency - but I can't see a logical reason for the 'same' limiting aspect affecting both PvP and the in-map activities. Stamina, basically, prevents anyone doing both PvP and Levelling effectively.

The gist of my idea is to have different sides of your character which you can develop - the existing XP/Levelling side governed by use of stamina, and a new PvP side governed by Prestige - slowly recovered over time, but also gained through attacks, PvP quests etc. This would mean that during the 6 days I am regaining stamina after a hunt I can still log in, play the PvP side of the game, and actually spend MORE time in the community than I do now.

This would allow people to simultaneously enjoy both aspects, without negatively harming either. The other MAJOR change would be that the PvP side would have its own levels/ranks, and hence the PvP side would be independent of your PvE level - something which PvPers have been keen on for ages. It gives everyone more chance to interact.

My guiding principle here is that a gameplay style which only ever affects others negatively is not sustainable, regardless of how it's set up.

Thoughts?

Have you thought about the impact such a change would have on HCS revenue? IE: players donating to buy pvp gear, forge pvp gear, buy stam to relevel or pvp more then their stam gain allows?


stamina = FSP= $$$ for the cows.

Well... if more people PvP'ed, more people would have their own set. Would that offset the players not buying stamina for PvP? I can't say, but maybe.

[evilbry]

@RJEM:

I know you have good intentions, but you are approaching the idea the wrong way. For the sake of keeping things on topic, I have sent you a pm in game so that the token pvper vs leveler flame war doesn't start again. happy to discuss further offline, but I don't see there can be a constructive conversation here with the way the previous threads have gone.

[lordthade]

I applaud the concept of giving the person being attacked the opportunity to respond to the attack... but I think the far simpler solution is simply to send a notification to the player being attacked (we'll call Player B)that Player A wishes to initiate a PvP.

Player B then either accepts the challenge or denies it.

If Player B accepts, the fight is on and gold/xp are on the line but there can be NO BOUNTY. You accepted the attack, you accepted the risk. I'm sure some guilds will require their members to always accept the PvPs as is well and good.

Deny the attack, and Player A is only hitting for gold but a bounty is possible. (honestly, I see this as how much of PvP is carried out these days anyway since many PvPers are friendly with each other and I SUSPECT they don't bounty each other much-- another reason the BB is so slow these days).

Offline attacks hit only for gold unless the Cows want to add a box somewhere that allows people to accept all incoming attacks. It would seem code-able.

I would add, I think to make this more equitable the Cows should do away with the FSP upgrades of XP gain, XP lock, and purchase-able xp toward next level. Such bonuses allow players to not have to hunt or PvP for their levels/xp and since PvP hits only risk xp when they're accepted there's no need for xp lock (PvE should never need xp lock anyway).

Bounty hits should not be bounty-able unless they're over 10-stam, and no PvP-related rewards of any sort for hits under 50-stam. Basically ratchet up the risk/reward. The Bounty Board needs it's own consideration and changing, however, so this is eminently negotiable.

To really liven up gold hits, the Cows might consider a deposit-like limitation of gold-sending. Only allow players to send 25% of their gold to another player. Drop the FShelper sending mechanism. It won't slow players down much, but it will leave them out there with that gold just a bit longer. Gold could still be stashed on the AH, but that gold has to drop into someone's hands sooner or later. :wink:

[Maehdros]

I would add, I think to make this more equitable the Cows should do away with the FSP upgrades of XP gain, XP lock, and purchase-able xp toward next level. Such bonuses allow players to not have to hunt or PvP for their levels/xp and since PvP hits only risk xp when they're accepted there's no need for xp lock (PvE should never need xp lock anyway).

Bounty hits should not be bounty-able unless they're over 10-stam, and no PvP-related rewards of any sort for hits under 50-stam. Basically ratchet up the risk/reward. The Bounty Board needs it's own consideration and changing, however, so this is eminently negotiable.

Suggesting the removal of xp related upgrades is ridiculous lol. You realize this game depends on donations to survive, right?


As for the 10 stam un bountyable bounty hits. PvP is about risk, be it off the board hits or simple bounty clears. Your proposal removes the risk of bounty hunting , while also opening a big loop hole.Just imagine... 20 players x 10 stam hits on someone on the board to rip levels. They cant be bountied

[Leos3000]

You point out many could 10 stam hit a bounty, but most people say 10 stam clears. So if you do not win the bounty you can still be posted. You 10 stam complete a bounty you would/could be safe from a counter

[Necra]

so.... some thing like a battle field where the player gets to fight back the attack is not over till the opponent logs on to finish the attack ? then xp gold and pts are transferred? gives the player time to gear up and buff up stats and buffs are not visible to the other party , type thing ?



edit : gunna read it again. kinda confused on ur vision.

[Chazz224]

To preface my comments, I continue to be concerned about the gradual erosion of pvp within the game. There is less now than at any time previously, which continues to result in dwindling interest in the game in general. Each of the recent changes in the game have resulted in a loss of some component of pvp, with typically an increased ability of people who do not pvp to avoid the consequences of the pvp aspect of the game. We have certainly come a long way from Hoof's statements that this is a PVP game.

I believe that implementing xp gain into pvp may encourage people who do not currenty pvp regularly to start. I would love to see the Bounty Board expand to 4 and 5 pages like it did for the brief time period that the smasher medal applied to regular pvp.

As for the revenge hit, I think the idea works, but there needs to be risk of pvp loss if the hit is unsuccessful.

This is 100% spot on PvP is dying in this game. As a community of people who donate to support this game we understand that to HCS this is a business. In any business there is money made and also money lost but overall every business wants to succeed no matter what the cost and continue to making profits and gains.

I'm told that the majority of this games donators are mostly those who do not par-take in pvp at all (myth or fact I don't honestly know?). I'm also told those are the reasons to support Anti PvP in this game. I would like to say I am a donator to this game. I know many others that are and have been as well and not to consider our points of view is a grave mistake and I will explain why.

Those who take part in PvP support this game inside and out, meaning we purchase FSP to acquire:

PvP + Leveling Gear (old or new if not both)
We make the majority of purchases when buying buffs daily if it's to hit, to defend, or just level up it really makes no difference at all.
We also support the majority of this games Potion makers and other merchants with the FSP we have or buy to acquire.

If we separate PvP or remove it altogether all of the above will collapse and fall. This is logical and very factual.

I've read many threads where we players (those who Pvp) attempt to make sacrifices and compromises for the betterment of the game as a whole. People have worked really hard and spent hrs on in trying to formulate different ideas to please both sides of the community but it's all for not why?

1. Why should I be forced to play an aspect of the game I don't want too?
2. Why should I use my stam to PvP when there is nothing I gain from it?
3. Why should I risk what I have without anything to gain?
4. PvP Protection is too expensive, so is Xp Locks.

4 most popular questions and replies asked and mentioned in related PvP threads.

The unwillingness of one side to compromise with another is why PvP is dying it is also responsible for the remainder of the game dying and people taking losses all over. From Buffers to merchants to even HCS.

Players were allowed to buy PvP Protection (when promised it would never enter the game) that wasn't enough as many have said who do not par-take in PvP. To make those functions cheaper only serves as a Band-aid and even still that wouldn't promote PvP within the game.

Players want reasons to PvP and offer taking No losses at all and having 0 risk... Totally unfair given how those who have and currently PvP have always been at risk and have always accepted those risks and losses without any complaints.

To me perhaps a fair analogy of this would be paying little kids that jump rope in the park? Children Jump rope at parks for free in any country cause of the enjoyment they get from it. Why is PvP so different? People are at risk ok... People level up regardless of risk or losses taken. People have buff advantages, gear advantages, Game functions which also promote market place manipulation without risk. Still all of this is not enough...

When will it be enough?
When the game is dead?
When PvP is completely gone from the game?

This game needs PvP as without it is doomed to fail just as Sigma Storm did... Leveling is said to be boring, PvP spices things up and makes things interesting for those who do and don't par-take in it. This is why the game has seen so many years and continued to do well in profit margins. Regardless of what some might say or even think and feel... PvP is what has always made this game so great and so exciting from one moment to the next...

Do not condemn it... Embrace it, support it, learn it, practice it... Only than will you all see this game rise like no other as there is no second comparison...

- Chazz

[lordthade]

The truth is, PvP behavior IS part of the problem with PvP. The actions of a few have soured many. The mechanics DO need a change. I'm was only offering an idea.

[Chazz224]

I agree with what is being said here but I have a different take as well, another reason why PvP is having trouble. I always hear "Grow a pair and hit back" said to levelers. Sadly since the introduction of the smasher medal I have watched as players who have hit back are put on the BB and have levels ripped off of them. To me this creates a major double standard where some people claim they want more PvP and yet when a return hit is made they partake in this activity. I have also noticed sadly that players of a low level and of guilds that are not capable of defending them are still being targeted like a lion targets an injured zebra. There are many reasons why PvP is declining but as a group if PvPers want more people to play that aspect this type of behavior need not occur.

While I personally do not represent all those who pvp or how they pvp. I would say that given how the Smasher Medal was released it caused a huge expected spike in pvp. This being said and understood that spike wouldn't have lasted too long (regardless of the change) [ take a look at the bounty board now you can't find one]. Another perspective is the amount of verbal abuse/threats people receive who do enjoy pvp. Sadly no one is always right but not everyone is wrong and why people do what they do or how they do it. I nor anyone else can truly explain what's always right or not or the motives behind such things are. I also feel that many ideas have been purposed and suggested which look to be fair or reasonable. However things don't look so well because there are already so many functions that are available to whom loses levels. Many I've already mentioned whether that be Pvp Protection, XP locks, how about donations and AL 750 pots or Librarian pots and Conserve? How triple Xp events or even better how about new Global Quests offering easier and more productive ways of gaining levels... Now take all of that into consideration how much are people really at risk to lose in terms of XP and PvP? How long until people make up their losses ten fold on their next leveling spree? But yet... all of that is still amazingly not enough...

[Chazz224]

The truth is, PvP behavior IS part of the problem with PvP. The actions of a few have soured many. The mechanics DO need a change. I'm was only offering an idea.

The game mechanics are going to be changed. HCS has a planned update for new buffs to help save people Xp and perhaps gold as well as taking gold. Also one of the new updates involves the bounty board. Removing that free hit and in addition allowing each hit done in PvP to create a new bounty ticket that could be placed upon the attacker. So if someone attacks you 5 times, you can than bounty them 5 times at 20% experience loss while on the bb so ... 5 hits win or not could take as much a 1 level at the very least from the attacker or as much as 10 levels.

Also I'd like to note that the reflection of some who level do not do justice neither. If every person who received a nasty message reported it HCS would be seriously overloaded plus we might have to re-invent leveling altogether as you suggest for pvp... lol Bottom line is nobody's perfect and silly things are said or done sometimes in the heat of the moment.

[Arnagast]

Well the title has a lot to do with this post, as the biggest flaw I see in overall acceptance of PVP in this game is they way the actual combats work. Attacking someone either unbuffed or unsuspecting of when you are going to hit them does not appeal to a wide variety of people.

PVP can be fun for all, and to me I find it the most fun when you are hitting back and forth between people who know the attack is coming soon (for some it may be being deleveled on the BB while online)

What I think upsets a lot of people who are attacked is they have no way to prepare for a random attack thus having little chance to win upsets them especially when they are the 1's risking the most initially (gold and Xp)

I am Proposing several Changes to the Actual PVP system that should make it more fair and appealing.

1st Change

-Change how people can be attacked

How?

Set up a new attack system that gives both parties an equal opportunity to win the combat.
-when attacking you choose who ever in your range to attack (not in protection)
-You then attack and choose the amount of stamina
-When Defending you will now receive a Message in your log you are being attacked, but the attack will not occur for 2 minutes - 5 minutes (a random time in between to allow each party to dance/change sets in anticipation)
-Once the attack has started both parties amounts of Gold and XP are frozen before the attack (meaning you can not lock your XP or sell your gold before the attack starts)
-Defender now has several choices once the attack starts, do nothing, or buff up and change suits to defend their xp and gold
-Also in this system there should be double Xp loss if the attacker losses

2nd Change
-Allow people to respond to attacks appropriately
-allow each hit to be bountyable
-allow a retaliation hit (if this is taken bounties are lost until next attack)
for a retaliation hit it is only available once after the initial attack (not a never ending stream of attacks b/t the 2 parties)
It also allows the original defender a chance to gain back what ever XP they take, but as was stated in change 1 if they lose as the attacker they lose 2x the XP

3rd Change
-Give incentive/disincentive to attack active/inactive players
-The game shows players as being active if they have been online with in 30 minutes
-If you attack someone who is active you Gain the following
*Gold
*Prestige
*If 100 stam a tick towards Smasher medal (still only once every 7 days though)
*Defender Loses XP

-If you attack someone who is Inactive you get the following
*Gold
*NO XP loss
*NO prestige
*NO medal progress

4th Change
A system where the 2 people attacking each other have an equal opportunity to hit each other

-when attacking there is a 50/50 shot on who gets the 1st swing (meaning it is random on whether the attacker or defender hits 1st.)



*note these DO NOT apply for on the Bounty Board



This system should 1 make more people interested in PVP, 2 make the overall combat system more even and appealing, and 3 have a lot less people upset about being attacked, because it would be their choice to not defend themselves.

Personally i think this is the most sensible pvp topic i have seen so far but from the posts that followed after yours, its clear there is to be no fair. Both sides are never going to see "eye to eye" so these debates will go on forever and its just pointless now to even bother. HCS needs to just do what they think is right for the game and we except it or move on.

Haha i love the Sigmastorm II scare tactics of why that game closed down due to the pvp so this game will too... seriously funny. PvP was only a slice of the cake why that game whent down hill.