206 replies to this topic

[yotwehc]

Evarius said

I love PvP, but I also think it is not fair, and too easy to win against an unprepared or offline target.

I wish I could come up with an idea to make it fair for the attacker and the target, but that is a tough one to think of.

This would encourage more to participate in PvP, be they the attacker or defender

Like shooting fish in a barrel... Appreciate the honesty.

Another game I played accomplished this by setting a date and time for the "war"... I guess it was more of a GVG style conflict but at least it gave the defender a chance to "prepare" for the affair.

[uhsword]

Yotwehc said

Evarius said

I love PvP, but I also think it is not fair, and too easy to win against an unprepared or offline target.

I wish I could come up with an idea to make it fair for the attacker and the target, but that is a tough one to think of.

This would encourage more to participate in PvP, be they the attacker or defender

Like shooting fish in a barrel... Appreciate the honesty.

Another game I played accomplished this by setting a date and time for the "war"... I guess it was more of a GVG style conflict but at least it gave the defender a chance to "prepare" for the affair.

True and im not trying to fling flames at your face just saying but then there might be ppl who would it discrimination if theyre not as active as others are when they do get pvpd. If every fast restaurant had complaints from their customers about not telling them beforehand that they ran out of french fries or out of ice would you want a sign posted right by the restaurant the size of a billboard that clearly says "Sorry come next time were currently out of fries and ice " Dont forget that theres pvp protection it is useful to others while not so much to other fs peeps :|

[Spitfire666123]

Yotwehc said

Evarius said

I love PvP, but I also think it is not fair, and too easy to win against an unprepared or offline target.

I wish I could come up with an idea to make it fair for the attacker and the target, but that is a tough one to think of.

This would encourage more to participate in PvP, be they the attacker or defender

Like shooting fish in a barrel... Appreciate the honesty.

Another game I played accomplished this by setting a date and time for the "war"... I guess it was more of a GVG style conflict but at least it gave the defender a chance to "prepare" for the affair.

It may have worked in that game, but FS doesnt have mechanics to make it work. Was it an RTS?

Yotwehc said

HolySpit said

I didnt talk down on anybody threatening to leave, but honestly, Anti-PvP players hate anything that may make PvP stronger/better. Forgive us for defending an idea, like anyone who likes any of the other ideas would

Don't PVP'rs hate anything that make PVP weaker? It goes both ways and many aren't as articulate as you and will use words like "whiners" and "Crybabies" except when they look in the mirror... lol. If I were you, I would've taken the opportunity to engage the complainer and really learn like you are trying to with this thread. I would have also shut up the other pvp'r as he had the harsher words and it doesn't help your cause. But that's just me.

Of course PvPers will defend PvP. PvP is already severely weakened. You dont see PvPers starting flame wars on ideas for PvE...

[yotwehc]

uhsword said

True and im not trying to fling flames at your face just saying but then there might be ppl who would it discrimination if theyre not as active as others are when they do get pvpd. If every fast restaurant had complaints from their customers about not telling them beforehand that they ran out of french fries or out of ice would you want a sign posted right by the restaurant the size of a billboard that clearly says "Sorry come next time were currently out of fries and ice " Dont forget that theres pvp protection it is useful to others while not so much to other fs peeps :|

Ouch! the flames! although it will probably do wonders for my face...
for the less then active folk, it would make no difference if they get pvp'd immediately or in 1-2 days... Yes there is PVP protection but I can't think of any game where you have to PAY to opt out of PVP... Protection was also "weakened" such that it no longer protects gold. It doesn't effect me much but it certainly messed it up for our important potion makers.

[Mongo]

Yotwehc said

Evarius said

I love PvP, but I also think it is not fair, and too easy to win against an unprepared or offline target.

I wish I could come up with an idea to make it fair for the attacker and the target, but that is a tough one to think of.

This would encourage more to participate in PvP, be they the attacker or defender

Like shooting fish in a barrel... Appreciate the honesty.

Another game I played accomplished this by setting a date and time for the "war"... I guess it was more of a GVG style conflict but at least it gave the defender a chance to "prepare" for the affair.

Yeah, it is a tough one to think of. Setting a time for the combat, would be pointless, due to the fact the target could move the Gold which was the original purpose of the attackers hit.

I had a little idea, something like this, but there were so many things that would also make this tough to add to the game. I will simplify what I was thinking of....

Player A attacks Player B.
Player B receives a log message, Player A has attacked you, you have X hours to prepare or you can forfeit now.
Player A's gear/stats/buffs at the time of attack, are somehow seen by Player B.
Player B then has 2 choices: 1. Prepare themselves for combat gear/buffs/stats and accept the dual 2. Forfeit (combat takes place with Player B's orginal gear/buffs/stats at time of attack)

Then thinking more, the problems arise, how long should Player B have to prepare or forfeit? What happens about the Gold that was the attackers target in the first place? how do we lock that in place? as that is what the attack is for. How can we negate the ability for Player B not to share the attackers name with a friend, and have them attack the attacker 5 seconds after Player B forfeits or loses the combat

[yotwehc]

HolySpit said

It may have worked in that game, but FS doesnt have mechanics to make it work. Was it an RTS?

Don't remember... I have played so many games... lol

HolySpit said

Of course PvPers will defend PvP. PvP is already severely weakened. You dont see PvPers starting flame wars on ideas for PvE...

Defending is one thing... telling players "see ya!" is detrimental for all and you didn't call out your fellow pvp'r for doing that.

I'm curious, you say it is severely weakened, what would you do to strengthen it? What would you consider a FAIR compromise? I hope it's not your idea where you REQUIRE the victim to hit back twice and lose both before they are given the chance to post a bounty. Victim would have lost 3x xp by that time versus current system... yowza... lol

[Spitfire666123]

Yotwehc said

HolySpit said

It may have worked in that game, but FS doesnt have mechanics to make it work. Was it an RTS?

Don't remember... I have played so many games... lol

HolySpit said

Of course PvPers will defend PvP. PvP is already severely weakened (and dying). You dont see PvPers starting flame wars on ideas for PvE...

Defending is one thing... telling players "see ya!" is detrimental for all and you didn't call out your fellow pvp'r for doing that.

I'm curious, you say it is severely weakened, what would you do to strengthen it? What would you consider a FAIR compromise? I hope it's not your idea where you REQUIRE the victim to hit back twice and lose both before they are given the chance to post a bounty. Victim would have lost 3x xp by that time versus current system... yowza... lol

Firstly, who am I to tell the other guy to stop? Im not his dad. He can say what he likes. He has his own mentality, and I cant tell him what to say

Secondly, PvP is dying. I couldnt tell you if the reduced # of players were because of the changed of PvP... since im not the 1k+ people who quit. Though both DID happen at roughly the same time... so the possibility is there.

Thirdly, I dont know what to suggest, some way to get more people unafraid of PvP would help... fear is a the enemy here, PvPers arent terrible people. Forcing a retaliation before bounty is more 'fair' than the current system... At least the victim couldnt be bountied, and still potentially get some/most of their gold back, and punish the PvPer...

[uhsword]

Yotwehc said

uhsword said

True and im not trying to fling flames at your face just saying but then there might be ppl who would it discrimination if theyre not as active as others are when they do get pvpd. If every fast restaurant had complaints from their customers about not telling them beforehand that they ran out of french fries or out of ice would you want a sign posted right by the restaurant the size of a billboard that clearly says "Sorry come next time were currently out of fries and ice " Dont forget that theres pvp protection it is useful to others while not so much to other fs peeps :|

Ouch! the flames! although it will probably do wonders for my face...
for the less then active folk, it would make no difference if they get pvp'd immediately or in 1-2 days... Yes there is PVP protection but I can't think of any game where you have to PAY to opt out of PVP... Protection was also "weakened" such that it no longer protects gold. It doesn't effect me much but it certainly messed it up for our important potion makers.

+1 gotta love them potions :mrgreen:

[Spitfire666123]

Yotwehc said

Yes there is PVP protection but I can't think of any game where you have to PAY to opt out of PVP...

I can. Numerous RTS games have items that give you PvP Protection for 12/24 Hours, and cost a currency you cant get without rl money. At least in FS, you can pay gold, and dont need to donate for it

[yotwehc]

Your right. You can't tell others what to say but you can call them out on it. Any player, leveler or not, I will call out for encouraging others to quit the game unless their play style is detrimental for the game as a whole.

I know u mention u like to hit players for mouthing off etc. who made you the polite police? Who got hurt more by that exchange? I would guess not you else u wouldn't have done it so although u say you are weakened, I say u still have way more power.

[yotekiller]

When I first started playing this game the leveling portion was much more difficult than it is now. You actually had to think and plan your gear according to the creatures you would encounter. Because of that a lot of people took it very personally anytime they lost XP. A lot of players still have that feeling and have passed that attitude on to newer players even though leveling is so much easier now. Add in a few bullies/jerks/whatever here and there and you get a lot of hating on pvp. I was primarily a leveler for a long time and would dabble in pvp to add a little variety but leveling got so boring to me that I started pvp full time. PvP has renewed my interest in the game and without it I would have already been gone. That's my take on things for what it's worth.

[Denyza]

Reason no.1 (simple):
Scroll Adventure game, like FS, never really meant for PvP feature.

Reason no.2 (elaborate):
In addition to that, FS has the simplest and ultimately the worst PvP engine of all Scroll Adventure games I've ever played. I've played around 4 web-based scroll adventure game, and believe me... FS has -BY FAR- the worst PvP engine. PvP here basically boils down to main 2 determining variables: timing and luck. Your success rate is based on catching your target off-guard and how lucky you are in bypassing defensive countermeasure such as first strike, piercing, critical, buffs, etc.

Implication:
The implication is, sooner or later I would eventually feel "cheated" because the I feel that I do not have full control of all affecting variables. And I believe that is a fair, justified statement, because in fact none of the players have it. The RNG does. And it feels really bad when you've prepared everything right yet still lost a battle, for no reason other than just because the "RNG feels like it".

Conclusion:
So that's why PvP in FS is so unappealing to me. Not because it costs exp. Not because it costs gold. Those are just insults to the existing injuries. I dislike PvP because it's so very simplistic and very random. Some people may actually like PvP because it's simple and random, but I believe most do not.

In the end... everytime I want to PvP, I play Street Fighter IV or Defense of The Ancients 2. I feet that I have much more control to the outcome on those games, which in the end, makes the gameplay feels "fair" with more "deserving" outcomes -even of I lose-.

That's why I dislike Fallensword's PvP.
Hope it helps.

[aa0007]

For me it's mainly that the stam investment to do something is so much greater in PvP than it is while hunting. For pvP, you need to be constantly buffed if on the ladder (competitively), versus for hunting it's a one-time deal.

[avvakum]

Yotwehc said

There are those PVP'rs that do it for all the wrong reasons. They just enjoy the fact that they are torturing their target. Some will do it until the target cries "uncle", and a few others will keep doing just because.

Those are thoughts the targets put in their heads by themselves.. The source of misunderstanding has always been assigning motives to other people. That's what people do 100% incorrect.

[yotwehc]

Haha. Those were my thoughts when I used to do pvp. I was very much hated in the other game I used to do it in. Game is gone now. Too many crybabies. It was very adrenaline pumping to be the worst kind of person. It was criminally fun but it really did hurt other players and I drove many to quit. Don't want this game to follow the same fate.

[avvakum]

Yotwehc said

Haha. Those were my thoughts when I used to do pvp. I was very much hated in the other game I used to do it in. Game is gone now. Too many crybabies. It was very adrenaline pumping to be the worst kind of person. It was criminally fun but it really did hurt other players and I drove many to quit. Don't want this game to follow the same fate.

That's what I am talking about. People judge any situation based on what they are inside.

[mimdala]

Denyza said

Reason no.1 (simple):
Scroll Adventure game, like FS, never really meant for PvP feature.

Reason no.2 (elaborate):
In addition to that, FS has the simplest and ultimately the worst PvP engine of all Scroll Adventure games I've ever played. I've played around 4 web-based scroll adventure game, and believe me... FS has -BY FAR- the worst PvP engine. PvP here basically boils down to main 2 determining variables: timing and luck. Your success rate is based on catching your target off-guard and how lucky you are in bypassing defensive countermeasure such as first strike, piercing, critical, buffs, etc.

Implication:
The implication is, sooner or later I would eventually feel "cheated" because the I feel that I do not have full control of all affecting variables. And I believe that is a fair, justified statement, because in fact none of the players have it. The RNG does. And it feels really bad when you've prepared everything right yet still lost a battle, for no reason other than just because the "RNG feels like it".

Conclusion:
So that's why PvP in FS is so unappealing to me. Not because it costs exp. Not because it costs gold. Those are just insults to the existing injuries. I dislike PvP because it's so very simplistic and very random. Some people may actually like PvP because it's simple and random, but I believe most do not.

In the end... everytime I want to PvP, I play Street Fighter IV or Defense of The Ancients 2. I feet that I have much more control to the outcome on those games, which in the end, makes the gameplay feels "fair" with more "deserving" outcomes -even of I lose-.

That's why I dislike Fallensword's PvP.
Hope it helps.

+1! Thank you, you expressed it so well! This is pretty much why I dislike PvP in FS as well. I think it's good that other people have reasons for liking it, but I have no interest in participating myself because of the issues already outlined. But I don't get mad anymore when people hit me, cuz it's not worth it, lol!

[Splash]

Denyza said

Conclusion:
So that's why PvP in FS is so unappealing to me. Not because it costs exp. Not because it costs gold. Those are just insults to the existing injuries. I dislike PvP because it's so very simplistic and very random. Some people may actually like PvP because it's simple and random, but I believe most do not.

Hitting an unbuffed player with crappy gear, sure, that is simple and has its fair share of randomness (2% + enhancements). Hitting a player in decent gear, with even a few basic PvP buffs can be more challenging than PvE, arena, titans etc.

There are plenty of challenging and realistic pvp targets out there that are not too hard to find. You aren't forced to attack the easy ones if you decide to PvP.

Imo it is actually quite the opposite of what you say.

[uhsword]

DDRMAAX said

Denyza said

Conclusion:
So that's why PvP in FS is so unappealing to me. Not because it costs exp. Not because it costs gold. Those are just insults to the existing injuries. I dislike PvP because it's so very simplistic and very random. Some people may actually like PvP because it's simple and random, but I believe most do not.

Hitting an unbuffed player with crappy gear, sure, that is simple and has its fair share of randomness (2% + enhancements). Hitting a player in decent gear, with even a few basic PvP buffs can be more challenging than PvE, arena, titans etc.

There are plenty of challenging and realistic pvp targets out there that are not too hard to find. You aren't forced to attack the easy ones if you decide to PvP.

Imo it is actually quite the opposite of what you say.

Indeed especially w/ those determined challengers who atk ppl with deflect on to show whos boss n im not just talking bout the ones buffed in BB then again gear of course can be hidden and you might not wanna pvp unless youre like 100 lvls apart then let the fury begin :|

[Denyza]

DDRMAAX said

Hitting an unbuffed player with crappy gear, sure, that is simple and has its fair share of randomness (2% + enhancements). Hitting a player in decent gear, with even a few basic PvP buffs can be more challenging than PvE, arena, titans etc.

There are plenty of challenging and realistic pvp targets out there that are not too hard to find. You aren't forced to attack the easy ones if you decide to PvP.

Imo it is actually quite the opposite of what you say.

No it's not. First, adding buffs doesn't make the game more strategic-based, just makes it even more random.
Second, if you like the game and find it challenging, then by all means, play it. Just don't make it something it is not.

PvP feature in this Fallensword IS POOR, as in ridiculously simple and very random.
Period.

I even have a porn scroll-adventure game which offer more strategy and character customization than this game.
Yes, I've played a porn game which has better fighting engine than Fallensword.
I am sorry for sounding rude, but I always call it like I saw it.

Anyway... It is apparent that we have a completely different concept of "challenging". For me it involves micro-managing, whether it's strategy, formation, skill set, move set, unit type, weapons, magic, spacing, terrains, or whatever. Unfortunately, strategy in this game limited to changing gears, buff yourself to mojo, and hope that 2% or other chances buffs doesn't screw you up by activating at the same time. IS. THAT. SIMPLE.

I'm not going as far as saying that PvP in this game is all bad. As I say before, some people like it simple. If you did found that this game with all its simplicity is challenging, then good for you. I'm saying that for me, PvP in this game lack strategy and depth, and way too random for my taste.