Posted 29 June 2022 - 13:22
I vote no to having epics work with COA.
If you have them work: only allow 1 epic to work with it. 2 or more epics will break COA. And don’t exclude any item slot, that gets confusing and isn’t new player friendly.
Why would you sacrifice a set to have two epics, that will be a net negative i'm fairly sure.
Posted 29 June 2022 - 13:25
I would say mostly yes, but not enable it on weapons. EW1750 may possibly bridge the gap alone.
What I mean is that the buffs wouldn't work on them, but their being equipped would not stop the buffs from working on equipt sets.
~ Grim
Posted 29 June 2022 - 13:28
What I mean is that the buffs wouldn't work on them, but their being equipped would not stop the buffs from working on equipt sets.
~ Grim
Yea I get that, but in this case epic weapons (In specific) would be very powerful. I myself think it's fine, however I know some that think it's not.
Member
Posted 30 June 2022 - 06:48
Before we finalize considering the inclusion of Coordinated Buffs in with Epics, let's take a look at some stats, first, and the potential disparity it would cause, shall we?
For the stats listed below, the Periwinkle Purple, Daemonic Santork, Silicathus' Sandy, and the Poison Chomper Sets were used with the Greater Flamedeer Antlers for all math. Included buffs list is at the bottom.
~Current Flamedeer Antler Stats
- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points
- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points
~Projected Revised Flamedeer Antlers Stats @ 4.55 Stat Points/Level (Post Craft/Forge) at 67%/33% Def/Dam
- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points
- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points
As we can see by the two data sets, the change in the potential datasets show an equal 10% and 20% disparity between both sets depending on whether Coordinated Buffs are allowed to work with the set or not. 10% may not seem like too much of an issue at the base level using 203 buffs, however, with as often as composed potions are used, we can see that using composed potions widens the disparity between the two data sets. The kicker? The gap will continue getting wider as you pile higher level buffs on top of each other due to the way the buff stacking works.
When a single buff level goes up, the disparity inches a little higher, eventually coming to a peak if a person were to use the best epic potions available. There are other ways to give the "icing on the cake" to epics, but allowing them to work with Coordinated buffs SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. It would be an outright powercreep to what's available now.
Buffs Used: Armor Boost, Coordinated Attack, Coordinated Defense, Defensive Aura, Keen Edge, Layered Armor, Shield Wall, Smashing Hammer, Invigorate, Epic Forge, Epic Craft, Fortitude, Constitution, Sanctuary, Anchored, Chi Strike, Cursed Ring, Cursed Rune, Enchant Armor, Enchant Shield, Enchant Weapon, Iron Fist, Aura of Protection, Berserk, Evade, Fortify, Fury, Great Vigor, Rage, and Rock Skin.
(For Buffs with a Composing Equivalent, the Distilled Composing Value was Used for Those Values)
Also Included: Battle Totem 10, Health Shrine 20, Armory 10, Weaponsmith 10, Sharpening Stone 20, Guard Tower 15, Artificier 15, War Shrine 25, Healing Tent 10, and Relic Bonuses @ 10% For All Stats
Posted 30 June 2022 - 13:28
Before we finalize considering the inclusion of Coordinated Buffs in with Epics, let's take a look at some stats, first, and the potential disparity it would cause, shall we?
For the stats listed below, the Periwinkle Purple, Daemonic Santork, Silicathus' Sandy, and the Poison Chomper Sets were used with the Greater Flamedeer Antlers for all math. Included buffs list is at the bottom.
~Current Flamedeer Antler Stats
- Buff Level 203's (Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 432,071 Total Stat Points
- Buff Level 203's (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 392,927 Total Stat Points
- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points
- Composing Potions Only (Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 658,583 Total Stat Points
- Composing Potions Only (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 549,833 Total Stat Points
- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points
~Projected Revised Flamedeer Antlers Stats @ 4.55 Stat Points/Level (Post Craft/Forge) at 67%/33% Def/Dam
- Buff Level 203's (Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 460,715 Total Stat Points
- Buff Level 203's (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 418,974 Total Stat Points
- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points
- Composing Potions Only (Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 701,026 Total Stat Points
- Composing Potions Only (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
- 585,262 Total Stat Points
- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points
As we can see by the two data sets, the change in the potential datasets show an equal 10% and 20% disparity between both sets depending on whether Coordinated Buffs are allowed to work with the set or not. 10% may not seem like too much of an issue at the base level using 203 buffs, however, with as often as composed potions are used, we can see that using composed potions widens the disparity between the two data sets. The kicker? The gap will continue getting wider as you pile higher level buffs on top of each other due to the way the buff stacking works.
When a single buff level goes up, the disparity inches a little higher, eventually coming to a peak if a person were to use the best epic potions available. There are other ways to give the "icing on the cake" to epics, but allowing them to work with Coordinated buffs SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. It would be an outright powercreep to what's available now.
Buffs Used: Armor Boost, Coordinated Attack, Coordinated Defense, Defensive Aura, Keen Edge, Layered Armor, Shield Wall, Smashing Hammer, Invigorate, Epic Forge, Epic Craft, Fortitude, Constitution, Sanctuary, Anchored, Chi Strike, Cursed Ring, Cursed Rune, Enchant Armor, Enchant Shield, Enchant Weapon, Iron Fist, Aura of Protection, Berserk, Evade, Fortify, Fury, Great Vigor, Rage, and Rock Skin.
(For Buffs with a Composing Equivalent, the Distilled Composing Value was Used for Those Values)
Also Included: Battle Totem 10, Health Shrine 20, Armory 10, Weaponsmith 10, Sharpening Stone 20, Guard Tower 15, Artificier 15, War Shrine 25, Healing Tent 10, and Relic Bonuses @ 10% For All Stats
You are only talking about weapons here, that is bias data. Most people would say disable for weapons, there isn't much of an issue with non weapons. Weapons only speak for 1/9ths of the epics and they tell a much different story.
If not allowing COA/COD, then how about tuning invigorate. I'm going to use some random numbers here to explain.
Invigorate = 200% bonus 1 epic
Invigorate = 100% bonus 2 epic
invigorate = 30% bonus 9 epics
In this case it may allow for invigorate to scale well enough with wearing a filler epic and not make a full set of 9 overpowered.
Edited by EpicPiety, 30 June 2022 - 13:44.
Posted 30 June 2022 - 15:24
BG, i wouldnt be against some epic only enhancements, i also don't know why these new epics don't have temporal shift!
Posted 30 June 2022 - 22:25
No to allowing Epics to work with COA/COD. It will make them way too strong once more buffed up epics are released.
In the meantime, we can all reminisce about how broken the Greater Flamedeer Antlers were (used to work with COA/COD buffs).
I vote no to having epics work with COA.
Please see above for my thoughts. Shoutout to T for providing the data to back this up.
Most people would say disable for weapons, there isn't much of an issue with non weapons.
Nobody has ever mentioned this my friend (besides you).
Posted 30 June 2022 - 23:08
Provide the data for the other 8/9ths of the picture and compare. It's a different story.
Realistically removing COA/COD from the game may be a better avenue.
Edited by EpicPiety, 30 June 2022 - 23:17.
Posted 30 June 2022 - 23:23
I'm pretty sure if temporal shift was on the new epics we wouldn't even be having this conversation since a lot of perceived profit was the goal before the bonfire got put out a bit on their release.
Removing coa/cod makes no sense at all either. Neither does making it work with epics.
Posted 30 June 2022 - 23:27
I'm pretty sure if temporal shift was on the new epics we wouldn't even be having this conversation since a lot of perceived profit was the goal before the bonfire got put out a bit on their release.
Removing coa/cod makes no sense at all either. Neither does making it work with epics.
Temporal shift realistically changes nothing as far as demand at 3k+ which is where all the problem is with stagnated +7s. There is no value in temporal shift as far as epics go.
You can wear this set with 0 epics and get 100% with Empower (I don't have it cast) and all the benefits of wearing sets for buffs. For all I know there is a better version of this now, this is from years ago.
"Redacted image"
This all started explaining that they are not actually overpowered. If nothing changes they are still better than before. It either has to be a buff change, new buff or new enhancement otherwise they will not be used in PvP/Hunting.
Edited by EpicPiety, 01 July 2022 - 02:11.
Posted 30 June 2022 - 23:40
OK I'll rephrase it then.
The guide got updated with the new items the cow milk would make before their release.
Some players noticed this and suddenly were interested in milk.
They also started listing the chest drops that suddenly appeared as 'used in recipes'
Some players bought a lot of milk and thought they would be ahead of the crowd. Then the cows changed the chest drop items on release, I chuckled at that one.
The items were released, with a big stat increase. Nothing on the temporal front. Some people are now out of pocket, and hoping to recoup a loss.
Now we have this stupid conversation about things not being powerful enough.
Update the arena to EOC I agree with. The rest is just bluster.
Posted 30 June 2022 - 23:42
Some players bought a lot of milk and thought they would be ahead of the crowd. Then the cows changed the chest drop items on release, I chuckled at that one.
Well they learned a lesson to never take pre-released items serious. Hopefully this will be a precedent, stuff there will just be filler until last day. 
Edited by EpicPiety, 30 June 2022 - 23:43.
Posted 01 July 2022 - 00:06
temporal shift is a nice touch, an epic set would be more stats with less expenditure too, so u could reach more titans for cheaper, i'd like to see it added, i mean its not detrimental, right?
Posted 01 July 2022 - 01:53
Veteran
Posted 01 July 2022 - 02:06
The way I see it is making Epics do not disrupt CoA/D is just really a problem for PvP... It'll increase interest for hunting, of course, if you have a good hunting setup where the loose 9th piece fits with an Epic that gives relevant stats (damage mostly), then yeah, it's useful for hunting...But we already have enough damage and attack to one hit anything without a thought, so what difference would it really do? Just increase the interest and market demand, which I think it's the point of new Epics to start with.
But now, for PvP, would the stats of a setup with 4 sets + 1 Epic really be that different from a setup with 4 sets + 1 legendary/Unique/Crystal? I don't think it would be for level 3000+, but for lower levels Epics are waaaay too strong and that might be a problem.
On that note, I dislike the idea of just cancelling it to Weapons and make it would for the rest of Epics, it has to be simple and straightforward, that would create too much confusion.
-
All those questions might change once the Epics get reworked with the new formula, so I think we should just leave it for now, and come back to this subject once we have an idea of what the improved Epics gonna look like, better than having to revert that decision in the future.
While this is true for the higher levels, for the newer players >200, there are primary pieces in the hunting setup that are epics, and even some common non-set items. And the number of them that use CoorAtk.Def is daunting... You would be surprised at the number of them that don't even realize how these buffs work... The way I see it, these buffs shouldn't be changed that much, if at all.... Maybe they would be more effective for these things if they were more like KE, and dependent on how many sets are actually worn, rather than needing for every item to be a set item... Or, possibly we just need more powerful buffs for an individual item, similar to EW potions, and the ones you can get in the Arena token shop. But making specific items exempt from the exclusion of non-set items for the Coordinated buffs seems to me to be a messy alternative that would be more trouble than it's worth...
Just one old lady's opinion
~Love, Penny
Have you hugged your Quango lately?
Posted 01 July 2022 - 05:54
Well they learned a lesson to never take pre-released items serious. Hopefully this will be a precedent, stuff there will just be filler until last day.
You do get what I'm hinting at right? As do the rest of the game. Not about me, I didn't bother, nor did I go out of my way to source them.
Edited by Prop, 01 July 2022 - 05:59.
Member
Posted 01 July 2022 - 07:16
You are only talking about weapons here, that is bias data. Most people would say disable for weapons, there isn't much of an issue with non weapons. Weapons only speak for 1/9ths of the epics and they tell a much different story.
If not allowing COA/COD, then how about tuning invigorate. I'm going to use some random numbers here to explain.
Invigorate = 200% bonus 1 epic
Invigorate = 100% bonus 2 epic
invigorate = 30% bonus 9 epics
In this case it may allow for invigorate to scale well enough with wearing a filler epic and not make a full set of 9 overpowered.
Using a weapon isn't biased data at all. I'm going to guess you believe I was using a value for an Enchant Weapon potion in the calculations, however, you'd be incorrect. Enchant Weapon was set at level 203, just like any other buff level that wasn't available via composing.
Provide the data for the other 8/9ths of the picture and compare. It's a different story.
Since you asked nicely, the other eight slots were completed as well. I have requoted the parameters, however, sets had to change based on the slots used, so the sets are annotated next to each set of data. There's a TL;DR towards the bottom of the data.
Buffs Used: Armor Boost, Coordinated Attack, Coordinated Defense, Defensive Aura, Keen Edge, Layered Armor, Shield Wall, Smashing Hammer, Invigorate, Epic Forge, Epic Craft, Fortitude, Constitution, Sanctuary, Anchored, Chi Strike, Cursed Ring, Cursed Rune, Enchant Armor, Enchant Shield, Enchant Weapon, Iron Fist, Aura of Protection, Berserk, Evade, Fortify, Fury, Great Vigor, Rage, and Rock Skin.
(For Buffs with a Composing Equivalent, the Distilled Composing Value was Used for Those Values)
Also Included: Battle Totem 10, Health Shrine 20, Armory 10, Weaponsmith 10, Sharpening Stone 20, Guard Tower 15, Artificier 15, War Shrine 25, Healing Tent 10, and Relic Bonuses @ 10% For All Stats
Gloves: Periwinkle, Daemonic Reindeer, Poison Chomper, and Emperor Hydra Set with The Hunted Cow Gauntlets
Helm: Periwinkle, Daemonic Reindeer, Sullivan and Pistos Sets with The Hunted Cow Crown
Amulet: Monarch, Parfs, Vile White, and Chimeric Sets with The Hunted Cow Sigil
Boots: Monarch, Parfs, Vile White, Chlodwigs Sets with The Hunted Cow Sabatons
Ring: Parfs, Stalkers, Chancellors, and Pollen Sets with Woogle Ring (Project Stats Used Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Attack; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)
Armor: Chancellors, Stalker, Pollen, and Poison Chomper Sets with Egg Shell Armor (Projected Stats Used Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Damage; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)
Shield: Vile White, Periwinkle, Chlodwigs, and Stone Chomper Sets with Glob Encrusted Shield (Projected Stats Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Defense; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)
Rune: Daemonic Reindeer, Daemonic Santork, Periwinkle, and Pistos Sets with Cranks Loathsome Rune (Projected Stats Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Damage; 2/3 Defense @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)
As you can see and as now shown, all nine slots have disparity of ~10% using only level 203 Buffs and ~20% as Composing Buff Levels are introduced proving the growing disparity as buff levels get higher. What you're referring to above about weapons holds even more true when we start referencing level 1500+ buffs. If we're already at ~20% disparity with ONLY Composed Potions being introduced, introducing Global Event and Donation Chest buffs into the equation throws the disparity much higher. I'll reiterate once again, COORDINATED BUFFS SHOULD NOT WORK WITH EPICS.
TL;DR: You're wrong.
The way I see it is making Epics do not disrupt CoA/D is just really a problem for PvP... It'll increase interest for hunting, of course, if you have a good hunting setup where the loose 9th piece fits with an Epic that gives relevant stats (damage mostly), then yeah, it's useful for hunting...But we already have enough damage and attack to one hit anything without a thought, so what difference would it really do? Just increase the interest and market demand, which I think it's the point of new Epics to start with.
But now, for PvP, would the stats of a setup with 4 sets + 1 Epic really be that different from a setup with 4 sets + 1 legendary/Unique/Crystal? I don't think it would be for level 3000+, but for lower levels Epics are waaaay too strong and that might be a problem.
On that note, I dislike the idea of just cancelling it to Weapons and make it would for the rest of Epics, it has to be simple and straightforward, that would create too much confusion.
-
All those questions might change once the Epics get reworked with the new formula, so I think we should just leave it for now, and come back to this subject once we have an idea of what the improved Epics gonna look like, better than having to revert that decision in the future.
Hey Yghor! I'd be willing to run some math around the difference in filler options for specific sets if wanted for PvP purposes in comparing Epics to Legendary, Crystalline, etc. There are other variables to take into account when doing something like this, though, as there isn't that "one size fits all" type set for PvP like there generally is for hunting.
Posted 01 July 2022 - 12:59
Using a weapon isn't biased data at all. I'm going to guess you believe I was using a value for an Enchant Weapon potion in the calculations, however, you'd be incorrect. Enchant Weapon was set at level 203, just like any other buff level that wasn't available via composing.
Fair enough thought it was Highest EW being used. I look forward to an easy to add alternative. As I see it there is only three avenues, four if you include doing nothing.
Edited by EpicPiety, 01 July 2022 - 13:05.
Posted 01 July 2022 - 15:43
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