102 replies to this topic

[EdTheHead]

WOW interesting story on your friend, Kind of sad how easy it is for this to happen, If scripting was to get any worse than it is now I'd be joining the long list of the retired players as it takes away the fun when your competition isn't human

[ecolitan]

Strangely though, I am fairly certain that some of the worst offenders are not the people who have been suggested here or anywhere else I have seen. When I have provided information regarding this, I was basically told that I needed absolute evidence, not just completely unbelievable records. Basically, I needed to coerce a confession in a place that I could report it. What I took away from that, was that there was no way to prove it absolutely (for me or the developers), so there was nothing going to be done.

First, I don't know that anyone has been suggested as guilty in this thread. I've heard players mention names, but never in forums. Just didn't want someone to jump on that one statement and say that anyone in this thread has accused any particular person.

Second, my faction's experience with tickets on this issue basically mimic yours. What's somewhat disturbing is that players that were intimately familiar with the famous guild bust of Titan scripters in FS say that what was provided here was roughly equal to what was provided there when that occurred. The difference was devs there created a trap to catch the guild. That was not done here.

Finally, I disagree with the part of your quote I put in italics. There are ways the developers could prove it. What is NOT possible is for players to prove it for the developers (well, not without violating some laws or rules). That would require access to their side of the servers of course, or the Law & Order style last minute confession. Auto-kill Behemoth hunters could be discovered VERY simply, but of course you have to set the trap while they're actively doing it. Dynamic URL would fix all but the movement part anyway.... SF scripting would be a tad more difficult to discover (especially if the scripter was particularly devious). Unfortunately I am unable to add the "there is nothing to be done" to the italics portion. I wish I could disagree there, but I think you're right.

And, I also agree with you that teekill's last response gets closer to addressing scripting and the role of approved scripts in the discussion. The finger pointing did continue, but I need to also add it was totally incorrect. A LARGE portion of the player base is upset with how private scripts were allowed - not just three players in one faction. Whether they ended up being approved or not.

[seasack]

i dont use greasemonkey or scripts , but i think my clicky finger is faster than the matrix,so i dare you shysters to try and script on me :twisted:

[ecolitan]

@eco:
I am not sure what you point to that incorrect. But can I ask you a favor? More than once in this thread that you have totally mis-interpret my post (shown you, got ignored in your next ), and I doubt that is due to your big bias towards me. So could you please please read twice before quoting/referencing me? Of course, I know for my part that my English is there to blame anyways.

You said "there are 3 players in one certain faction, these three are not very comfortable with how the SS2 LightWalk was made available to the world but not them". While this would be enough to draw the script into question, it is untrue. As my statement clearly says, there are many more people upset than these three and they come from more than one faction.

While it really doesn't matter, I have not misinterpreted any posts. I have countered your arguments and ignored your calls for me to repeat the same information already given. Maybe it's your English skills, maybe not - but when you are the ONLY one that thinks you are properly laying out arguments it's probably not everyone else that is wrong over and over again.... Once I have made my point, I have no responsibility to answer your following posts that have the same incorrect assumptions or statements in it again and again and again.

Any time I quote or reference you I am doing so by the exact meaning of the post in question to the reader. This thread is about whether or not the game would be better, or not, if all scripts were removed. The discussion from most people has been about the ramifications, good or bad, of that. You have tried to make it a personal defense of the Helper and its authors. You should make a serious effort to separate what are clearly personal feelings from these issues. I am not debating your right to prefer scripts be allowed to remain. Or, modifying that, your right to want approved Greasemonkey scripts to remain even if it means some illegal ones get through.

Everyone in here says a large chunk of Helper functions should already be in the game. They should still be included even though they are in Helper (and that seems to be the unanimous opinion as well). MOST players want all other scripts banned. Claiming that we "underappreciate" Helper or worse, accusing us of being hypocritical isn't helping. It is absolutely NOT hypocritical to play by the rules but argue for rule changes.

Your tactics of listing YOUR opinions as fact and others' opinions as opinions is improper and doesn't advance your points with those that actually understand logic and debate. Intertwining your personal feelings for Helper and its authors with the debate in here is not helping. Even the animosity (going both directions) between you and one other player in this thread colors things.

If you want to advance your ideas and have them received in here, you should probably stop trying to categorize other peoples' arguments as "opinions" and yours as "facts". You should probably stop trying to accuse the majority of players commenting of "underappreciating" Helper or worse, being hypocrites by using it and arguing it should be replaced/removed.

You raised points about being "good" at something and how that might lead to accusations of scripting. That is NOT the issue here. Just for the sake of ending the "someone is just good" argument, let me give you an example of what many of us are talking about:

I am on a square with a Behemoth and over 8 mobs. The link to the Behemoth is NOT on the screen and there are no other players present. I have a good connection. I click refresh. There are still over 8 mobs on square, there are still no players on the square and the Behemoth has been killed over 10 times. There is NO PHYSICAL WAY that someone moved, killed the Behemoth over 10 times, and then moved again in my single refresh time. This happened REPEATEDLY.

There are those with faster connections than me and many I have a faster connection than. I am fairly quick and have decent reflexes. Can I be beat to things? Yup. Can I beat other fast players to things? Yup. That's all fine. Even if I win less than 50% of those races. You keep referring back to Lightwalk. The above example may or may not include scripted movement. I am betting at LEAST Lightwalk movement was included. But, it also includes another form of automation. The general opinion in the game is that Lightwalk was kept quiet intentionally to gain advantage. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter. It was an unapproved script that is now approved. The presence of ANY unapproved scripts is a problem as it makes it harder to crack down on the ones that are truly in violation (if you believe Lightwalk wasn't while it wasn't approved).

My personal opinion is that external scripts are doing enough damage that they should be removed immediately. EVEN if that requires losing Helper and all its features. However, I'd prefer if HCS did its job and programmed most of the tedium removing features of Helper into the game. I'd also prefer HCS to act as they've claimed they would against scripters and automated action players - no matter WHO they are.

[ecolitan]

I'm not going to respond the whole thing other than to say I again 100% disagree with your characterization of what was said by who. (see, that can be quick)

On Topic:

Finally, for your Behemoth hunting argument, all I can say is "do your homework"! Not here, but in FS, where the system has been evolved for a long time. We have a super easy Behemoth system here, and some players already think they are efficient hunters. Dmn not. I can go on par with any of those SS2 Behemoth-efficient players, but 10 of me can hardly be even with 3 efficient hunters in FS. And the so-call-mystery in your example, I bet your "some of the best Titan hunters" can answer that easily. Or you can find them in this forum/thread actually. Script? No. Smart usage of browser capability? Yes.

This smart usage of browser capability is patently against the rules if you are referring to the one I am. Confirmed with cows that it is ILLEGAL in this setting. So, be careful if you are confessing to using it. It is an exploit that automates the killing of a mob and 100% against the rules. Our problem has been that HCS asked us to PROVE they are doing it and we both know it's being done but proving it beyond what I stated is not possible. In FS they created dynamic URL's to counter the practice. This has not been done here.

Our Titan hunters did answer it, and helped the ticket process. How to PROVE, from our end, that this browser function (illegal in this setting) is being used is the issue.

The general opinion in the game is that Lightwalk was kept quiet intentionally to gain advantage

Nice public-opinion generalization . I will try to do the same: the general opinion in the game is that LightWalk was well-published in the well-known hunting guide that are available to everyone in the game.

The definition of a public announcement in THIS game is on a game sanctioned site (such as these forums). Ask the player that brought it forward to this forum what happened when they asked to have it made public.... My faction forum is not a public part of the game and no other faction forum can serve that purpose either.

All of which is STILL off topic as it doesn't address whether scripts should be allowed. My stance on that is quite clear. Defending Helper, arguing over what was public and discussing the cost of programming don't answer whether scripting should be removed and under what conditions.

[Pardoux]

Finally, I disagree with the part of your quote I put in italics. There are ways the developers could prove it. What is NOT possible is for players to prove it for the developers (well, not without violating some laws or rules). That would require access to their side of the servers of course, or the Law & Order style last minute confession. Auto-kill Behemoth hunters could be discovered VERY simply, but of course you have to set the trap while they're actively doing it. Dynamic URL would fix all but the movement part anyway.... SF scripting would be a tad more difficult to discover (especially if the scripter was particularly devious).

I agree 100% Eco - I think it's LUDICROUS that the cows put the onus of proof of abuse on the players, when they have the wherewithal and the facilities to set these traps and PROVE for themselves that these abuses are taking place. Passing the buck to the other players is just that - PASSING THE BUCK.

Come on cows - put the integrity back into the game, PLEASE

[RJEM]

The are simple black and white answers to the scripting issues at stake here.

Black: Any script which gives one player an advantage over another acting without it is cheating.

White: Any feature which is in the Sigma Storm helper which is purely convenience based (reloading, auto-walk on the minimap, find buffs, guild inventory etc.) should exist in-game and not require an external script.

The grey issue is clearly the helper and the fact it makes the game playable for many who would otherwise have left. If the only way to stop the cheats is to remove the helper then the helper has to go - with the best features ported to the game as soon as practical for the coder.

I'll clarify 'cheating' here:

-Using ANY form of autokill in any part of the game. That means having a bunch of tabs refreshing the behemoth kill URL open, using an autoclicker, using a 'Find Behemoth--> move to location' script, or any other corruption of the game mechanic which is move, click as fast as *humanly* possible and repeat.
-Writing, distributing or using any script without first having it checked out by the cows. The assumption that 'it's allowed in FS' is not a valid approval, since the games work very differently. Look at Titan-Behemoth differences if you don't believe me.

And now 'public':

-Whilst publishing on a Faction site does put the script in 'the public domain' it is unreasonable to suggest that the information has been made public.
-Imagine I set up a website, published it to the internet, and uploaded a script there without telling anyone. Anyone can go to the site and look at it - but by not announcing its existence publicly I have prevented it from becoming general knowledge.
-In SigmaStorm I think it would be practical to assume that something is 'widely available' once it has been published on the official game forum (or linked to from here), announced on the home page in game, or put on the Ultimate Guide.
-Anywhere else is covered by the thought 'Is it reasonable for a general player to check in that location before playing?' The answer in every other case has to be 'No'.

If you need to use a script or autokill to be successful in an online game that is free to play then I really pity you. I hope the satisfaction of beating out players who are just out for a bit of relaxation is worth it.

As a final note I would like to point out that repeatedly belittling ANYONE'S real life persona in order to make a point does nothing to advance the discussion. Respond to facts with facts, not gossip - and grow up.

[seasack]

doesnt anybody just play the game as-is?

i just click or use shortcut keys .... tell me how much walking and clicking there is to do later on in the game where ill even need scripts just to play( im level 189 now)

i say get rid of any outside helper-type stuff and play the game as-is , that should end all this silly fuss

[RJEM]

@rjem

Cheating:
+ totally agree with you on the first one
+ I think 90% of features from helpers fall into this category and you are classifying them as cheating?

Public:
Technically your clarification is correct. Realistically ... I believe the helper is known by people talking to each other and factions' forum more than from this official forum (where I think I am the only one who have been introducing it to other players). And your example is a bit strange, since the hunting guide I mentioned earlier is known by many players. So well, it is not black and white here either.

If you need to use a script or autokill to be successful in an online game that is free to play then I really pity you. I hope the satisfaction of beating out players who are just out for a bit of relaxation is worth it.

I and many others need helper, or to be exact, many features from helper. In fact, this whole thread goes with that idea. Does that get into your categories?
And since you just ask about the difference between Titan-Behemoth? I can answer you part of it: Titan = speed and skills. Behemoth (highest level) = energy and guts. That's why I keep telling those whining people:
I have seen plenty of Behemoths spawned and not secured (killed by 1/2 HP) for like 1 or 2 days, even the xmas Behemoths (lvl 340) (and much more days for lower lever Behemoths).
Get out there and hunt, more hunting and less whining.

And to your final note.... I admit that my English is not good enough, I can't be as skillful as some so-though highness to land some unnoticeable personal attacks. My words are too straight forwards. So I will back out with that.

Teekill, I know all about titans in FS. I basically wrote the current system. The difference is that in FS there is a 1 second kill delay so the cheating scripts can only get a single kill on a square even if they arrive there instantly. Here you can clear out a square (and under mobs too). That's the difference. In FS the Titan always appears on top by the way, so everyone can hit it without *cheating* and hitting it underneath a stack.

I *quite clearly* describe my opinion of the helper in the first 6 lines of my post and don't need to clarify them - it doesn't fall neatly under cheating because it was approved by the cows when first released. In my opinion every addition to it should cause a re-examination of the script to ensure it still meets their definition of 'ok' but this is unlikely to happen. Every feature that is currently in the helper should be in the game by default, so yes, the script is cheating in that respect but without it we wouldn't have a game to play.

As for the length of time behemoths are out - the difference has to do with several things:

-Value of the drops (minimal compared to a several hundred FSP titan drop)
-Number of active players (minimal compared to FS)
-Prevalence of cheating in Sigma (competition is impossible when new behemoths come out and the drop has some value)

Sure, I could easily secure a behemoth now - but when a couple of unnamed players are out cheating in force for a new one? Think again.

Finally, the hunting guide thing - no player run hunting guide is linked to from the game and cannot be considered as 'public'. I've never been there. I've never been to the forum of a different faction to mine. Should I be expected to know their contents at all times? Come off it, that's plain dumb.

(Off-topic: Seriously, where was the need for another personal attack in that post? Repeatedly attacking players personally is liable to get people banned and I really don't think this game can afford to lose any of its long standing members over a petty forum spat. Everyone should keep their personal opinions to themselves and get on with improving the game)

[acidic]

doesnt anybody just play the game as-is?

i just click or use shortcut keys .... tell me how much walking and clicking there is to do later on in the game where ill even need scripts just to play( im level 189 now)

i say get rid of any outside helper-type stuff and play the game as-is , that should end all this silly fuss

+1

I don't use the helper, although, there about about 6-7 things I understand are in it which I think the developers should implement.

[acidic]

(Off-topic: Seriously, where was the need for another personal attack in that post? Repeatedly attacking players personally is liable to get people banned and I really don't think this game can afford to lose any of its long standing members over a petty forum spat. Everyone should keep their personal opinions to themselves and get on with improving the game)

HERO

[supermum]

Sure, I could easily secure a behemoth now - but when a couple of unnamed players are out cheating in force for a new one? Think again.

Well, let's say I am almost sure that at least 2 of those level 340 Behemoths could be secured by ME within 12h of the frontpage announcement if I happened to be at level 320 with 20k energy available at that time. So, once again, these Behemoths, totally different from Titan, is only limited by energy and guts (and desires). And apparently, not everyone have all

I have a few reasons why those lvl 340 behemoths are not killed off real quick...
1: not many players are able to get to them
2: not many players are able to solo them
3: with content coming out so fast not many has the energy to spare to go after them
4: with the value of the items being so low people can not see the point in wasting energy on them.

I myself am still not able to solo the lvl 300 behemoth, and the lvl 340 one I have yet to see, as I am not chasing a ghost that I wont be able to kill anyway, and so far only 2 members of my faction would be able to kill it at all, as the rest are still a long way off 340

[ecolitan]

Finally, the hunting guide thing - no player run hunting guide is linked to from the game and cannot be considered as 'public'. I've never been there. I've never been to the forum of a different faction to mine. Should I be expected to know their contents at all times? Come off it, that's plain dumb.

Quick question: how many players actually visit this forum?
Then I just give you the same example I give over and over. The helper. It is not introduced by any sticky here, and as far as I know, new players are almost all introduced to it via other players and factions forum but not this official forum. Are they all dump (no offense ) to use that "non-public" helpers according to your definition?

This forum is endorsed by HCS. No faction forum is. There are many reasons that is so. You say "the Helper is not introduced by any sticky" which is true. BUT, it was presented to the community in this forum which provided PROOF that the cows had seen the post and had the opportunity (not taken obviously) to examine and approve it. This is the ONLY pulblic dissemination forum for players in this game. Any other dissemination of information (scripts or otherwise) is by definition private. You have had that issue with a map site so you should be VERY familiar with this difference. I believe that you do understand the difference so I don't understand why you keep coming back to it.

This may be unimportant to the issue at hand, but you seem to keep coming back to it. The helper is HOSTED off-site. However, it's existence has been publicly discussed in a recognized game forum. When the cows allow that conversation, and even contribute to it, that creates a form of public endorsement. The fact that players don't visit the official forums in large enough numbers is irrelevant. The same happened, albeit LONG after its introduction, for the other two scripts you refer to from the same author.

Easiest solution to the OP: HCS should code the most important contributions Helper has made to this game for nearly 2 years and then all external scripts should be banned. Actually that's a compromise as it gives a form of ex post immunity.

[RJEM]

@Teekill (again)

The helper should be absorbed into the game code and any other scripts removed. It would be faster and more efficient that way anyway (server side).

LightWalk is another interesting one - HCS 'tested' it and approved it after finding it made NO DIFFERENCE to their speed across the map. Seriously - No difference? This is why I question even HCS-approved scripts, as they, being human/bovine, miss things.

Is the helper today game saving? - Yes
Does that mean we shouldn't look to ban scripts? - No

N.B. When the 340 behemoth came out I think there were 6 players able to reach it. Possibly as many as 8. Given that situation I don't think you can compare it to a FS titan hunt with dozens of players on the map and expect it to be a valid comparison. Now, when Sigma Stars and others were going hell for leather on Altus - that's when it was most evident that something was up. 2 players beating out teams of 6 or 7 others? Interesting.