481 replies to this topic

[yghorbeviahn]

Also, I'm having problems with the logic of the event...

1 - We, the community, are trying to reach a goal, to fight together to win over....ourselves? By killing multiple time...Ourselves?

2 - I'm a player, I want to be at the top, so I'll be buffed 24/7 and be watching my back all the week against attacks over me, but I'm also a member of the community, so I want the community to help the common goal be making their attacks too, so I should be unbuffed so they can attack...Or am I putting all the hopes on the back of those who are not able to be buffed 24/7 and will receive more attacks than me? Am I really hoping the community will attack the weak letting me alone while I smash everyone?

I'm really confused with that, doesn't fell like a community event, I don't know if community prizes are properly applyed to this, maybe we can get rid of that aspect, name it PvP Event and give prize only for those who did X/Y/Z+ wins...

[wil72]

LMAO according to wil PvP Arena isn't PvP either.

 

Also, he seems to never have played another MMO before, because he clearly has no clue what the term PvP actually is. 

 

Player Vs. Player. There is no requirement of terms/risks other than a player is engaging in competition with another player, almost always in some form of combat in game. 

 

Play a few MMOs a bit before you try going all "rawr I'm an expert on what pvp is" at people over pvp, lol.

 

You're right, I haven't played any other MMO game. And what has the Arena got to do with anything? Oh wait, it's a form of PvP too, right? Yeah well, if you want that type of a PvP event......... call it an Arena Event.

 

I fail to see any relevance in how other games play out PvP . In fact, I'm struggling to understand any relevance in your post at all.

 

And who the hell is going "rawr" about anything?

 

I've given my reason as to why I feel this not the best way to proceed with a PvP event nothing more, unlike you who rather than debate the topic would prefer to talk gibberish and laugh hysterically.

 

Cheers.

 

wil72

[Bluetail]

I dont understand how people expect Xp loss to just go down the drain. A lot of you are looking at the Xp loss as a punishment or a repercussion of playing the ladder but its not, Xp loss is a cost. Just like how Arenas cost gold, or titan hunting costs stamina, PvP costs Xp.

 

Have you ever thought to consider how many would like to play the arena but wont because they dont want to spend their gold, knowing that they could lose? When youre new to a certain aspect of the game youll obviously doubt your chances to win against the veterans and then your loss analysis kicks in and you drop the idea, just like Arenas or PvP. Do you know how many more people would join the arena if we removed gold cost? Theyde be filling up quicker than they could start. Why dont we have a full week every one or two months where all arenas are free? Who wouldnt want the free experience?

 

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Youve now devalued the Arena. The Arena players will be outraged, youre offering the same thing now without the cost. Its no different for PvP. The Xp loss is a cost youve got to be willing to put up if you want a chance at the rewards. Just like a good Arena Master can win back his gold to reduce his gold costs, a smart PvPer on the ladder can properly defend to reduce the amount of Xp it costs.

 

A lot of people like the idea of no Xp loss because youve now removed an important cost from the equation. Everyone wants something for free and nobody wants to pay their dues. Maybe I want to play arenas with my Xp, lets get that done next. Maybe I want to buy Titan Rewards with my Allegiance tokens, I have thousands and thousands, lets start coding that in too. No thats not gonna happen, because I have to pay the appropriate cost for each game type, theres no exception, why should PvP be any different?

 

I hope people see why Xp loss is needed now. Honestly if I see another no Xp loss post I might rip my hair out. This is the reason we need Xp loss on PvP.

 

If the rewards on the Ladder were 200 FSP then youd expect tons more people opting in and wont give two cents about the Xp loss. The truth is that the reason more dont play the ladder is because they dont see themselves getting anything worth losing their Xp and thats just due to the fact 3-5 people are the only ones who will get ANYTHING out of the ladder. Why do you expect more people to hop in when youve given them a chance at nothing. Even when you fail to secure a titan, you get TKP in return for your effort. The whole player base can hit the same titan and everyone will get the TKP theyve earned. If the entire player base was on the ladder youd have hundreds of unhappy customers getting nothing. Ive already said it, you want more people in, than raise the amount of ranks that receive tokens.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 11:50.

[rowbeth]

GvG has also been capped at lvl 50 and above.

 

And more than one person required to initiate a GvG was a dilution in the extreme mate.

 

Capping at level 50 (or should I say "booting" or "flooring") I had indeed forgotten.

 

It may also be that I misunderstood what you were meaning by watered down.

 

When I read "watering down" comments in most PVP/GVG discussions, it is in the context of changes that have made things simpler (too simple), and took the challenge away so people don't have to think or work any more. I would say that both the level 50 entry point and the 2+ players to initiate had the opposite effect, and made people work harder if they wanted to do GVG.

 

However, if you mean those changes diluted activity, rather than diluted effort, then I do agree. Both these changes saw an immediate reduction in GVG activity.

[EpicPiety]

Xp loss goes down the drain here purposely by leos. Pure genius the people who are for xp loss are definetly the minority. Only way this event would possibly happen. Btw i think he said attacks in total not victories @yghorbb.

Edited by BigGrim, 12 September 2016 - 12:37.
No flame baiting please.

[Bluetail]

Another observation is that most MMOs don't take XP for people getting their feet wet actually participating in PvP, which is interesting to say the least. Most just give a massive durability loss for losing. A handful you lose a few items.

 

While were at it the Arena is different too. Why dont we make it like every other Roman arena and IP track the losers, drag them in from of the entire player base and execute them. Of course PvP in Fallensword is different than PvP in a bunch of other games. Fallensword is its own unique game thats part of a small genre of games still out there today.

 

Fallensword isnt some FPS shooter like COD or Halo, WoW or whatever game you want to compare it to. Fallensword is a 2D browser based game so there no point comparing it to a 3D game. All games that offer PvP without any loss, like Xp, ect, are the type of games that require physical skills (button mashing, combos, ect). In comparison Fallensword is a 2D game that requires a calculating type of approach in PvP, there is no physical skill involved in Fallensword PvP, its all mental skills. Furthermore games that dont make you lose something for losing PvP are not energy gain type games like Fallensword is.

 

If you wan to compare Fallensword to other games out there you have to do it in the genre of PvP in 2D, browser based MMO energy based games. All games that Ive played in this genre offer some kind of loss if I fail to defend myself in PvP, be it troops, land, supplies, points, or Xp. All these kinds of games have to offer the chance of a loss because since there is no physical skill involved and more of a chance, there needs to be a measure to avoid the abuse of chance.

 

In case you havent noticed PvP in Fallensword has become a game of chance, especially now with all the higher level chance buffs. If we remove the Xp loss theres nothing preventing me from repeatedly attacking players in my Ladder band until I get a win. Its very simple for me to just keep hitting because all pvp really is in this game is clicking (no physical skill required- no timing, ect). The same goes for defending as well, I dont need to defend if all I lose is gold (I can just bank this) and durability (UB covers this), I can easily just hit back when I return. The fact we have Xp loss forces me to reevaluate whether or not Im ready to lose all that Xp to gamble a hit and forces me to defend properly and not rely on chance or Ill be chastised for it. Xp loss forces people to play PvP actively how HCS intended and not turn it into more of a game of chance.

 

Do you understand not Gutie? This game needs Xp loss. Removing Xp gives a huge safety net to people who want to abuse chance. This is pvp in a turn based browser game, not a live 3D MMO that requires some level of physical skill. Once youve removed Xp loss youve added a huge margin for abuse and removed the aspect of PvP. PvP in every single game gives you a reason to want to win, in some games its Xp, Land, Points, Score, Items, ect, but in Fallensword part of what you get from wining is the ability to keep your Xp.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 13:36.

[EpicPiety]

^^^^^

Xp loss goes down the drain here purposely by leos.

[Bluetail]

Xp loss goes down the drain here purposely by leos. Because he knows the community are cry babies. Pure genius the people who are for xp loss are definetly the minority. 

 

You dont seem to see that theres nobody who would rather lose Xp than not. Im sure even the people who defend Xp loss would rather keep all their Xp. The fact is that these people understand that Xp loss in this type of game must exist. Read my above post I already said why, like five times. Theres no point for you to add to the thread if you cant counter the arguments being presented. Saying "We dont like something, lets change it" does nothing unless you can pinpoint a way to circumvent what Ive said. This is the way the game needs to be due to the nature of it limitations, so unless you have a better reason than "I dont like it" theres no point arguing.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 13:46.

[EpicPiety]

You dont seem to see that theres nobody who would rather lose Xp than not. Im sure even the people who defend Xp loss would rather keep all their Xp. The fact is that these people understand that Xp loss in this type of game must exist. Read my above post I already said why, like five times.

I don't think it needs to exist they can easily up durability loss by alot and take it out of the game all together. Xp loss can actually be very toxic to alot of the game. Allows big groups to gang up on little groups and bully them out of the game. No one likes losing levels... Now they can live with durability and repairs.

[Bluetail]

I don't think it needs to exist they can easily up durability loss by alot and take it out of the game all together. Xp loss can actually be very toxic to alot of the game. Allows big groups to gang up on little groups and bully them out of the game. No one likes losing levels... Now they can live with durability and repairs.

 

Did you not read what I said? The chance nature of this game with chance buff and enhancements requires Xp loss. You didnt say anywhere how removing Xp loss prevents people from abusing chance. When you leave it to durability loss youve given people who want to gamble the leg up. Youve turned it from PvP to gambling. Of course I can just run UB and turn all repairs to zero.

 

When you talk about a one vs one fight, there is no ganging up. A ladder band with tons of guildmates in it puts those guildmates at a disadvantage, trust me Ive been on both sides of that position. They have less to hit and you have a selection. Fighting five players from different guilds is actually harder than fighting 5 players from the same guild.

 

If you meant the board thats a completely different story. The board was always there with the ability to drop your levels. Nobody ends up on the board without knowing how they got there.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 14:00.

[Leos3000]

Glad to see a lot more discussion going on, and some other more complicated ideas. As everyone knows pvp in this game is skewed to give more of an advantage to the higher the level you are..

 

The other idea I had thought about putting into the parameters was the event also randomly choose the maximum level of gear you could use from say 100-3000 when it started to narrow the gap.

 

However this 1 complicates the idea (as I said I wanted something simple for the cows to implement) and it also has a chance to aliante more of the population of FS. As this would require to have pvp sets across all levels to be competitive or just get lucky that it was for gear around your level. So on the outside this looks more "fair" in reality it doesnt.

 

Another way this could be done is if the Global had a quest at say level 200 that gave a full 9 piece set that you were required to wear to attack people in the global. This might be more fair?

[Bluetail]

Glad to see a lot more discussion going on, and some other more complicated ideas. As everyone knows pvp in this game is skewed to give more of an advantage to the higher the level you are..

 

Making everyone wear the same gear doesnt solve anything, we might aswell all be unequipped for the event. I have a suggestion, but first tell me Leo, how your system ranks us based on our knowledge and ability to PvP better than the current ladder does.

 

And tell me how the higher leveled have an advantage in PvP, you still havent said where in the game they already do. We have bands to keep everything fair.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 14:01.

[Bluetail]

The fact is that I can keep withdrawing or buying gold to repair my gear if I want to rely on chance. Nothings gonna keep me from still participating in the ladder. When you have Xp loss I cant keep gambling because Im gonna get delevelled out of my gear or even out of my range.

 

The new higher chance buffs like Dispel Curse, ect. make this more of a reality than ever before. The system a lot of you want if full of ways that it can be abused and fails to keep you PvPing the way HCS intends.

 

Do you think they just decided that their players would be cool with the idea of Xp loss? Of course they know a lot of people dont like it but they know that it is what holds the whole thing together and avoids abuse.  They wouldnt have it there if they didnt have a reason.

 

When you make gold the main basis for playing PvP youve put a black and white cost on the ladder. It translates more easily into a value. Now at the end of the event people will complain that they spent too much and that the rewards are too poor, and once again like seasons, the chests will have to be buffed and the enveloped pushed once again. How much is your Xp worth to you? There is no clear black and white answer because to everyone its different and thats why this system works much better.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 14:21.

[Leos3000]

Making everyone wear the same gear doesnt solve anything, we might aswell all be unequipped for the event. I have a suggestion, but first tell me Leo, how your system ranks us based on our knowledge and ability to PvP better than the current ladder does.

 

And tell me how the higher leveled have an advantage in PvP, you still havent said where in the game they already do. We have bands to keep everything fair.

 

Ladder has become a novelty with no interest in participation. therefore people give minimal effort to win most of the time, and no one is going to go all out for 5 tokens. A global would have more competition and it appeals to more people and globals have better rewards in general.

 

Higher levels have advantages across the game because they have more access to everything. Whether it is gear, or the ability to get to more SE's, Titans, Chests, or cast their own buffs. The reason I keep leveling is because I like the ability to participate in any aspect to the fullest extent.

 

On titans sure its an equal playing field if we both hunt an ogalith, but then I can go hunt titans near eoc can you beat me there? No because you don't have access yet.

 

Also even the bands do not keep it "fair" if they did people wouldnt camp at the top of them to battle the people who enter at them bottom of the bands.

[sweetlou]

Seasons in my opinion, like a Fallensword mobile app, will never come to fruition for one reason - it makes no sense to HCS. It's failed once, why follow it up? There are too many players opposed to the way it automates punishment, its heavy stam cost, disadvantages players not ultra upgraded, and much more... It will cost to much to develop, and not only financially!

 

The latest "new" game feature, Daily Quests, was gravely disappointing since it's actually nothing new. Standard quests are already far more fun, interesting, and rewarding. And that says something! To me it is merely a ploy to have players check in more regularly since composing, which previously did the same thing, has already flattened out. And composing rewards are game breaking. The game needs something authentically NEW!!! I just don't know if the developers are up to the task.

[Bluetail]

Ladder has become a novelty with no interest in participation. therefore people give minimal effort to win most of the time, and no one is going to go all out for 5 tokens. A global would have more competition and it appeals to more people and globals have better rewards in general.

 

Higher levels have advantages across the game because they have more access to everything. Whether it is gear, or the ability to get to more SE's, Titans, Chests, or cast their own buffs. The reason I keep leveling is because I like the ability to participate in any aspect to the fullest extent.

 

On titans sure its an equal playing field if we both hunt an ogalith, but then I can go hunt titans near eoc can you beat me there? No because you don't have access yet.

 

Also even the bands do not keep it "fair" if they did people wouldnt camp at the top of them to battle the people who enter at them bottom of the bands.

 

Making it into a global will not make it any different. We have a global running right now and theres no participation. Youre just saying that without any basis. Youre also saying that people in the ladders are doing the bare minimum for the 5 tokens. Do you not see how youre contradicting yourself? First youre saying that Xp loss is too much and it should be gone, and now youre saying those opted in having Xp loss are getting rewards easily or for free. If you want to make one of these arguments you cant flip flop. Youre saying the ladder is both too hard and too easy lol.

 

Back on the topic of advantages, youre still dont have an argument. It makes no difference if you have better gear because youre limited to who you can hit by level, meaning the only people you can hit are people in the same level range as you with very similar gear. You cant use your top end gear to PvP with a level 200 because youre restricted, so wheres your advantage? Yes there are some small advantages in options but youre trying to compare the advantage youd have against a level 200 player in PvP to being able to cast youre own buffs. lol you can easily pay under 50k for any in game buff you wish and it will last for hours, barely any benefit to casting it on yourself. And no just because your able to hunt more titans, doesnt make you better at titan hunting. Having more options doesnt equal better, it can be more income but not competitively better. You wont be able to make it any harder for anyone else with your level, where as your level in seasons would make it much harder for a lower levelled player to compete.

 

I find the last point you make especially ironic lol. You just said that the ladder wasnt fair because players camp at the top end of the range. The level gap your taking about is about 500 level at its maximum where HCS expects us to compete. The level gap you want to implement in seasons is over 3000 levels. lol Im glad you can see the huge flaw in your own system.

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 19:04.

[Leos3000]

A bunch of  words that completely miss points and made up to make your own points..

 

You ask for points and then twist them so I am done trying to convince you, many others can see how this would work with current game mechanics.

[Pythia]

Sorry Leo, I could see promise in this just as I did in seasons, and might have even tried it.

 

I'm out of this discussion but will keep reading.

 

Education is a good thing and I do understand more than people might think.

 

Good luck to you.

[Bluetail]

lol you dont need to see the flaws in your own system because you wont acknowledge them. You can say what ever you want about PvP season. You can say that it will work. You can say that many will support you in bringing it back. But weve already seen it fail and the community already voted against it harshly (3:1 in favour of removing seasons). Yes we all understand that you and some other people really enjoyed banging on under levelled players but this is not something that appeals to the community as a whole, just a small vocal sect on the forums.

 

Feel free to take this thread in whatever direction suits you. Ive already made my case and Ive got no interest to flip flop around with anyone. I already said that I have nothing against you or innovation but if I see an idea thats not refined enough Im going to say why so that we can work together to improve it. I just dont enjoy people accusing me of manipulating points theyve made, when Im quoting them verbatim and have no reason to. 

 

And yes Pythia education is a good thing lol. Stay in school kids!

Edited by Achub, 11 September 2016 - 20:51.

[Pythia]

You needed to comment on my wishes and thoughts which were for Leo?