143 replies to this topic

[Alisa]

Another thing that came to mind is If the rule was removed, wouldn't that reduce the value of arena items since more players now have easier access to them? On the loyalty proposal thread people argued that BM500 would reduce the value of BM300 and would make arena less worth it and so it was cancelled. How is this any different? Maybe I'm missing something here, or I'm too slow to understand. 

[shindrak]

Another thing that came to mind is If the rule was removed, wouldn't that reduce the value of arena items since more players now have easier access to them? On the loyalty proposal thread people argued that BM500 would reduce the value of BM300 and would make arena less worth it and so it was cancelled. How is this any different? Maybe I'm missing something here, or I'm too slow to understand. 

Are you saying more active Arena is going to reduce value of Arena items ? I don't think so  

 

No need to mix topics... BM is bad for game as whole not just will reduce value of BM 300 

 

In my opinion i would like to hear opinion of other players here , it is only you and windbattle against  so far

Edited by shindrak, 02 October 2021 - 00:06.

[TheCount]

Sounds like a solid idea to me. I always have my own gear and don't do arenas though so I guess this doesn't really apply to me. On a slightly different topic, I would like to see the ability to smash guild mates on the ladder.

[Alisa]

Are you saying more active Arena is going to reduce value of Arena items ? if the demand is less

 

No need to mix topics...Why not? It has some useful comments of what happens when there is change that could effect arena

 

 

In my opinion i would like to hear opinion of other players here , it is only you and windbattle against  so far thats gonna take awhile since arena is "inactive"

 

[EpicPiety]

I only do arena when I get a arena DQ and maybe 1 out of 25 times I try to enter one, I get the  25% Guild mate arena rule warning since we do not have many arena players.

 

Making any changes to the existing rule will give advantage to guilds with more experienced arena participants allowing less slots for amateurs like me.

 

yghorbeviahn suggestion above might be ok, yet, opening up the arena rule  to 100% guildmate participation is not good.

 

Even I might take advantage of "boosting" since I've played FS over a decade now and  I still need 54% for my  PvP Arena Wins Bronze 

Arena is solo activity. Trust me in saying that Shindrak or any other arena player in my guild is not going any easier on me  .

 

If arena is guild activity give me an advantage by filling arenas with 25% guild mates.

Edited by EpicPiety, 02 October 2021 - 05:05.

[EpicPiety]

In my opinion i would like to hear opinion of other players here , it is only you and windbattle against  so far

I'm open to an argument against the idea, however so far nothing has any ground to stand on. All i know is, if by 2022 if nothing is changed i will just boost to diamond. Then there will be an uproar about it . 

 

There is absolutely nothing about arena to do with guild mechanics, aside from guild tagged gear that gives you any advantage over anyone else. Which is why I suggested it stay for guild tagged gear.

 

I'd prefer to invest in the gear, stimulate the market and play properly however it's impossible in an active guild. Nothing in the game should discourage activity. 

Edited by EpicPiety, 02 October 2021 - 05:16.

[EpicPiety]

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Edited by EpicPiety, 02 October 2021 - 05:25.

[shindrak]

Alisa, on 02 Oct 2021 - 03:06, said:

Are you saying more active Arena is going to reduce value of Arena items ? if the demand is less

 

No need to mix topics...Why not? It has some useful comments of what happens when there is change that could effect arena

 

 

In my opinion i would like to hear opinion of other players here , it is only you and windbattle against  so far thats gonna take awhile since arena is "inactive" 

 

 

Well that will make it cheaper for who dont want to play Arena.

 

Yes we can talk about BM500 in other topic , OP isnt talking about Arena shop or item value 

If arena got active and devalued of item no matter it was because of rule or not then it is another topic for sure.

 

Arena isn't inactive but not as used to be active in the past , over 100 tourney completes daily. obviously non of you play active enough in arena to know.

 

We are talking about players who want to play arena but they are not allowed because of guild restriction. 

Edited by shindrak, 02 October 2021 - 11:12.

[BadPenny]

I don't participate in the arena unless it's a DQ, but I'm pretty sure there's plenty of arena aficionados who regularly play the arena in my guild.... still I have yet to be unable to compete in a tourney because of the 25% rule... 

I'm sure there are plenty of you that want to get rid of the 25% rule, but this debate has gone on for years.... It has always been met with a definite no... 

I'm no gypsy fortune teller and I have no crystal ball, but my gut feeling says that BG will pop in to this thread sometime in the near future and say something like:

"No, we will not be changing the 25% rule for the arena" 

Every one of you should already know this is what he will say.... 
Maybe you guys will eventually wear him down, but I'm still betting you're just gonna get his dander up....

 

Edited by BadPenny, 02 October 2021 - 09:49.

[Toreth]

I agree that anyone can cheat the Medal easily already, but I think that would make it way to easy to group the same, let's say, 8 people going for Arena Medals at the same place to help eachother...Although I know that it can be made already just as easy if you know enough people in the game.

 

I'd be in favor of:

Guild Gear - 25% Rule

Own Gear - 50% Rule

 

PS: I don't play Arena, have not much say into it, completelly talking from an outsider standpoint.

 

I think something like this is the fairest you can be while making changes to help the arena, otherwise you run into the potential for a guild to monopolize the arena.

• Guild Members Capped at 50% Entry
• Half of That Can Use Tagged Gear

With 8 and 16 man Tournaments, it still means that 4 or 8 people, respectively, from a single guild can enter any individual tournament.

 

I completely agree with that statement. Plus there are nuances to combat moves as well. The fact that I've mastered almost all areas of the game besides arena says a lot. 

 

Not to come off cross, but if you truly have "mastered almost all areas of the game" then you would have a firm grasp on the realm of the arena as well. I'm not saying you don't know how to complete things semi-effectively, but "mastered" is a strong word. 

 

Another thing that came to mind is If the rule was removed, wouldn't that reduce the value of arena items since more players now have easier access to them? On the loyalty proposal thread people argued that BM500 would reduce the value of BM300 and would make arena less worth it and so it was cancelled. How is this any different? Maybe I'm missing something here, or I'm too slow to understand. 

 

On the value of arena items, let's look at a general breakdown:

 

8 Man Tournament For Prize of 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32 Tokens
• 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
• 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens

That means there are 64 Tokens coming into the game during an 8 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A Guild can have 2 people enter, so they can realistically win 48 of the 64 Tokens, or 67%.

 

16 Man Tournament, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32 Tokens
• 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
• 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens
• 5/6/7/8 Place: 4 Tokens

That means there are 80 Tokens coming into the game during a 16 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A guild here can have 4 people enter, so they can hold 80% of the winnings.

 

 

If the arena were to change to something along the lines of "50% of the entries can come from a single guild where half of those can use guild tagged gear," then we can take a look at a separate breakdown.

 

8 Man, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32
• 2nd: 16
• 3/4: 8

Hmm...strange...the total number of tokens coming in doesn't change from 64, so that would mean market value of all arena items would maintain. So what changes? Well, if a guild can now have 4 entries here instead of 2, then the guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

And what of a 16 Man?

 

16 Man, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32
• 2nd: 16
• 3/4: 8
• 5/6/7/8: 4

So again, the total number of tokens coming into the game doesn't change from 80. The only thing that changes is a guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

 

"That sure does sound like a monopoly, though!" Sure; kind of, until you work out that some of those entries are going to be occupied by Clare, Woopy, Shin, Juvi (occasionally), Sohail (occasionally), who all have more than the potential to knock anyone out at any time; not to mention the RNG factor of the pairings of the first round.

 

Take MoM for example: Shin, Winter, PowerLegi, Tilley - we're already at 4 there. What are the chances that 2 of the 4 of these WON'T meet each other in the 1st round if the 25% of total GUILD entries is increased to 50%? Just so you don't have to do the work, it's 7.9% in an 8 man tournament or 0.3% in a 16 man tournament. On top of the percentages being fairly telling that it isn't going to happen that often, you then have to take into account for those individuals losing as well - nobody wins 100% of the time, so again, there is no monopoly occurring.

Edited by Toreth, 02 October 2021 - 11:24.

[EpicPiety]

I don't participate in the arena unless it's a DQ, but I'm pretty sure there's plenty of arena aficionados who regularly play the arena in my guild.... still I have yet to be unable to compete in a tourney because of the 25% rule... 

I'm sure there are plenty of you that want to get rid of the 25% rule, but this debate has gone on for years.... It has always been met with a definite no... 

I'm no gypsy fortune teller and I have no crystal ball, but my gut feeling says that BG will pop in to this thread sometime in the near future and say something like:

"No, we will not be changing the 25% rule for the arena" 

Every one of you should already know this is what he will say.... 
Maybe you guys will eventually wear him down, but I'm still betting you're just gonna get his dander up....

 

If they give me a good reason I'll take no for an answer. Being unable to participate in an area of the game because you maintain an active guild is not fun. The thought that if more people participate you are literally taking away the opportunity for another mate to play is a terrible feeling.

[Windbattle]

Well in the interm you could rotate who enters to give all your guild mates a fair shot at it Epic. So it sounds like you want a meaningful update in the next year or your going to "boost" your way to a diamond medal. I find it interesting since most people have no issue taking the short cut to earn diamond medals (props to you for wanting more of a challenge, if reducing the 25% cap would increase the challenge). I find very little of the medals in the game have meaning after awhile. 

Edited by Windbattle, 02 October 2021 - 16:12.

[EpicPiety]

Well in the interm you could rotate who enters to give all your guild mates a fair shot at it Epic. 

You jest

[shindrak]

I think something like this is the fairest you can be while making changes to help the arena, otherwise you run into the potential for a guild to monopolize the arena.

• Guild Members Capped at 50% Entry
• Half of That Can Use Tagged Gear

With 8 and 16 man Tournaments, it still means that 4 or 8 people, respectively, from a single guild can enter any individual tournament.

 

 

Not to come off cross, but if you truly have "mastered almost all areas of the game" then you would have a firm grasp on the realm of the arena as well. I'm not saying you don't know how to complete things semi-effectively, but "mastered" is a strong word. 

 

 

On the value of arena items, let's look at a general breakdown:

 

8 Man Tournament For Prize of 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32 Tokens
• 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
• 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens

That means there are 64 Tokens coming into the game during an 8 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A Guild can have 2 people enter, so they can realistically win 48 of the 64 Tokens, or 67%.

 

16 Man Tournament, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32 Tokens
• 2nd Place: 16 Tokens
• 3/4 Place: 8 Tokens
• 5/6/7/8 Place: 4 Tokens

That means there are 80 Tokens coming into the game during a 16 Man, 32 Token Tournament currently. A guild here can have 4 people enter, so they can hold 80% of the winnings.

 

 

If the arena were to change to something along the lines of "50% of the entries can come from a single guild where half of those can use guild tagged gear," then we can take a look at a separate breakdown.

 

8 Man, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32
• 2nd: 16
• 3/4: 8

Hmm...strange...the total number of tokens coming in doesn't change from 64, so that would mean market value of all arena items would maintain. So what changes? Well, if a guild can now have 4 entries here instead of 2, then the guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

And what of a 16 Man?

 

16 Man, 32 Tokens

• Winner: 32
• 2nd: 16
• 3/4: 8
• 5/6/7/8: 4

So again, the total number of tokens coming into the game doesn't change from 80. The only thing that changes is a guild has the potential to hold 100% of the tokens from the tournament.

 

 

"That sure does sound like a monopoly, though!" Sure; kind of, until you work out that some of those entries are going to be occupied by Clare, Woopy, Shin, Juvi (occasionally), Sohail (occasionally), who all have more than the potential to knock anyone out at any time; not to mention the RNG factor of the pairings of the first round.

 

Take MoM for example: Shin, Winter, PowerLegi, Tilley - we're already at 4 there. What are the chances that 2 of the 4 of these WON'T meet each other in the 1st round if the 25% of total GUILD entries is increased to 50%? Just so you don't have to do the work, it's 7.9% in an 8 man tournament or 0.3% in a 16 man tournament. On top of the percentages being fairly telling that it isn't going to happen that often, you then have to take into account for those individuals losing as well - nobody wins 100% of the time, so again, there is no monopoly occurring.

Reading facts ! everything in one shot,    I hope HCs look into posts like this ...

[Brinmoth]

Personally I've subscribed to the school of thought that the fewer restrictions there are, the better.

I truly believe that the '25% rule' should only apply to those using guild gear.

That is literally the only impact that your choice of guild could have in the matter after all.

The arena is a 1v1 tournament format, not a team fight format.

 

The investment in backpack slots and gear to reach the competitive level is quite a hefty one!

Those who have made that investment should be rewarded, not punished.

It completely defeats the purpose of obtaining private equity if you cannot fully utilise it as you see fit.

 

After reading some of these responses though, it would appear the general consensus is that some restrictions are necessary to prevent a monopoly.

Recognising this, I think a bump to 50% (either a blanket or conditional increase) would be a fair compromise between the two schools of thought. 

As Toreth pointed out, the chances of any guild being able to monopolise the arena is statistically impossible within these parameters.

 

More people from active guilds would be able to play, spurring more activity and competition.

A win/win as far as I'm concerned.

[yghorbeviahn]

Honestly, what would be the problem with removing the 25% limit all together, with guild gear or not.

Besides the side of guildmates trying to boost others wins, what's the worry? Less demand for gear?

Coz as pointed out before, if people without Arena Bronze Medal can still be in the Top List shows how small the number of people who invest really is....So the demand won't be much affected anyway.

Honest question, please tell me if I'm missing something.

[Prop]

I wouldn't use the top 100 rated list at the moment for reference. There are active players with over 100 wins that don't even show in it.

[Undjuvion]

I wouldn't use the top 100 rated list at the moment for reference. There are active players with over 100 wins that don't even show in it.

 

for your informations, novice arenas dont count on there!

[Prop]

If that's the case maybe they should update that, since it's not stated and it's being used as a point of reference here.

 

I really don't care either way what they do with the rules to enter. Just pointing it out.

[EpicPiety]

Honestly, what would be the problem with removing the 25% limit all together, with guild gear or not.

Besides the side of guildmates trying to boost others wins, what's the worry? Less demand for gear?

Coz as pointed out before, if people without Arena Bronze Medal can still be in the Top List shows how small the number of people who invest really is....So the demand won't be much affected anyway.

Honest question, please tell me if I'm missing something.

I'd like to leave the 25% rule for guild tagged gear. it's best for the market that way. However it is alittle bit of a pain to play arena having gear recalled so it's a trade off i guess.

You are not missing anything.

Edited by EpicPiety, 03 October 2021 - 06:52.