64 replies to this topic

[BraveKath]

ADJUSTMENT - RATHER BIG - TO INITIAL CONCEPT:

 

Been talking to several PvPers in private messages and this might not encourage a lot more typically non-PvPers to try PvP, but the Bounty Board could and may still need to be a place where xp is taken.  

It's been pointed out that players like, and it's true should be allowed, to not only level, but delevel and there has to be a mechanism for that. 

Also the BB not taking XP hinders Guild Wars and other game balancing mechanisms.

I have to agree that a means to level and delevel for whatever reason - choice or force still needs to exist or then it too big of a departure from the game's original.

I realize that many who would have been more willing to try PvP where xp loss was never an issue will be more reluctant to take the risk, but the lure of the added value to Prestige and a Top PvPers List may be sufficient draws for some and I can only hope that would be the case and more folks PvPing is more activity and thus good for the game.

Compromise, give and take, believing mutual respect is important, brain-storming and willing to consider change are how we work together towards something positive.

Kath

Edited by BraveKath, 16 April 2014 - 01:35.

[gomezkilla]

This is all getting a little confusing for me. Let me recap this thread a little and correct me if I am wrong.

 

1. The xp/gold loss would be eliminated and replaced by a Prestige gaining/losing process

      - Prestige top 100 ladder and store coming off of that

2. Restricting PvP buffs that can be used to their VL (is this right?)

3. Updated to xp/gold loss kept in the bounty board

 

Are these points correct? I would like a confirmation so that I can comment and have my comment actually make sense to the topic.

[BraveKath]

This is all getting a little confusing for me. Let me recap this thread a little and correct me if I am wrong.

 

1. The xp/gold loss would be eliminated and replaced by a Prestige gaining/losing process

      - Prestige top 100 ladder and store coming off of that

2. Restricting PvP buffs that can be used to their VL (is this right?)

3. Updated to xp/gold loss kept in the bounty board

 

Are these points correct? I would like a confirmation so that I can comment and have my comment actually make sense to the topic.

 

No restriction on buffs.  The VL is about allowing people to sell off their Prestige yet retain credit in the PvP standings of what they attained.

Tell me where the buffs confusion happened -- and the fault isn't yours, if I didn't communicate it clearly, then it's mine.

[Chazz224]

I think it's wonderful that so many players in the game have been sharing and trying to come with ideas / topics on how to improve PvP in the game.

 

However - PvP should always carry RISK+ REWARD = This clearly would result in XP Loss - and Gold Loss.

 

Our Devs reaffirmed that this is a PvP game.

 

In many ways PvP has been nerf'd and I hope through healthy and positive topics that maintain the principals of PvP ( Risk + Reward for all players in game where XP and Gold loss remain)  I hope to see some good changes for all players in the future that encourage PvP game wide one day.

 

-Chazz

[gomezkilla]

No restriction on buffs.  The VL is about allowing people to sell off their Prestige yet retain credit in the PvP standings of what they attained.

Tell me where the buffs confusion happened -- and the fault isn't yours, if I didn't communicate it clearly, then it's mine.

Ok. And the buffs thing was my brain not working. I read "no reason to restrict" and my brain told me "restrict".

 

First, I want to say that xp/gold loss shouldn't be removed from PvP at all, that includes regular PvP and the BB. It just doesn't sit right with me thinking that it should be removed. 

Secondly, I like the idea of putting more use into Prestige. Having a top 100 and a store for it is perfect!

 

This all reminds me of the old dominance medal. I believe it was "Being in top 100 in the dominance ladder for X hours" or something like that before the PvP ladder came along. And I, for one, would love to see that back in the game.

 

Nice ideas Brave.

 

Gomez.

[BraveKath]

Thanks Gomez  

I too like the idea, obviously, of Prestige being more flexible and having more value.  

I respect that you don't agree with no xp/gold loss and I realize that many agree.  It's an idea just in hopes to address some of the issues that I have not been necessarily helpful to the game as a whole.  

What if xp loss was off the table, except for the BB?  Just curious your thoughts.

[gomezkilla]

What if xp loss was off the table, except for the BB?  Just curious your thoughts.

This could work, but gold loss would still have to on the table for PvP all-round. No real incentive to bounty people if they aren't really losing anything except Prestige.

[BraveKath]

I think it's wonderful that so many players in the game have been sharing and trying to come with ideas / topics on how to improve PvP in the game.

 

However - PvP should always carry RISK+ REWARD = This clearly would result in XP Loss - and Gold Loss.

 

Our Devs reaffirmed that this is a PvP game.

 

In many ways PvP has been nerf'd and I hope through healthy and positive topics that maintain the principals of PvP ( Risk + Reward for all players in game where XP and Gold loss remain)  I hope to see some good changes for all players in the future that encourage PvP game wide one day.

 

-Chazz

 

Hi Chazz,

 

Thank you for commenting.

 

This thread still presumes this is a PvP game as PvP by it's definition is Player vs Player, but the concept of PvP does not specify what is at Risk, nor what the Rewards are.

Risk and Reward are not mandated in the gaming world to be xp and gold.  Many games that are primarily PvP, and not a blend like this game, do not risk xp or gold and instead only risk what would be termed Prestige in the language of FS.

 

In those games the players with the most "prestige" have the most skills and abilities.  That model would not be entirely applicable here, but the ideas proposed are adjusted to this environment.  Doesn't mean they are a total fit, but maybe they're a stepping stone to an improvement that is novel and truly changes up the game in a positive way that encourages everyone to play more and garners a significant spike in old and new players.  It may not -- it's an idea and I have always felt that if we're afraid to discuss ideas or place limits on them that we stagnate ourselves.  We'd still think the world was flat if we weren't willing to consider out of the box thinking.

 

That being said, we are now discussing that XP loss should be at risk on the BB, same as now, thus a blend of old ideas and new.

 

Again, thanks for commenting, Kath

Edited by BraveKath, 16 April 2014 - 01:33.

[BraveKath]

This could work, but gold loss would still have to on the table for PvP all-round. No real incentive to bounty people if they aren't really losing anything except Prestige.

 

Even if Prestige is more flexible and easier to use and has monetary value?

Granted even with that, you may be right -- it may not.

[BraveKath]

PvP Event:

If this idea for day-to-day PVP goes no where, I do think it would be the answer to the discussions of having a PvP event, as it would be the one way to truly get people involved in it.  Just my opinion.  If a PvP event is just the same old, same old and doesn't encourage the typically non-PvPer to explore PvP then I think it's a fail.  An event that only speaks to one segment of the game group isn't that advantageous and one that is politically charged.

[sweetlou]

As original as this idea sounds, unless you lose something that has value to you there is no risk nor conflict. This is the essence of the game! I do like how you used Prestige as a focal point to change things.

[BraveKath]

 Thanks Lou ... just trying to think outside the box, but it may be too far out or not far enough     

Give it some thought, maybe you'll latch on to the ticket that will solve this conundrum

[volcom]

I'm going to cut quite to the chase, and you can hate on me for my opinion how much ever you please because its my opinion and I'm entitled to it. 

 

The only real way to "revive" PvP is to drop all the crap we added to the original PvP system. Yes that means a system where all players are on a universal ladder. I understand why you non-pvp players wouldn't like this but if you really value your XP so much, then you can buy PvP Protection just like the Cows intended for it to be used instead of whining and crying over getting hit for gold when you very much able to defend your gold and keep it from being stolen.

 

As of right now, it seems non-PvP players just want a win button so that they can't lose xp or gold. PvP is a major part of this game whether you like it or not. When the Cows introduced the new system, hundreds of players retired because it made the game boring and dull (many of them were PvP Players, notice how most of the 1000+ players stuck around after the new PvP system was implemented? And yet so many of the lower level, PvP minded folks just quit because the Cows ruined the one thing they did to have fun in this game.)

 

SO, in conclusion, my suggestion is, BRING BACK THE OLD PVP SYSTEM. 

 

Who knows, maybe some of the old-timers will come back and enjoy the game again. 

 

 

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Disclaimer: If I have offended you (whomever you may be), please go to the game and find a bounty on me and smash me. Do not try to offend me by talking trash about me, yada yada yada. My post is not pointing at anyone in specific. It is just my opinion on how the game should be looking at PvP. 

[BraveKath]

I'm going to cut quite to the chase, and you can hate on me for my opinion how much ever you please because its my opinion and I'm entitled to it. 

 

The only real way to "revive" PvP is to drop all the crap we added to the original PvP system. Yes that means a system where all players are on a universal ladder. I understand why you non-pvp players wouldn't like this but if you really value your XP so much, then you can buy PvP Protection just like the Cows intended for it to be used instead of whining and crying ...... (see above for full post)

 

Hi Volcom,

No reason to assume you're going to be hated and its a counter-productive mindset. Viewpoints and ideas are valuable to share. The more constructive they are the better.

The "old PvP system" didn't include PvP Protection and I am proposing doing away with it and that it's one ladder for all, no opt in/out - you're there.

I assume your viewpoint is that if it's not xp and gold, then it's not satisfying and that's okay.  That's how you feel about it and that's important to the discussion.

I know a lot of PvPers and PvEers who have quit the game because they're tired of the flaming, mud slinging and brutal delevels where even PvPers just felt it was all futile.  Both PvPers and PvEers have quit.  It's been said dozens of times, none of us have the #'s of which population has taken the greatest hits and that's HCS' business to sort out and we can speculate all we want, but it's all theory.
 

Let's face it, when we're talking about Win buttons, how is it not an Easy Win Button when a PvPer hits a scavenger or leveler in the midst of their hunt or when they put on their epics and haven't stored all their gold yet?  That's a win.  It's also a win when we have friends soft clear our bounties or even leave them.  So each side has their "Win Buttons".

There are only a few non-Easy Win Buttons in this game:
1)  When 2+ PvP'ers knowingly go up against each other and truly try for the win. 

2) Bounty Hunting against a target that is truly a challenge and doing one's best to finish and win.

3)  PvP Arena I think should go in this category

4)  To some degree Titan Hunting (sans scripts) and I guess SE Hunting

5) GvG -- though it has so many problems that the almost hesitant to post here, but it's still doesn't go in the Easy Win Category (generally)

 

I end with this thought: Life rarely goes backwards, it moves forward and we can learn from the past and we can aim to not repeat our failures, but we can also not live it again except in our dreams.

Thank you for sharing your views and emotions on this subject.  You're passionate about it, because you love PvP and whether you believe it or not, so do I; but I also just had an idea and wanted to explore if there was a different way to re-imagine the PvP commodities - that's all

 

- Kath

Edited by BraveKath, 16 April 2014 - 05:58.

[rowbeth]

Xp loss on the BB doesn't bother me. If people chose to PVP, then they chose to take on those forms of risk, and do it knowingly. If one aim is to increase the participation in PVP by non-PVPers, then the mechanism for getting on the BB might need to be thought through innovatively.

 

When people talk about PVP needing to carry risk, I'd add the question of risk for whom? The PVP system can carry risk for the initiator without needing to have risk for the victim. Or the system could carry different levels of risk: more for the initiator and less for the victim. (I have read posts from some PVPers on various forums where they said the risk when they PVP is part of the buzz they get from doing it. I have no idea of how representative they are of the PVP community in general, but the fact that they exist makes this question worth asking.)

 

As a leveler, what I want is the sense that I can control my risk - to the extent that if I get hit I can blame my own silly actions, or believe that I was very unlucky. Actually, under the early PVP system (2007-2008 ish) I had that. Even though PVPers in recent forums have kept citing that as a great time when PVP was a major part of the game, it was actually a time when I found it easy to play with virtually no involvement in PVP: I got hit by one person at level 16 (when I didn't even know that PVP existed), by one person at level 65 and then not again until around level 650 when the PVP rating system started to get reset regularly. So that was just 2 events in the 2.5 years it took me to reach level 650. The reason I could do that was mainly because the PVP rating gain depended on the difference between PVP ratings and those ratings never got reset. So I sat on a rating of 999, was careful where to put my gold, and never attracted the interest of PVPers.

 

I explain this at length to try to give some insight into where I - as a leveller - am coming from in this debate. I want both PVPers and levellers (and farmers, and scavengers...) to enjoy this game. I'd suggest (though pelase do correct me if I'm wrong, as I am inferring) that most PVPers enjoy risk - or at least enjoy the rewards more than they dislike the risk - while most levellers wish to control risk. If we wish to keep players in the game, then maybe the PVP system needs to create a bigger split in the levels of risk carried by initiator and victim in PVP.

 

 

As an aside - I wonder whether what people look back to as good about 2008 was largely just lots of people - lots of all types of players. I look back on 2008 as a low point on general PVP activity in the game (from my perspective it was, as I've explained above), whereas PVPers were seeing lots of PVP. But we had lots of people. The AH moved quickly with lots of volume and lots of turnover on cheap and expensive items; merchants had lots more activity; hunts had competition for getting the creatures on a given site; SEs would be found quite quickly by multiple wanderers... We have no idea whether the percentage of PVPers was greater, less, or the same back then. So we have no idea whether that system created more or less activity than the current one. What we do know is that when the old game was actually quite new, it attracted a lot more players of every persuasion. Distinguishing cause, effect and random correlation is a crucial part of learning from history; and not distinguishing between these is a common cause of repeating the mistakes of the past. I'd really endorse Kath's sentiment about trying to shape a future rather than return to the past - and to make that a future we will all enjoy.

Edited by rowbeth, 16 April 2014 - 07:31.

[BraveKath]

Rowbeth -- eloquent, logical and thought provoking.  Thank you.  

Not going to comment further at this point, as still mulling it over, but wholeheartedly agree with wanting more players of EVERY persuasion

[andyvince]

If  PvP does NOT take xp and gold, will be good if  we are allow to attack each other more often, not waiting for 1 hour to pass. The 1 hour waiting period I believe was kind of protection limiting the damage from malicious PvP attacks?

So able to attack more often means more PvP activities right?  I do occasionally enjoy challenge of hitting players with better gears than me. I know I can have a shot at winning with combination of 2 or more of Shatter Armor, Force Shield, Last Ditch, Reflection, Piecing Strike etc activating. Sometime I also like to test to see the order of different buffs being activated, if activation rate consistence with the deception. Having wait 1 hour every time isn’t really a good experience.

 

But Remove gold or xp loss would be radical, involving other part of game. Some of existing buffs like Gloat, and Enhancements like Thievery, Master Thief, Protect Gold, Protection would be redundant for example.

[yodamus]

i will try again with this suggestion- even as a leveler i feel some xp loss and gold loss should happen...just make the xp loss less- like 1-2% of a level for 100 stam hit- and bigger % when on bb, but the amount of gold taken should be much higher- 50-80% gold taken for 100 stam hit , 80-100% if master thief activates..giving pvpers a chance to steal a lot of gold in one hit...should even things out a bit..helps to allow levelers to absorb quite a few hits without really harming thier game and allow pvpers to make more gold..and hopefully still make players upset enough to post bounties, but not leave the game..so hard to come up with compromises..feel for the cows on this issue..

[Calista]

Hey Kath. Really nice suggestions and discussion here. It's refreshing to read a PvP topic and not get fed up with the nastiness within the first few posts.

I think the sheer number of topics and passionate players who keep coming back to PvP shows we can all agree on one thing.... something is wrong. It's not working and we want to fix it. The one thing that keeps getting in the way is this strong divide between PvE and PvP players. We've tried for years to find common ground. Both sides want something completely different. It's nice to see so many working together to try and find some middle ground.

PvE players want a way to 'punish' PvP players. They want a guaranteed easy way to get revenge and not get their hands dirty. But no matter what changes HCS makes to PvP, the rules apply to all types of players. So the PvE player is still required to do some work if they want to use the system to actually 'punish' someone. Guilds and friends have to work together. Delevel parties have to be done. They have to put themselves at risk. Basically, they have to work as PvP players do to get the result they want. Of course they don't want that so they view the system as flawed. It's a hard sell no matter what you offer.

PvP players like the risk and conflict that comes along with PvP. We want people to fight back! We want to do damage just as much as survive it. Working with your friends and team mates is alot of fun and a great way to relieve stress in a constructive manner. We like being challenged and challenging others. But all these changes have done is make people too scared to PvP. Everyone can agree our numbers have withered. And most of the suggestions that come up are about adding MORE punishment to the evil PvP'ers. Of course we don't want that and we see the system as flawed. It's a hard sell no matter what you offer.

I'm not trying to be a Negative Nelly when I say this. The issue has been allowed to fester for too long. The camps are too divided. HCS needs to step in and take control of their game.  Either remove PvP completely (pure pvp, not the ladder/gvg/arena safe stuff),  or revert PvP back to its origins and work from there with the idea of promoting Pvp not punishing it. Until that is done, anything else is just a temporary band-aid. Yes, this would piss people off. But it would end all this drama and let the game move forward in a positive manner.
 

[Bunnybee]

No gold or experience loss?! No. No. NO. This "let's try to make everybody happy" approach is admirable in some ways, don't get me wrong. But that's the direction the game has been trying to go in, and it never happened. Instead, you had NOBODY happy. Declining numbers, boredom, disinterest. You need the risk, you need the emotional investment, to make this game work. This path has already shown itself to be a mistake. Every single person is not ever going to be content and happy, if they were, they'd be bored and leave anyway! The games that work are the games with risk. Otherwise you may as well spend your time playing mahjong or something. And who would spend money on that?