75 replies to this topic

[Shadow19231]

what are your ideas on how it should be fixed?

 

Implementing a payback system that actually works. There needs to be a system where a PvPer can get as much retaliation back at them, in comparison to what they did. Like i said before, gold stolen is valid currency in any aspect of the game.. Why is self justification the only thing we have in return? You only invest MORE money and stamina/time to make yourself feel better about being stolen from. In no way is it actually retaliation because the PvPer couldn't give a crap.

It's like you can take 5, but the people are already manipulating their level so 5 means absolutely nothing..

 

See, the problem is the PvP community here at FS is so small any PvP changes have to be positive. They cannot inconvenience PvPers at all because it would hurt an already small community. However, that's no excuse to keep allowing this to happen to PvE players. I would like to see that if i wanted payback, i can actually hit a pvper where it hurts. The PvP equivalent to a PvE player being delevele'd 5 times.

[Shylark57]

LoL PvP is part of the Game.. Grow up take the chance and hit back..  

[Removed4427]

Implementing a payback system that actually works.

 

 

you've come to this forum suggesting a change is needed to the current system - i'm paraphrasing your initial post

 

what are your ideas for a new payback system? with this idea, maybe start a poll to see if your new system has any support with other players 

[Shadow19231]

you've come to this forum suggesting a change is needed to the current system - i'm paraphrasing your initial post

 

what are your ideas for a new payback system? with this idea, maybe start a poll to see if your new system has any support with other players 

 

I don't have an answer to that. I am just trying to stress the fact that there IS a problem. Then, people more knowledgeable than me can fix it. For me, the bottom line is it can't just be ignored and put into a "don't modify as if to bother the only remaining pvpers" pile. That to me is sinful

[Sinho6]

Here is the problem: you treat levelers and PvPers as two fundamentally different groups, and you discriminate. You believe levelers are playing the game the "correct" way and PvPers are "leechers" who are not afforded the same basic privileges as levelers. I suggest you correct your mindset immediately.

 

There is no "correct" way to play this game. Notice that FallenSword is, indeed, a game, which means that if you're having fun, you're doing something right. Whether you enjoy leveling up, PvPing, GvG, farming plants, farming fragments, merchanting, buffing, Arena, Titan hunting, SE hunting... if you're having fun, there is no reason why you should be accused of playing the game the "wrong" way. If PvP was a wrong way to play, HCS would have never added PvP to the game. Think for a second... the reason why content exists is because it is meant to be played! The reason why PvP exists is because people are meant to PvP and enjoy it!

 

Now that we've got that out of the way, the crux of your argument is that PvPers should suffer because they make levelers suffer. Retaliation. However, stop thinking about groups for a second, and just consider the individual.

 

The leveler spends stamina and he gains XP and gold.

The PvPer spends stamina and he gains gold and PvP Prestige. However, there is a chance that the PvPer will be bountied, resulting in a loss of levels and gold.

 

You see, there is already a fundamental disadvantage to PvP. Like I said earlier, there is no "correct" way to play the game, so if we accept leveling and PvP as equally valid playstyles, you'll see that the PvPer is already being punished for basically playing the game.

 

Do you want the system to enforce fairness? Then we conclude that the fairest system is to allow monsters to punish levelers. After all, both PvPers and levelers are trying to play the game, the difference is that PvPers are being punished for their playstyle. Shouldn't levelers have to suffer in some way - periodic loss of gold, XP, maybe levelers should randomly be incapacitated for a few hours, unable to spend stamina. Woah there, I bet that idea doesn't sound very good to you.

 

Now, I understand that you will argue that levelers are hurting nobody, while PvPers are hurting another group of players, so PvPers should indeed be punished for their playstyles. Perhaps that is correct, but your suggestion is that levelers can inflict equal retaliation to PvPers. That idea is utterly unfair to PvPers when you consider the costs/benefits.

 

Here is the current situation: PvPers spend stamina, lose XP, gain gold. Each player decides for himself/herself whether the trade-off of more gold for less XP is worth it... those who accept the trade-off become PvPers, those who do not become levelers or Titan hunters or whatever. The important part is that there is a trade-off - some players will naturally value gold more, and so there are PvPers. Of course PvPers are going to value levels less than a leveler... if a PvPer valued levels just as much as a leveler, the PvPer would have never chosen to PvP! You claim that it is somehow unfair that a PvPer will not care about the levels lost, but that's the way the system has to be.

 

On the other hand, let's say that a PvPer steals 1 million gold. Under your system, the leveler is able to retaliate equally, so the PvPer also suffers 1 million gold worth of damage in some way... maybe the PvPer loses enough XP so that the XP lost is valued at 1 million gold to the PvPer, or perhaps the PvPer loses stamina which the PvPer values at 1 million gold... In any case, you have designed a system so precise that the leveler can retaliate equally. Now, what does the PvPer stand to gain from PvPing? Absolutely nothing, there is no more trade-off... the PvPer spends stamina, gains gold, and loses exactly what he gained. With your suggestion, there will be no such thing as PvP... absolutely no one would PvP because there is literally nothing to gain.

 

Then here is my personal suggestion: if the PvPer must lose everything he gains, then the cost of retribution should be everything the leveler gains. In other words, if a PvPer steals 1 million gold, the leveler is allowed to automatically deduct 1 million gold from the PvPer's bank and holdings. In exchange, the leveler will no longer gain XP or gold from creatures. How does that sound to you?

[Shadow19231]

Here is the problem: you treat levelers and PvPers as two fundamentally different groups, and you discriminate. You believe levelers are playing the game the "correct" way and PvPers are "leechers" who are not afforded the same basic privileges as levelers. I suggest you correct your mindset immediately.

 

There is no "correct" way to play this game. Notice that FallenSword is, indeed, a game, which means that if you're having fun, you're doing something right. Whether you enjoy leveling up, PvPing, GvG, farming plants, farming fragments, merchanting, buffing, Arena, Titan hunting, SE hunting... if you're having fun, there is no reason why you should be accused of playing the game the "wrong" way. If PvP was a wrong way to play, HCS would have never added PvP to the game. Think for a second... the reason why content exists is because it is meant to be played! The reason why PvP exists is because people are meant to PvP and enjoy it!

 

Now that we've got that out of the way, the crux of your argument is that PvPers should suffer because they make levelers suffer. Retaliation. However, stop thinking about groups for a second, and just consider the individual.

 

The leveler spends stamina and he gains XP and gold.

The PvPer spends stamina and he gains gold and PvP Prestige. However, there is a chance that the PvPer will be bountied, resulting in a loss of levels and gold.

 

You see, there is already a fundamental disadvantage to PvP. Like I said earlier, there is no "correct" way to play the game, so if we accept leveling and PvP as equally valid playstyles, you'll see that the PvPer is already being punished for basically playing the game.

 

Do you want the system to enforce fairness? Then we conclude that the fairest system is to allow monsters to punish levelers. After all, both PvPers and levelers are trying to play the game, the difference is that PvPers are being punished for their playstyle. Shouldn't levelers have to suffer in some way - periodic loss of gold, XP, maybe levelers should randomly be incapacitated for a few hours, unable to spend stamina. Woah there, I bet that idea doesn't sound very good to you.

 

Now, I understand that you will argue that levelers are hurting nobody, while PvPers are hurting another group of players, so PvPers should indeed be punished for their playstyles. Perhaps that is correct, but your suggestion is that levelers can inflict equal retaliation to PvPers. That idea is utterly unfair to PvPers when you consider the costs/benefits.

 

Here is the current situation: PvPers spend stamina, lose XP, gain gold. Each player decides for himself/herself whether the trade-off of more gold for less XP is worth it... those who accept the trade-off become PvPers, those who do not become levelers or Titan hunters or whatever. The important part is that there is a trade-off - some players will naturally value gold more, and so there are PvPers. Of course PvPers are going to value levels less than a leveler... if a PvPer valued levels just as much as a leveler, the PvPer would have never chosen to PvP! You claim that it is somehow unfair that a PvPer will not care about the levels lost, but that's the way the system has to be.

 

On the other hand, let's say that a PvPer steals 1 million gold. Under your system, the leveler is able to retaliate equally, so the PvPer also suffers 1 million gold worth of damage in some way... maybe the PvPer loses enough XP so that the XP lost is valued at 1 million gold to the PvPer, or perhaps the PvPer loses stamina which the PvPer values at 1 million gold... In any case, you have designed a system so precise that the leveler can retaliate equally. Now, what does the PvPer stand to gain from PvPing? Absolutely nothing, there is no more trade-off... the PvPer spends stamina, gains gold, and loses exactly what he gained. With your suggestion, there will be no such thing as PvP... absolutely no one would PvP because there is literally nothing to gain.

 

Then here is my personal suggestion: if the PvPer must lose everything he gains, then the cost of retribution should be everything the leveler gains. In other words, if a PvPer steals 1 million gold, the leveler is allowed to automatically deduct 1 million gold from the PvPer's bank and holdings. In exchange, the leveler will no longer gain XP or gold from creatures. How does that sound to you?

 

I appreciate you taking the time to write to me. Please, don't ever misunderstand that. With that said, I'll share my input. I think you're making out my claims more than they are. I am not saying that PvE players are better. What i am saying is that this game is a PvE based game. The overall true objective is to kill monsters, and level. That's just how this company designed it. If it was any other way, there would be progression in any other aspect. However, right now, the only thing truly supported is hunting because they bring out never ending content.

 

To talk about PvPers and losing levels, I'll try to talk as factual as i can, as to not leave any misconceptions about where i am coming from. When I calculate the notion that PvPers do not care about levels, it's solely based on the idea that levels mean nothing more to them, than the bracket they play in, and the gear they use. I'll admit, it's a high generalization i am making here, but my statements come from those two things.

 

You are misunderstanding what i mean when i say equal retaliation. The difference between what I'm saying, and what you're thinking I'm saying is, you think i meant an eye for an eye. Not at all. What i am talking about is what I'll try to show you as an example

 

Player A. is a leveler. Player B. Is a PvPer.

 

Player B attacks Player A, and Player A wants revenge. So, without involving bounty board or threats of deleving, he attacks back. Now, it's player B's turn to go. What player B now has is an additional way to attack ; Deleveling. Player B delevels player A and knows he's won. In return, if it was possible, say player A counter-delevels B.

 

It's no longer on an equal playing filed. Based on my claims from above, a delevel to a leveler is much more potent than to a pvper. So much potent that the PvPer had anticipated he would get deleveled, that he made sure that his character was setup to take no impact from that said delevel. This is where my request comes in. Instead of deleveling them, hit them where it actually hurts. I do not want an eye for an eye. What i want is the equivalency of a leveler getting deleveled to a pvper.

 

 

I also want to make it clear to everyone just saying "attack back" : Me deleleving someone is no more than self justification on how i view the stolen gold. I keep saying it's as if you should get your money's worth, because it's gone. However, the retaliation you guys recommend will not be suffice in anything other than that of self justification. No harm done to the attacker, no real retaliation done

Edited by Shadow19231, 02 January 2014 - 04:56.

[Sinho6]

I believe you misunderstand my point.

 

PvP should not be treated as an isolated attack. Instead, the PvPer deliberately chooses PvP over leveling, which means there is an opportunity cost.

 

No harm done to the attacker? Let's see... the attacker chose not to hunt, which is a loss of XP and gold. The attacker also faces levels lost through bounties. You act like levels lost don't matter because the PvP sets himself up to be 5 levels higher than where he needs to be, but you overlook the fact that eventually, the PvPer will have to gain those levels back. So let's say the PvPer is 45 levels above his band and each hit means 5-level delevel. That means the PvPer can only hit 9 times, and then he has to gain all those levels back.

 

For a leveler, the levels lost are immediate. For a PvPer, sure he may prepare himself for a loss today, but he loses tomorrow when he has to regain his levels to stay within his band.

 

There are far more levelers than PvPers in this game. Why is that? That's because PvP already has far more costs than benefits, there is no need for the leveler to add on even more.

[Shadow19231]

I believe you misunderstand my point.

 

PvP should not be treated as an isolated attack. Instead, the PvPer deliberately chooses PvP over leveling, which means there is an opportunity cost.

 

No harm done to the attacker? Let's see... the attacker chose not to hunt, which is a loss of XP and gold. The attacker also faces levels lost through bounties. You act like levels lost don't matter because the PvP sets himself up to be 5 levels higher than where he needs to be, but you overlook the fact that eventually, the PvPer will have to gain those levels back. So let's say the PvPer is 45 levels above his band and each hit means 5-level delevel. That means the PvPer can only hit 9 times, and then he has to gain all those levels back.

 

For a leveler, the levels lost are immediate. For a PvPer, sure he may prepare himself for a loss today, but he loses tomorrow when he has to regain his levels to stay within his band.

 

There are far more levelers than PvPers in this game. Why is that? That's because PvP already has far more costs than benefits, there is no need for the leveler to add on even more.

 

People don't PvP because it's not really supported. Yeah, they have open world pvp. Yeah, they have a bounty board and ladders. However, it has no progression. That's why people don't PvP. I am not disputing a PvPers spot in the game. Nor am i trying to get rid of them. All i want to do is have a way to retaliate against an attack, that actually makes sense. Take that one guy as an example. He was 50 levels higher than his max level. He needs 10 delevel sessions  to get kicked out of a bracket / need to recharge. You think that's a problem? He's accepted the fact he'll eventually need to relevel. The problem is he doesn't care because by the time he'll need to relevel, he's had his fun for those 50 levels. You're dancing around the issue, but not directly confronting it. Deleveling a PvPer is as idiotic as hunting with counter-attack

Edited by Shadow19231, 02 January 2014 - 05:12.

[Sinho6]

The fact that a PvPer has fun for 50 levels is negated by the fact that he will have to do an activity which he does not enjoy for 50 levels in order to gain it all back. Losing 50 levels is a lot easier and faster than gaining back 50 levels.

 

How about you? Sure, you lose gold, but you don't lose the ability to level.

[yotekiller]

People don't PvP because it's not really supported. Yeah, they have open world pvp. Yeah, they have a bounty board and ladders. However, it has no progression. That's why people don't PvP. I am not disputing a PvPers spot in the game. Nor am i trying to get rid of them. All i want to do is have a way to retaliate against an attack, that actually makes sense. Take that one guy as an example. He was 50 levels higher than his max level. He needs 10 delevel sessions  to get kicked out of a bracket / need to recharge. You think that's a problem? He's accepted the fact he'll eventually need to relevel. The problem is he doesn't care because by the time he'll need to relevel, he's had his fun for those 50 levels. You're dancing around the issue, but not directly confronting it. Deleveling a PvPer is as idiotic as hunting with counter-attack

 

Reading through your posts I'd say you are absolutely trying to eliminate pvp from the game so that everybody will be forced to play the game your way, the only "real" way.  Since you're doing a lot of name-calling and making personal attacks, I've got some questions for you.  If your way is the only real way to play the game, why aren't you a much higher level?  You joined a month before I did but you are over 800 levels behind me.  I like all aspects of the game, including pvp, so I've burned a lot of stam on things besides leveling.  Shouldn't you be way ahead of me on levels since you only play the "real" way?  Furthermore, who truly has a better grasp of the "real" way to play the game, the guy with 4 medals or the guy with 16 medals?  Why don't you try a few more aspects of the game and become a more well-rounded player before you insult others because they play the game differently than you do.  There are a lot of different ways to play this game which is what keeps it interesting and pvp is just one of those ways but it's also a very necessary part of the game.

[Sinho6]

I would like to add that the lack of progression argument is pretty invalid... leveling is truly the only aspect of the game that actually needs progression (and thus new content). If HCS stops releasing content for a year, what will happen to all the levelers at the top? They will literally be unable to do anything except delevel and relevel.

 

On the other hand, when is the last time HCS updated PvP? Probably more than a year ago, yet PvP is still going.

1. PvP relies on other players, and players don't run out. Also, players are not as predictable as monsters... they change gear, have better stats, have buffs, and carry different amounts of gold. PvP doesn't really need new content because PvP is already perpetually changing content.

2. Whenever new content is released, it's not leveler-only. After all, new levels free up new PvP bands, give rise to new equipment which a PvPer can use just as well as levelers can, and give levelers content to hunt (in other words, fills up the levelers' pockets, giving the PvPer more targets).

 

Is there progression in PvP? Some PvPers accumulate ridiculous amounts of PvP Prestige, does that not count as progression? Some players rack up PvP Tokens from the Ladder, others rack up RP until they can buy items. There is the PvP Smasher Medal, PvP Dominace, and Bounty Hunter Medals. Accumulating gold itself is a form of progression, because you can slowly upgrade your character through PvP. Just because there's no "PvP XP bar" and no "PvP level" doesn't mean there is no progression in PvP.

 

Also, your argument that a lack of progression results in less PvP is fundamentally wrong. Is there any more progression in Titan hunting, SE killing, plant farming, LE events, fragment farming, GvG, scavenging? Not really but people still do those activities.

 

By the way, here is some information about myself. I am, predominantly, a leveler. I have been hit many times, losing lots of gold in the process. I have never PvPed anyone for gold. I still defend PvP, not because I enjoy that aspect of the game, but because your arguments are rather silly. Did you know creatures can kill you and you will lose XP if you die? You can prevent that by wearing proper equipment and researching creature stats. Did you know PvPers can steal your gold? How shocking, you can also prevent that by not carrying too much gold in the first place.

 

You know what will happen if you carry too much gold, everyone knows what will happen. Those who don't know will soon find out, it's not some big secret. It's as if you live in the Arctic and you don't bring any parkas... is there any excuse for not being prepared for the consequences?

[MSCruz]

Maybe a good solution should be allowing PvP only for those who enjoy it. No need to retaliate, no need to bounty (as people say this system is almost dead). For me, stealing in a virtual environment is the same as stealing in the real world (the concept). The same about paying someone to do your dirty work. Off course this is my way of thinking and I agree that if the game allows this, then it is not wrong at all.

 

If the game allows the same conduct as a real life, than it should give people better ways to protect them against the "bad guys".

[Mzzery]

Oh my, nice topic

 

I've not read all the comments, but I'll post anyway.

 

PvP is one of the most challenging and rewarding (no, I don't mean financially) things in the game. If you pvp, you get to know people you wouldn't have otherwise. I have a few friends, as you can see on my profile page. About half of them, if not more, are people I've gotten to know through pvp. 

 

I understand the not wanting to be hit-part, I really do. I've been co-founder of FFS before (as most probably know, they're #1 of the levelling guilds), and I never hit anyone before I was lvl 950, which happened to be end of content back then (summer 2010). 

 

Once I started bounty hunting, I was addicted, like.... seriously addicted. It took me just over 6 months to get my bounty hunter crystal. Soon after that, pvp changed, and the bounty board more or less died. The day I got my crystal, I did 86 bounties. 86 bounties in one day won't happen anymore, since there never are 15 pages full of bounties lately.

 

Enough ranting... heheh... ok, down to the math:

 

If you use 1000 stamina to gain one level, it's the same as 40 FSP. The higher level you are, the more stamina it'll take to gain a level, provided you use the same potions and buffs etc, but let's keep things simple. 1 FSP costs 185,000 gold right now in the marketplace. That means 1 level would cost 7,400,000 gold. 5 levels are therefore worth (if you use 1k stam/level) 37 million gold.

 

Now, on the bounty board, you ALWAYS lose twice as much xp as you do in a hit with the same amount of stamina off the board. A 10 stam clear on the BB thusly takes as much xp as 2 100stam attacks off the board. A 100stam clear takes as much as 20 100stam hits would off the board.

 

Losing 5 levels on a bounty, it's not always a lot of fun. The fun part is to fight back, to switch gear, to just enjoy the interaction, because that too is interaction in a way. I won't lie and say I get upset if I lose a few levels. It doesn't bother me at all, as long as I deserved it. Losing 5 is a calculated risk, but you can't say that it's worth it and not a high risk. I usually use around 2k stam/level when I level, and that would equal 74 million gold worth of stamina. I don't ever see anyone in my range with that much, or more, gold... so yeah, not a smart investment if I was only after making gold

[Mzzery]

 

 

Player A. is a leveler. Player B. Is a PvPer.

 

Player B attacks Player A, and Player A wants revenge. So, without involving bounty board or threats of deleving, he attacks back. Now, it's player B's turn to go. What player B now has is an additional way to attack ; Deleveling. Player B delevels player A and knows he's won. In return, if it was possible, say player A counter-delevels B.

 

 

 

If player B would bounty player A for retaliating, then player B is likely NOT a pvper, but someone who dabbles with pvp. The only time a pvper would do something like that, is if player A was someone he/she "had beef with", for prior things, usually only happens if player A has a real bad mouth.  It's important to point this out I believe, because when that happens for no good reason, it gives pvpers a bad name, while in reality player B didn't know how pvp works (unless there was a very good reason, like I said).

Edited by Mzzery, 02 January 2014 - 16:22.

[Shylark57]

I don't have an answer to that. I am just trying to stress the fact that there IS a problem. Then, people more knowledgeable than me can fix it. For me, the bottom line is it can't just be ignored and put into a "don't modify as if to bother the only remaining pvpers" pile. That to me is sinful

The PvP system doesn't need Changed..

There are 3 VERY Clear choices to being hit..

1) Grow  up some and hit back...

2) Put the attacker on the Board...

3) Forget it and move on...

[Hoofmaster]

Locked at the request of the original poster.