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Victimize the Levelers: thieves and bullies rule!


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#921 RebornJedi

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:23

Having a non- bountyable attack off the board would only increase the buying and trading of rating....


Exactly how? Would you try to buy/trade something that others can take from you?

The main issue with the current PvP ladder is that the rating is kept by deterrence. Nobody will go after your high PvP rating when they know that they will lose both XP and the rating itself.

and also at EOC players could simply pay someone to farm rating on the board and then buy it off them...theres no one really to hit them back if they dont bounty hunt ;)


There's EVERYBODY at EOC to hit them back :). If there's no deterrence, in any level range the person with the highest rating would be the one that wins the most or loses the least.

theres 6 players under the number one player and over 30 within the 950-955 range..plenty of players to partake in some pvp ;) with the possibility of taking 40 or 75(gloat) with each attack the only thing that will keep you on the top will be to constantly defend and attack..dominating the field ;)

Part of the proposal is of course to change the "rating" from ELO type to a simple win/loss ratio, possibly two separate ratings for attacks and defenses - so the total effort would matter, not just picking a target with high rating to leech off.

a win/loss ratio can easily be abused..i don't care much for this type of system. i believe the current system will work fine. attacking those around you and bounty hunting will be the only way to stay on top..

 


#922 fs_coyotik

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:31

a win/loss ratio can easily be abused..i don't care much for this type of system. i believe the current system will work fine. attacking those around you and bounty hunting will be the only way to stay on top..


And what system cannot be easily abused? Bounties can be bought, hits can be traded. So, the system should be built in a way that you really cannot "keep" what you buy, you have to earn it by defending it. Unfortunately that is not very easy with the current, attacker-favoring combat system - unless you're kept fully buffed by guildies, and even then, if you'll go online, an equally buffed attacker should still have very high odds of success.

That's why my other suggestion is to make life a bit harder for the attacker. I mean, make it harder to win instead of making it risky in consequences. The PvP challenge should be more in actually beating the opponent than in getting away with it.

#923 fs_mystraven

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:32

The things that should be done is to significantly raise the rewards and prestige for attacking other pvp'ers, so that attacks on the levelers would be wasting stamina and time.


Very pertinent idea - nice! This approach would (or should) satisfy both sides in this: the levellers would be interfered with somewhat less, while the PvPers would have a better test of their chosen skills, and better rewards for tough opponents vanquished. The first half of this would also develop organically - rather than some artificial, forced "immunity", the level of muggings would tend to auto-regulate: if you happen to spot someone (be it leveller, apothecary, merchant, whatever) wandering around with a fat pouch, you'd by all means take a swing; but for the most part, I imagine the more competitive PvP enthusiasts would be seeking prospects for glory in combat - as it should be.

Of course, while the concept is excellent, finding a way to implement it might be trickier... Maybe enhance the value of taking on players with high rating/prestige, and devalue victories against those without. For instance, PvP Prestige could be earned only from players with same (or maybe slightly lower) PvP rating or higher, but be awarded in higher amounts for "attacking upwards". I don't know, that's just a thought, but I think it might encourage honorable PvP (and I'm sure something like this must have already been suggested somewhere - it's too obvious not to.)

#924 fs_mystraven

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:36

I can only repeat that my proposal for rating-only attacks isn't aimed at "stealing" any pride/prestige from real pvpers, it's simply aimed at drawing more people to some form of PvP - people who are not interested in it because their XP has a high priority for them.


I think that, furthermore, having this "softer" option that you suggest could act as training wheels of a sort - I think many who participate would develop a taste for PvP, and want more, thus "graduating" to the big leagues - and in this way even the so-called "hardcore" PvP would benefit.

#925 RebornJedi

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 21:51

And what system cannot be easily abused? Bounties can be bought, hits can be traded. So, the system should be built in a way that you really cannot "keep" what you buy, you have to earn it by defending it. Unfortunately that is not very easy with the current, attacker-favoring combat system - unless you're kept fully buffed by guildies, and even then, if you'll go online, an equally buffed attacker should still have very high odds of success

You can't keep the pvp rating you buy if you can't defend well. you sure as hell can buy hits against players with a better ratio then you..a win ratio will only tell you how many targets you have in range, not how good you are at defending your rating against other pvpers..its not impossible to defend successfully, especially when you know you will be hit often because you have a high pvp rating. just look at defense in GvG..Extended Buffs like Deflect, Honor, FS, Last Ditch, Dark Curse, Reflection, and Reckoning will be HUGE part of your role in defense..grab a bunch of others so spell breaker has a lower chance of taking the key skills away and wear nothing but Attack/Damage..so if they miss, you will most likely win..to stop them from surviving long after you get your swing get buffs like Stun, Shockwave, Ignite, Poison, Bloodthirst, Wither, SA, and why not Erosion for poops and giggles

think about the extra demand in the buff market :)

its hard to give suggestions or throw out ideas when HCS is already in progress of revamping the PvP ladder..guess we will have to wait and see

 


#926 Bleltch

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 22:22

make pvp rating only gained and lost through the bb that way players MUST do bountys for it and take a risk

My suggestion has been to do away with pvp points on the bb all together. Most bounty clears have very little risk of counter bounty, and pvp should always have risk.

#927 Khanate

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 22:26

*sits back and laughs about the prospects of HCS's PvP fix being awarding things to the players with the most pvp rating*

Sorry, I don't hold my breath for anything decent at this moment.

#928 Spitfire666123

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:31

GvG is between two guilds using a 25+/- attack range...i hate that suggestion LOL im looking for some pvp tag from someone 5 levels around me, where i know im going to get hit back..not one of my guildmates..

Make a second GvG option. One player vs. another in two different guilds. Two 'Heroes' if you will. Normal GvGs are nothing more then PvP lite anyway. Very rarely is it two players online battling it out blow for blow. On the opposite, it's all about hitting the weakest offline, unbuffed player(s). So instead make it a limited time to attack x times. The other player has the same opportunity to respond. Make it +/- 5 levels. It's what you guys want! No bountys, no xp loss, no gold changes hands. Just add a point ladder. Shoot, make the attacks bountyable if you want or let gold change hands. I don't care. This is much more what everyone against the current system wants. Start building a system up by adding what you want instead of tearing down an existing one because a few fear it.


i must be crazy then... because in the last 2 GvGs i did, i was hitting online players xD ... (i had a perf score at 36/50, but then i couldnt log in to finish)... *shrugs* i love the challenge of beating an online person :D

#929 avvakum

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:39

If there's no deterrence, in any level range the person with the highest rating would be the one that wins the most or loses the least.


in theory a person with most stamina&interest wins, on practice, another "agreements between players/guilds are within the rules" crap similar to relics agreement between several top guilds.. so far only top leveling guilds went into war over useless PvP points, the irony is that the levelers want to have a PvP medal and dislike PvP at the same time. This is ultimately wrong, I would change it so that people disliking PvP didn't want to have that medal ever.

#930 sweetlou

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 03:39

*sits back and laughs about the prospects of HCS's PvP fix being awarding things to the players with the most pvp rating*

Sorry, I don't hold my breath for anything decent at this moment.

I'm always optimistic. Can't say much besides what I'd like to see. I have faith in Hoof, however this is probably one of his more challenging tweaks that has been needed for a very long time. I'm hoping they have put some hard work into brainstorming and came up with some good changes other then simply a reset every week. A top 10 change to the medal instead of simply #1 would alleviate some of the pressure to make a system near perfect. Almost every single player that has it already has traded points to get it anyway so there shouldn't be much argument.

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#931 RebornJedi

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 05:27

i must be crazy then... because in the last 2 GvGs i did, i was hitting online players xD ... (i had a perf score at 36/50, but then i couldnt log in to finish)... *shrugs* i love the challenge of beating an online person :D

sure they weren't on autoreload? ;) :lol:

 


#932 Spitfire666123

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 06:56

i must be crazy then... because in the last 2 GvGs i did, i was hitting online players xD ... (i had a perf score at 36/50, but then i couldnt log in to finish)... *shrugs* i love the challenge of beating an online person :D

sure they weren't on autoreload? ;) :lol:


one was hunting, and the other was messaging me :P

i wouldve hit KT as well... if i had 2 more levels xD

#933 KitiaraLi

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 08:29

Exactly how? Would you try to buy/trade something that others can take from you?


The same way the traders have been doing it so far?


The main issue with the current PvP ladder is that the rating is kept by deterrence. Nobody will go after your high PvP rating when they know that they will lose both XP and the rating itself.



Oh, but I can name a few (including myself) who did just that, and scattered the ladder for a weeks time .. and it's still not totally recovered... hitting rating traders is fun, no matter the cost!


There's EVERYBODY at EOC to hit them back :). If there's no deterrence, in any level range the person with the highest rating would be the one that wins the most or loses the least.

Part of the proposal is of course to change the "rating" from ELO type to a simple win/loss ratio, possibly two separate ratings for attacks and defenses - so the total effort would matter, not just picking a target with high rating to leech off.


Trust me on this one, EOC players tend to get very grumpy if you take anything away from 'em, and it would most likely result in alotta personal drama .. but then again, that would be fun to watch.. might even get the possibility to sneak in a few clears if someone got boarded :twisted:

I do agree with Luis though, you're crusading to remove the risk from PvP, saying it will only entice more ppl to do it.. which I cannot know if true or not, but it will kill of a part of the game, that the CURRENT PvPers love, hence breaking the game for 'em.
So, a new system will be needed for the above suggestions.. even if the jedi gets his will in the end, and it one day becomes possible to hit ppl for rating and whatnot, without the possibility to be boarded. I would in such case, find a way to get back at ya... there is always a way for the blood thirsty ones to get their spill! That is not meant as a threat, simply saying, that nomatter what you try to get implemented, it will not make you safe from XP loss. For this, you will need HCS to change a core rule in game, which would kill of a part of their customer base (PvPers)..so unlikely to happen.

No one can deny that we changed this game and influenced it in such a way that NO ONE could compete with us.. so much so that they changed the rules. ~Abhorrence, chosen founder of Cerulean Sins


#934 sweetlou

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 09:31

I can only repeat that my proposal for rating-only attacks isn't aimed at "stealing" any pride/prestige from real pvpers, it's simply aimed at drawing more people to some form of PvP - people who are not interested in it because their XP has a high priority for them.


I think that, furthermore, having this "softer" option that you suggest could act as training wheels of a sort - I think many who participate would develop a taste for PvP, and want more, thus "graduating" to the big leagues - and in this way even the so-called "hardcore" PvP would benefit.

This already exists! It's called GvG...

You can PvP any player within +/- 25 levels. Absolutely anyone who has been logged in within the last 7 daysan be a target. It costs 1 dot and 50k gold to initiate a conflict. You even get a reward if you win, 10 RPs. The only thing the player you're hitting loses is durability. If you want to be real nice buff your target with UB to minimize repair costs. It even gives you a rating, albeit a guild rating, but a rating nonetheless.

Want a personal rating? Ask the devs to make one. This sounds like a no-brainer to your proposal!

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#935 fs_coyotik

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 12:49


Exactly how? Would you try to buy/trade something that others can take from you?

The same way the traders have been doing it so far?


You missing the point here. If I can hit you and take PvP rating from you and the ONLY thing you can do is hit me back and take the rating back, it would be quite pointless to "buy" it. That is, you would have to buy "peace" with everyone in your range, which would be very expensive bordering on impossible.


The main issue with the current PvP ladder is that the rating is kept by deterrence. Nobody will go after your high PvP rating when they know that they will lose both XP and the rating itself.



Oh, but I can name a few (including myself) who did just that, and scattered the ladder for a weeks time .. and it's still not totally recovered... hitting rating traders is fun, no matter the cost!


Yea, occasionally it happens that somebody who doesn't really care about levels will rock the boat, but I think that in the past year, vast majority of days, the top person on the ladder was there without any effort other than having traded the way up.

Trust me on this one, EOC players tend to get very grumpy if you take anything away from 'em, and it would most likely result in alotta personal drama .. but then again, that would be fun to watch.. might even get the possibility to sneak in a few clears if someone got boarded :twisted:


Personal drama? Hmm, well, perhaps some nutter would pay to get somebody 100-stammed repeatedly - but people at EOC have nothing to do with stam anyway...

I do agree with Luis though, you're crusading to remove the risk from PvP,


I want the thieving PvP to remain the same when it comes to risks. I'm just asking for more options. PvP is "player versus player" in general - there's no grounds for claiming that "PvP MUST be risky".

but it will kill of a part of the game, that the CURRENT PvPers love, hence breaking the game for 'em.


How exactly will it kill a part of the game? It will NOT touch the current PvPers in any way.

That is not meant as a threat, simply saying, that nomatter what you try to get implemented, it will not make you safe from XP loss. For this, you will need HCS to change a core rule in game, which would kill of a part of their customer base (PvPers)..so unlikely to happen.


I personally don't really care. I will probably not partake even in the friendly PvP. I'm not taking part in this discussion for personal reasons or motives, I do it just because I am convinced that it would be good for the game.

BTW, I wonder how big a part of their customer base (meaning paying customers) are PvPers and how many of them would quit (and cause financial loss to HCS).

#936 sweetlou

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 13:19

I personally don't really care. I will probably not partake even in the friendly PvP. I'm not taking part in this discussion for personal reasons or motives, I do it just because I am convinced that it would be good for the game.

BTW, I wonder how big a part of their customer base (meaning paying customers) are PvPers and how many of them would quit (and cause financial loss to HCS).

Good, I'm sure you wouldn't. I also wonder what the 'customer' base is myself? I know for a FACT, imo the game would be very dull(not viable) without these types of arguments and without PvP as it is. Done.

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“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” -GRRM


#937 KitiaraLi

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 13:46

You missing the point here. If I can hit you and take PvP rating from you and the ONLY thing you can do is hit me back and take the rating back, it would be quite pointless to "buy" it. That is, you would have to buy "peace" with everyone in your range, which would be very expensive bordering on impossible.


You have no idea what's going on at EOC do ya? Try going up therte, and the go for no. 1 spot.. try to take the no.1 spot on the PvP ladder.. just try it and you'll find out what's really going on.. gawd the stuff I had to endure when I took the no.1 spot... so many ppl getting oh so pee'd because they had an entire system setup as to who was gonna get the medal in which order...

The main issue with the current PvP ladder is that the rating is kept by deterrence. Nobody will go after your high PvP rating when they know that they will lose both XP and the rating itself.



And you don't think you would get smacked if you took someones PvP rating? Ofcourse not all would care at all, and would most likely hit back right away, but there are always the few rotten apples, who get's oh so annoyed when you mess with their schemes and plans.

Yea, occasionally it happens that somebody who doesn't really care about levels will rock the boat, but I think that in the past year, vast majority of days, the top person on the ladder was there without any effort other than having traded the way up.


ah.. didn't you start of by saying it nvr happened...nvm then.

Personal drama? Hmm, well, perhaps some nutter would pay to get somebody 100-stammed repeatedly - but people at EOC have nothing to do with stam anyway...


Ask EOC players how many of 'em would partake in PvP, unless they could earn FSP on doing so...

I want the thieving PvP to remain the same when it comes to risks. I'm just asking for more options. PvP is "player versus player" in general - there's no grounds for claiming that "PvP MUST be risky".


So basically you would just like to be able to say hi to someone.. ever tried sending someone a msg? That would get you in contact with someone, and without a risk.
PvP in FS comes with risk, and it would become very dull if the game was without it all of a sudden.

How exactly will it kill a part of the game? It will NOT touch the current PvPers in any way.


Go back to page 1, and read the thread.. it's kinda been said many times. You're starting to come of as someone else roaming these kinda threads, only reading what you write yourself.

I personally don't really care. I will probably not partake even in the friendly PvP. I'm not taking part in this discussion for personal reasons or motives, I do it just because I am convinced that it would be good for the game.


And what makes you so sure of that? Did yuou ever go on a PvP binge, really getting deep inside it? If not, you dont know it, and hardly quallify as someone who's capable of saying how it should be.

BTW, I wonder how big a part of their customer base (meaning paying customers) are PvPers and how many of them would quit (and cause financial loss to HCS).


So.. you're pointing at the levelers are outnumbering the PvPers, and as such the PvPers point of view is invalid? Nice.. there have been a few others doing so through the history of the world, luckily they were all dealt with.

This is just ending up like every other PvP thread ever had here... levelers come in, puts something over their eyes and ears, and just go with what they want, claiming it to be for the good of all, without having the slightest idea of which they speak, and without showing enough respect for those involved, to actually bother trying to understand.

/Kit out. Lock the thread for all that I care, it's useless anyways.

No one can deny that we changed this game and influenced it in such a way that NO ONE could compete with us.. so much so that they changed the rules. ~Abhorrence, chosen founder of Cerulean Sins


#938 avvakum

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 13:52

BTW, I wonder how big a part of their customer base (meaning paying customers) are PvPers and how many of them would quit (and cause financial loss to HCS).


the customer base has been built up on these rules, and PvP scheme was like this forever, I don't play Sigmastorm2 because I don't like it, want downgrade FS to Sigmastorm2 level? I will definitely leave the game, it's easy to compare my donations to FS and Sigmastorm2.. Somebody here mentioned that many last updates have been focused on making life easier for pvp'ers, and now look at this stat... :wink:

Posted Image

#939 asterxemil

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 13:53

Honestly i could care less about PvP Rating, take that as you please... but no touchy my shinies or my hardworked XPs >:/

#940 Khanate

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 13:55


BTW, I wonder how big a part of their customer base (meaning paying customers) are PvPers and how many of them would quit (and cause financial loss to HCS).


the customer base has been built up on these rules, and PvP scheme was like this forever, I don't play Sigmastorm2 because I don't like it, want downgrade FS to Sigmastorm2 level? I will definitely leave the game, it's easy to compare my donations to FS and Sigmastorm2.. Somebody here mentioned that many last updates have been focused on making life easier for pvp'ers, and now look at this stat... :wink:

Posted Image


Since then many small updates have taken place for many features of the game, your link of causality is VERY weak.


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