179 replies to this topic

[Egami]

I think the issue is that due to the stat bonus from the forge levels being a fixed amount rather than a percentage it just doesn't seem so worth it at higher levels.

Fully agree on that. I haven't forged in ages over 4FF because of what I consider, personally, to be exorbitant costs for little gain. And I've also felt that even 4 was going too far, lol.

 

However, we both know that there are players in game that want the "best" available.

 

For me... well... I've only seen a couple posts to this end... But the fact is that if a level XXXX item doesn't "need to be" forged currently, what incentive would a reduced cost give?

 

Smart guilds with intelligent leaders, unlike myself, would have zero incentive to forge even at these reduced costs since the stats are already enough to get the job done.

 

Grant it, this may be just a pure-hunting position and "might" be changed for other game aspects (heck, I like some stat increases on Titans I don't (not can't) one-hit.

 

My point is... from a global FS standpoint... I'm just wondering if the 2.3 million or whatever gold reduction in forging costs is positive for the game considering the gold sink effect. That is to say, if it doesn't severely increase forging... then all it is doing is decreasing an already present gold-sink.

 

Am I babbling incoherently yet? lol. Sorry )o0... I really hope the message gets across.I

 

In short, I will continue to forge up to 4FF and won't bother with 5FF and I will do this at a reduced cost to current prices.

 

If and only if, the FS community as a whole sees a viable benefit to forging more than what they are currently doing will this have a positive game effect.

 

On another note I care absolutely nothing about... this should theoretically reduce the cost of all currently forged items in the AH, lmao.

If the gold was capped at level 1,000 I'd certainly be more inclined to consider forging up items.

I used to be ferocious in making all my stuff perf/FF. I abandoned the FF thing quite some time ago when it got prohibitively expensive.

That is exactly what I was asking in the above "way too long response", lol.

 

To go a bit further, is the renewed interest sustainable?

 

I think Shar's comment is relevant and that "I'd certainly be more inclined" should be "highlighted".

 

Again, "more inclined"... for me that's the crux.

 

I myself am an idiot. I shared Shar's opinion that 5 FFs was way out of my range. I still did and do 4, idiot that I am (or so I think).

 

We can assume that I will continue to stupidly 4 FF items. In this case, unless there is enough increased forging to cover the gold sink lost on my reduced costs, this actually "hurts" the game because of gold sink.

 

In other words, unless Shar, over a sustainable period, becomes convinced that forging is worthwhile for the added benefits and that decision surpasses what I, Egami, save on my forging costs then I think the reduction is detrimental to the game.

[Hoofmaster]

My point is... from a global FS standpoint... I'm just wondering if the 2.3 million or whatever gold reduction in forging costs is positive for the game considering the gold sink effect. That is to say, if it doesn't severely increase forging... then all it is doing is decreasing an already present gold-sink.

 

I think if it is seen as more beneficial and the gold cost is reasonable then more people will use it and hence will become a larger gold sink overall

[yotwehc]

What I'd really like to see are opinions from players on what it would take for them to forge again. Does this convince them?

If you can convince me to forge, then I imagine 90% of the community would feel inclined to as I am a tightwad and poor *hides bank*.

At the proposed rates, I may do 1 or possibly 2 but no more. I would recommend not dropping it down to the point where I would do full forge however... because that is way too low... lol. Even my hunting gear is not forged since there is not enough bang for the buck and the crystals gonna wear out anyway.

 

Just my 2 cents since I'm in the extreme opposite camp from you wrt forging.

[Kedyn]

Thanks for clarifying Hoof, and while I agree with Doom that 10% might be too much, 5% each stat probably won't get me to start forging again either if it's going to cost an average of 35 FSP per forge (using 185k market). Maybe at 7.5% each stat or 15% bonus to the entire item (split among stats) might make me want to forge again. If 7.5% was the upgrade, I would suggest something like 1.25%, 2.5%, 3.75%, 5% and 7.5% (make it worth getting that last upgrade, otherwise people may s top at 4).

 

I also agree Egami that Hell Forge should still keep this a gold sink, and even at 5 Million to  upgrade fully, I think that would be a good gold sink. I have been upgrading my gear recently but that's only been because of GVG for the small little bit of extra stats. It'll be nice ot see what they are after the update.

[Leos3000]

 

True - alternatively we could keep it as it is, but split the percentage across the stats instead - so an item that has two stats with a level 5 forge would get either 25 or 5% added to each of the stats - that's probably more sensible (not sure if my brain was engaged before )

In this alternative this just means a 5% increase to stats if u separate it out and do 5% each. I would definitly be more inclined to forge with the 10% total boost that you started with

 

 

If we capped it at the cost of a level 1,000 item it would work out at:

 

Upgrade 1) 150,000

Upgrade 2) 300,000

Upgrade 3) 600,000

Upgrade 4) 1,200,000

Upgrade 5) 2,400,000

 

That would make the maximum cost 4,650,000 + 10 Fallen Sword Points.

 

 

While this is getting better I still equate 10 fsp as the total cost which can also be around 2,000,000 gold if you look at another way

or

almost 7,000,000 gold total per item which is still pretty expensive to me.

 

For me personally I forged everything till about level 700ish as around there I couldn't make enough gold while hunting to forge my gear and have any left over for potions. So I would forge here and there or just not and use guild items after that point.

 

25 FSP total would be my target to forging items again so I guess that works out to around 5,000,000 Gold, but that includes the 10 FSP.

 

So I guess my preference would be a total of 3,200,000 gold total +10 FSP

[killafrog]

Question to hoof Sounds like our FF item stats are going to get stronger; will the creatures stats be getting stronger?

Edited by killafrog, 11 December 2013 - 01:51.

[Hoofmaster]

Hoof, why are you basing new cost on the current cost of a level 1500 or level 1000 item?  In my opinion, that's still too high, and is why I stopped forging my stuff before that. Remember that gold gained per creature kill caps out at about level 300. That's why I suggested what I did on page 1 of this thread.

 

It was more just based on the amount of gold - I was just equating it to the cost of Hell Forging an item at a particular level

Question to hoof Sounds like our FF item stats are going to get stronger; will the creatures stats be getting stronger?

 

We won't be making any changes to the creatures no. The aim of this change is to make Hell Forging more worthwhile at higher levels.

In this alternative this just means a 5% increase to stats if u separate it out and do 5% each. I would definitly be more inclined to forge with the 10% total boost that you started with

 

 

While this is getting better I still equate 10 fsp as the total cost which can also be around 2,000,000 gold if you look at another way

or

almost 7,000,000 gold total per item which is still pretty expensive to me.

 

For me personally I forged everything till about level 700ish as around there I couldn't make enough gold while hunting to forge my gear and have any left over for potions. So I would forge here and there or just not and use guild items after that point.

 

25 FSP total would be my target to forging items again so I guess that works out to around 5,000,000 Gold, but that includes the 10 FSP.

 

So I guess my preference would be a total of 3,200,000 gold total +10 FSP

 

I'm open to suggestions as to what the max gold cost should be. The stat / percentage bonus would be split across the items stats though - I didn't quite think that through when I posted earlier

[Leos3000]

Hoof I have a question that kind of relates to cost of forging...

 

Are you going to readjust the gold per creature in the near future back to 300 gold per? or are we stuck with our little amount of gold gained past level 1600 at 200 gold per creature?

 

Because obtaining 33% less gold then the rest of the game does make it very hard to forge items as well even with a possible cap

[cyrus7]

It was more just based on the amount of gold - I was just equating it to the cost of Hell Forging an item at a particular level

Yeah I gathered that much, but what I was saying was that it was still too high at that level, and wondering why that's the level you are choosing as a target.

[Hoofmaster]

Hoof I have a question that kind of relates to cost of forging...

 

Are you going to readjust the gold per creature in the near future back to 300 gold per? or are we stuck with our little amount of gold gained past level 1600 at 200 gold per creature?

 

Because obtaining 33% less gold then the rest of the game does make it very hard to forge items as well even with a possible cap

 

It's something we could look at - I'll talk to BigGrim about it

Yeah I gathered that much, but what I was saying was that it was still too high at that level, and wondering why that's the level you are choosing as a target.

 

I was just working it out to be around 5 million gold. What do you think would be a better value?

[cyrus7]

Hoof I have a question that kind of relates to cost of forging...

 

Are you going to readjust the gold per creature in the near future back to 300 gold per? or are we stuck with our little amount of gold gained past level 1600 at 200 gold per creature?

 

Because obtaining 33% less gold then the rest of the game does make it very hard to forge items as well even with a possible cap

This is why I had suggested to base forging cost off the amount of gold that creatures drop at the level of the item. That should keep it fair across all levels, as far as forging anyway.

I was just working it out to be around 5 million gold. What do you think would be a better value?

I still firmly believe the forging cost should be related to the creature gold drops.

[killafrog]

A lot of people bring good ideas keep them coming

 

Think maybe a creature lvl is how much gold it gives or do a small increase and still a gold cap to help players make it in this game.

Edited by killafrog, 11 December 2013 - 02:21.

[Hoofmaster]

This is why I had suggested to base forging cost off the amount of gold that creatures drop at the level of the item. That should keep it fair across all levels, as far as forging anyway.

I still firmly believe the forging cost should be related to the creature gold drops.

 

Sure but the gold increase from creatures is linear like the cost increase for Hell Forging - the difference being that there is a cap on the gold from creatures but not one of the cost of Hell Forging.

 

I was planning to keep the actual cost formula the same, but just set an upper limit to the cost. It was more just what should that upper limit be do you think?

[Leos3000]

Just to put some numbers out here to help me think and maybe inspire some ideas for a cap.

 

From level 1220+ it takes the same amount of kills per level get get to the next level

 

Total Xp for the level / Xp per kill of a creature = 8000  (so with no buffs it would take 8000 kills to get to the next level)

 

Creatures from 300-1600 ALL drop on average 300 gold per kill

 

Common Items give around 2 stat points per level on average

 

FFed an item would give 10% boost to stats

 

Possibly using the above numbers we could come up with a better formula for hellforging (or take the easy way and just make a simple cap lol)

 

Item level * 2 * 300 (gold dropped) * %gain for forge (level 1 =1%)* Constant multiplier (say 20?) = Cost

 

Level 1000 *2*300* 1%*20 = 120,000 Gold (for 1st forge)

level 1000*2*300*10%*20  = 1,200,000 Gold (for 5th Forge)

 

This could work to some degree as your paying slightly more to get more stats per item? I dunno toss the numbers around if you wish to come up with something

[RebornJedi]

why is the amount of gold dropped by creatures still being brought up as a factor for hell forging costs?? you know how easy it is to make gold/FSP at levels above 300 and it gets easier and easier the higher you go.. 

[Pardoux]

Hoof I have a question that kind of relates to cost of forging...

 

Are you going to readjust the gold per creature in the near future back to 300 gold per? or are we stuck with our little amount of gold gained past level 1600 at 200 gold per creature?

 

Because obtaining 33% less gold then the rest of the game does make it very hard to forge items as well even with a possible cap

 

 

It's something we could look at - I'll talk to BigGrim about it

 

Hoof - check out http://forums.hunted...showtopic=59023

 

You asked me to start that thread and the vote is still almost 75% in favour of returning it to it's levels before 1601

 

BG has stated in the thread that he's no problem with it going back I think ? - but that changing it is a task for you, not him ?

[Mister Doom]

After talking in chat I need a little clarification. When you say a 10% boost.

 

Pounamu sword (level 1600) has 3600 stats perfect.

Currently raises to 3810 when hellforged.

This would be raised to 3960 under the proposed system?

I think when I responded earlier I wasn't quite reading you right.

 

I'd hate to think the hellforge update got borked because you listened to me when I was having a stupid moment.

Edited by Mister Doom, 11 December 2013 - 04:46.

[ehsan88]

I think gold cost should be something that attract players to hellforge items. it should be around 24 fsp cost of hellforge. 10 fsp + 2500000

[Vladimir00]

I like this idea for the most part, but there's one small problem... SE sets.

 

Changing hell forging from a set number of stat points to a percentage-based number of stat points would benefit most equipment, but when it comes to gear with huge set bonuses, but very small item bonuses, the benefit is practically nothing... so no one would bother to forge those sets.

Edited by Vladimir00, 11 December 2013 - 05:33.

[Staid]

In this alternative this just means a 5% increase to stats if u separate it out and do 5% each. I would definitly be more inclined to forge with the 10% total boost that you started with

 

 

While this is getting better I still equate 10 fsp as the total cost which can also be around 2,000,000 gold if you look at another way

or

almost 7,000,000 gold total per item which is still pretty expensive to me.

 

For me personally I forged everything till about level 700ish as around there I couldn't make enough gold while hunting to forge my gear and have any left over for potions. So I would forge here and there or just not and use guild items after that point.

 

25 FSP total would be my target to forging items again so I guess that works out to around 5,000,000 Gold, but that includes the 10 FSP.

 

So I guess my preference would be a total of 3,200,000 gold total +10 FSP

 

I think gold cost should be something that attract players to hellforge items. it should be around 24 fsp cost of hellforge. 10 fsp + 2500000

 

 

Interesting that we have two similar ideas of where to cap the forging costs at. As it happens, I too remember forging my last set at level 700, Owl Eye. I haven't been able to part with the expense of doing so ever again. With the proposed changes of a 10% stat icrease (please don't let it be split & divied up on multistat items), and the possibility of a reasonable gold cap for gettig a FF, I'd have to say that I would be on board with this. Coincidentally, to FF a level 700 item costs 3,255,000 gold + (approximately) 1,800,000 gold (if you find gold/fsp rates @ 180k/fsp) = 5,055,000 gold. [which you can either see as a total cost of 25.275fsp @ 200,000/fsp, or as 28.055fsp @ 180,000/fsp.]

 

So Leos3000 suggestion of capping it at 5,000,000 gold seems right in line with present FF costs on a level 700 item. Which happens to be where both he and I foud our natural ceiling to where we were willing to forge items.

 

I would put forward that serious cosideration be given to setting the gold cap at about 5,000,000 gold (with the mandatory 10 fsp converted & included within that cap #..... And then try to reduce it even further (and I'll explain precisely why in just a bit.) Any higher than 5,000,000 (25-28fsp) and a players ability to FF just one full 9 piece suit will climb from the 225-252fsp range (which I personally don't think that I can pull together) & jump 45-50 fsp for every million that you choose to raise that cap. The idea makes me shudder.

 

What if we worked the problem backwards. Say that we want every player to have the means within their reach to FF at least one of thier very own 9 piece sets. What is a reasonble #? 100 fsp? Really? For a 10% increase to the stats given to them from a 9 piece suit that maybe cost them 100 fsp to buy in whole? I'd argue for a lesser target number than 100 fsp to FF a 9 piece suit, but since 100 is a nice round number let's start here and work with that.

 

100 fsp spread out over all 9 items means 11.11111 FSP are spent upon FF each item. Annnnnnnndddd, we've already got a problem. FF is supposed to cost 10 fsp + a pile of gold. What if, what if we tweaked it to 5 fsp + a poket of gold? Dropping the capping limit down to a level 250 item solves the pocket of gold problem. It also happens to be a stones throw away from the level at which the gold dropped during creature kills is capped. (300) So, what if to FF an item were to now cost a player 5 fsp + (level*31*150)gold (that gold formula works with how 5 forgings add up presently by the way), where the level can never go above 250 anymore. Then the most it would cost a player to FF one item would be (working with 180,000gold/fsp) 5fsp + 1,162,500gold, or 2,062,500 gold (5 fsp coverted into gold). Extrapolate that out to cover all 9 items and it becomes 18,562,500 gold, or 103.125fsp. Fairly close to my target of 100fsp. (The level 236.6 actually makes this scenario work out perfectly, but let's stick with level 250.) (For anyone interested, this scenario to FF totalled approximately 2 million. The previous scenario cost 5 million was...3 million more. Remember when I said that "& jump 45-50 fsp for every million"? drop 3 million and the cost that was near 250, now drops to 250 - (50*3), or 100. Vioal!)

 

EXAMPLES OF TOTAL COST TO FF A 9 PIECE SUIT @ VARIOUS LEVELS USING THE 2 FORMULAS:

(possible gold cap targets)

 

(180,000gold/fsp) is used throughout.

 

5fsp + (level*31*150)

Level 250, 9 items FF = 103.125 fsp   (11.458fsp/item)

Level 300, 9 items FF = 114.75   fsp   (12.75fsp/item)

 

10fsp + (level*31*150)

Level 700, 9 items FF = 252.75   fsp   (28.083fsp/item)

Level 1k  , 9 items FF = 322.5     fsp   (35.833fsp/item)

Level 1.5k 9 items FF = 438.75   fsp   (48.75fsp/item)

 

CLEARLY, whatever final method used to cost out the FF process, it would be wise to look at this thing backwards. Players are FAR more likely to FF gear when it's within thier reach to FF whole suits, not just a piece or two. Please keep that grand total in mind when running the numbers here & remember that Forgings really shouldn't cost more than the gear itself costs, as Forgings are only worth 1/10th of the gear that they are in fact enhancing.

 

Thank you,