255 replies to this topic

[Kedyn]

 

I have mentioned two flaws with the original idea and counter solutions with points to back it up:

Instead of simple reset of rating, Introduce guild size brackets to really level the playing feild 

Don't mess with RP gain, Introduce new Reward currency for more exclusive buff packs

 

In both of these, I see large flaws:

 

First - Guild Size brackets - how do you break them down? How will you count inactives? How would you suggest dropping the brackets so that there is enough "active" guilds? Just like the ladder bands that you see in PVP now, you'd run much into the same issues with GVG, as guilds continue to dwindle in size and larger guilds continue to recruit those player away. There's more questions that I could come up with, but am moving on. 

 

I would like to say that I can both defend and argue against your point of size of guilds in GVG. Smaller guilds have an advantage in terms of coordination and just buffing players. With less players to buff, there is less stamina. On the same note, there are also less members to be online. Where you have larger guilds like LWS and ND where there are usually people from different countries on at all different times. Larger guilds, while requiring more buffs, also have the advantage of having more members online at times, more members that can help buff (ie carry the load of stamina) and to help. As I'm sure Lap and Teh can attest to, being in a GVG guild really comes down to preparation and a buy-in from members (irregardless of reason) to help defend the guild. 

 

To your second point, there is an easy way to offset the gains that Rye has suggested - introduce new rewards to offset the "short-term" increase in RP coming into the game and offer new, more expensive RP packs that help guilds defend in GVG (especially larger guilds) that enable buffs above the buffable level (not composing or epic potion levels). Honestly, with supply and demand, the market really isn't going to "tank" persay. It is going to drop like it does now because there is still an increasing supply with less demand (less players needing the RP epics). Thinking about the idea that Rye mentioned where attackers get no RP in Draws and Losses, that would significantly change the market as well. If defending guilds received 2x RP they get now for a draw, then I'd bet you'd see some increase in the defense process, and require attacking guilds to actively defend. Granted there is room to take advantage and work with guilds to "game" the system (it would be against HCS rules, so could result in bans), it would be an interesting idea to see. 

 

Rye - you know we've discussed this topic at length, both in guild and in the past when we were in separate guilds. I support the idea, and hope that it continues to see the positive feedback and the negative to help balance the idea. I'm all for more activity within GVG, and I've tried to post about it multiple times. I'm all for bringing more activity to this part of the game, and be able to help others expand their horizons to experience the fun that GVG between guilds can bring. It is an experience that helps expand your knowledge in the game, and helps strengthens the bonds between your friends and guildmates. I highly doubt that I'd have most of the allies on my list without PVP and GVG in the game in some way, shape or form.  

[Kedyn]

Side Thoughts/ Wish List:  It would be cool to see new RP buff packs introduced as well for 1 click cover all buffing.  Nothing crazy, just something to benefit the large (lots of members covered), and small (potentially limited human resources) guilds in making for the most possible competitive GvG venue ever.  Examples are for 25 RP Invigorate 200, 25 RP KE,Coordinated ATT, Smashing Hammer 175, 25 RP LD,GS,HG,FS 175,....etc..etc.  Something like that - I'm just throwing examples, these packs can be subject to community desire, but again it's important that we keep them reasonable - nothing overpowered -

 

One of the items I would suggest on this Rye is to increase the RP packs to at least above the current castable level of buffs (maybe like 200 or 225) so that it allows guilds some abilities to counter the composing and epic potions that people have access to.

 

Maybe also introduce a new buff (only in RP pack) where an offline defenders stats are increased XX% while no potions are active (buffs are okay, but epic potions, PVP ladder potions and composed potions counter the buff) so that it helps guilds defend when players are unable to get on, and will also possibly help to offset the leverage that composing and epic potions have introduced into the game. 

[BadPenny]

Good points Kittles.... I especially like the idea of the special "equalizer" buff....  Hoof might want more data about that...  

[Chooma123]

if you want to ask the best gvger, me, any questions, feel free

[Emperor Sidd]

Thank you for your feed back, I have answered some questions and commented on thing below

In both of these, I see large flaws:

 

First - Guild Size brackets - how do you break them down? How will you count inactives? How would you suggest dropping the brackets so that there is enough "active" guilds? Just like the ladder bands that you see in PVP now, you'd run much into the same issues with GVG, as guilds continue to dwindle in size and larger guilds continue to recruit those player away. There's more questions that I could come up with, but am moving on. 

 

I can explain, first it wouldn't be like ladder bands, second you would separate them into brackets based guild size on number of active ( last 7 days) for example 1-30/31-60/61-100+ number of active members. Now here's the kicker,Unlike ladder, guilds are not limited to the targets in their brackets, everyone is fair game. It is an idea to provide a fairer fight for rewards since it would measure your ability to win against all kinds of guild compared with other guild in the same bracket that have similar potential. As you explained both guild sizes have their advantages and drawbacks, in this system you complete with people with the same advantages and drawbacks for the rewards rather than large vs small guild where one may slight but indefinite advantage. This system gives every one an equal chance at the rewards. 

 

 

To your second point, there is an easy way to offset the gains that Rye has suggested - introduce new rewards to offset the "short-term" increase in RP coming into the game and offer new, more expensive RP packs that help guilds defend in GVG (especially larger guilds) that enable buffs above the buffable level (not composing or epic potion levels). Honestly, with supply and demand, the market really isn't going to "tank" persay. It is going to drop like it does now because there is still an increasing supply with less demand (less players needing the RP epics).

 

The gains he mentioned are double and triple RP. If my guild is able to produce a fang from a few days of gvg, that means my guild can add 2-3 fangs to ah in a week and also the other guilds who may only reach half a fang currently, end up adding fangs of their own. it's gonna drop like cows milk did because people realize if there are too many and casual GVGers are hungry for pay guild leaders will give in to lower prices. This can potentially kill the guild's interest in having gvgers for fang profits and if fangs sell for less, casual gvgers interested in fsp will move on too if they start loosing money. Again, cannot ignore the casual majority if trying to rework the system.  

 

Thinking about the idea that Rye mentioned where attackers get no RP in Draws and Losses, that would significantly change the market as well. If defending guilds received 2x RP they get now for a draw, then I'd bet you'd see some increase in the defense process, and require attacking guilds to actively defend. Granted there is room to take advantage and work with guilds to "game" the system (it would be against HCS rules, so could result in bans), it would be an interesting idea to see. 

 

I presented my view on attackers getting nothing on draws as a huge deterrent for people to initiate GVGs. It risks stam and funds for those looking at it as a business especially if defending gives 2x RP people may not like or want risk of investing into something and there being a good chance they get nothing. Guild leaders possibly not being happy with the lost initiating costs( not everyone is in it for the pride, rating or competition). If draw RP gain can be left as is  and defender RP gain increased sounds great since it reduces farming, increases activity and most of the time initiators aren't suprized if people defend, so when/if that does happen, the little bit of RP they still gain will not leave them disappointed.

 

Edited by SiddXIV, 26 April 2017 - 08:34.

[Chooma123]

I also dont think it would be fair if attackers got nothing for a draw, as in essence, both guilds have done the exact same thing, returned the hits, and drawn, so they should deserve equal pay, or the current system where the defender gets a little extra for some reason

[Ryebred]

I believe I have an idea for a GvG update that will encourage more participation, offer recognition for excellence, and level the playing field.  I don't think it would be too hard to implement as it would work using the same cool down period, and restrictions of the current GvG system.
 
 
Format:  In my proposed system GvG would have two successive 5 month ladder periods each ending with a month long tournament called "GvG Seasons", then followed by a reset of the GvG rankings.  The top 25 guilds from the 5 month GvG period would receive invitations to the GvG Seasons Tournament.  The top three finishers in the tournament will take home trophies which would appear in guild achievements, and those trophies would carry with them benefits for every member of the guilds earning them.  Bronze +1 stam gain per hour, Silver +2 stam gain per hour, Gold +4 stam gain per hour.  The trophies, and the benefits from them are temporary and can change hands at the completion of each GvG Seasons Tournament.  An additional incentive of being top 25, and qualifying for the GvG Seasons Tournament would be increased RP payout within the tournament -Double RP for outgoing wins, and Triple for successfully defending.  GvG for those outside the tournament would remain an option, but no rating awarded for the month, only RP.  Guilds inside the tournament would also still be allowed to GvG those outside the tournament, but for standard RP gains, and no rating transfer.  
 
    I think this format would encourage participation through potential rewards, and twice a year offer everyone a fresh start through the reset.  I also feel the rewards are simple, not over the top game changers, that everyone can get behind.
 
 
Recognition:  In addition to the trophies above, there would be two new medals associated with GvG.  A GvG Seasons qualifying medal for each member of a qualifying guild.  This medal would progress from bronze to diamond through repeat qualification at a rate decided upon by the administrators.  The second medal would be the GvG dominance medal, awarded for being the number one guild. (GvG dominance medal would parallel PvP dominance in it would require XXX hours or days to achieve, and progress)  Note: The medals are pride driven, offering no benefits outside of a duration boost to the "Pride" potion effects
 
    Recognition for effort, and accomplishment in GvG is long overdue in my opinion.  These are simple, and sensible additions that again I hope everyone can get behind.
 
 
Rewards:  Trophies, and potential for greater RP gains for a month are the obvious. 
 
    It was important to me not to overdo the rewards end, and try to steer away from the trend many see in FS in overcompensating every game effort made.  GvG has always revolved around Pride, and hopefully pride remains the driving force of the venue.  
 
Leveling Playing Field:  Resets alone give every guild the same opportunity to make it to the GvG Seasons Tournament, and the tournament itself offers a unique dynamic that could benefit deeper guild ranks, thus potentially limiting smaller GvG prototype guilds within the tournament through viable targets.  This may encourage the smaller venue specific guilds to fill their ranks, or participate in the GvG Seasons Tournament potentially handicapped via having less potential guilds to initiate against.  Larger guilds who would normally shy from attempting to compete have a set timetable, so jumping into any given reset period to mobilize, organize, and strut their stuff is feasible - can do just enough to get invite to tournament, then really turn it on for a chance at the hardware without having to buff 50+ people 24/7.  The time limitations presented inside the month long tournament would require serious strategy; organization, team play, and planning to improve odds of success.
 
    I've put a lot of thought into making GvG better for everyone, and trying to create the most fair system I could think of.  I'm sure it's not perfect, but it is a major step in the right direction.
 
 
Side Thoughts/ Wish List:  It would be cool to see new RP buff packs introduced as well for 1 click cover all buffing.  Nothing crazy, just something to benefit the large (lots of members covered), and small (potentially limited human resources) guilds in making for the most possible competitive GvG venue ever.  Examples are for 25 RP Invigorate 200, 25 RP KE,Coordinated ATT, Smashing Hammer 175, 25 RP LD,GS,HG,FS 175,....etc..etc.  Something like that - I'm just throwing examples, these packs can be subject to community desire, but again it's important that we keep them reasonable - nothing overpowered -
 
I may add more to this portion.  This is second time writing this idea, as first attempt last night was lost unfortunately.  So if I forgot anything or think of anything else I'll amend the post.  I look forward to feedback, and hope for support from both the community, and the administrators.  Thank you ~ Rye

In the opinions of many there seems to be a real problem in venue with farming. This problem came with the earning potential HCS implemented to try and boost life into GvG years ago. I'm now for a quality of opponent boost and penalty system in addition to the rest of my idea. Guilds with a sub 1k or base rating would only award 1/2 the rp of those above the base line. This would certainly appeal to the true majority (people not wishing to be farmed week in and week out or non participants) For those who live off RP, this would strengthen the market value of RP.

I also see many who think 5 month qualifying period is too long, so am fine with a 3 month qualifying / 1 month long tournament ratio if it keeps the activity flowing.

I still believe the trophies would need to potentially change hands upon tournament completion or most guilds would simply make a one time effort to them, then never play again.

The addition of more rp buff packs would benefit the theme of competition, while further strengthening the market for RP. So I think double, and triple rewards for those earning tournament birth remains a good incentive to partake.

I will no longer derail my own idea by engaging with those with negative feedback. They believe they know better, so can start another idea thread, or present their ideas in my thread (totally cool with that) The idea, and cross examination by the players will sort itself out over time. I will comment and reply to questions as I see fit.

I reaffirm my intention in presenting this idea is for the global betterment of the GvG venue overall. I am not doing this to serve a personal agenda.

[Spider0007]

I really like the ideas and system you have developed Rye. I think anything that would breathe life back into GvG would be an overall positive for the game. Without any feedback from admin, its hard to tell if this will gain any traction. The cows seem to avoid these types of threads for some reason.

My suggestion to this whole topic is rather than replacing the current gvg system and rating, perhaps this would be more beneficial to be an addition to it. I could see this type of "tournament" being easily setup as a type of Global event, or Seasonal event that all guilds would have the opportunity to participate in periodically throughout the year. Maybe 1-2 times a year. Perhaps even bringing back PvP seasons at the same time would fun!

Edited by Spider0007, 26 April 2017 - 15:00.

[BigGrim]

The cows seem to avoid these types of threads for some reason.

Not really. I asked Rye to put this on the forum so I could quietly watch it. Gonna grab Hoofmaster at some point and look over it with him. I like to see feedback from the Community first.

 

~ Grim

[BadPenny]

Not really. I asked Rye to put this on the forum so I could quietly watch it. Gonna grab Hoofmaster at some point and look over it with him. I like to see feedback from the Community first.

 

~ Grim

Ever diligent, always watching.... shoulda been named "BigBrother"

[Chooma123]

no disrespect to the cows, but you say that about every thread, then its gets buried and forgotten about

[BadPenny]

Actually, I often see that BG or Hoof are present in a thread when I'm reading or posting....

 

Just like with our prayers, sometimes the answer is just no.  Doesn't mean they aren't listening.

[yotwehc]

In the opinions of many there seems to be a real problem in venue with farming. This problem came with the earning potential HCS implemented to try and boost life into GvG years ago. I'm now for a quality of opponent boost and penalty system in addition to the rest of my idea. Guilds with a sub 1k or base rating would only award 1/2 the rp of those above the base line. This would certainly appeal to the true majority (people not wishing to be farmed week in and week out or non participants) For those who live off RP, this would strengthen the market value of RP.

I also see many who think 5 month qualifying period is too long, so am fine with a 3 month qualifying / 1 month long tournament ratio if it keeps the activity flowing.

I still believe the trophies would need to potentially change hands upon tournament completion or most guilds would simply make a one time effort to them, then never play again.

The addition of more rp buff packs would benefit the theme of competition, while further strengthening the market for RP. So I think double, and triple rewards for those earning tournament birth remains a good incentive to partake.

I will no longer derail my own idea by engaging with those with negative feedback. They believe they know better, so can start another idea thread, or present their ideas in my thread (totally cool with that) The idea, and cross examination by the players will sort itself out over time. I will comment and reply to questions as I see fit.

I reaffirm my intention in presenting this idea is for the global betterment of the GvG venue overall. I am not doing this to serve a personal agenda.

I like the revisions and now support the idea. Good luck.

[Melons]

. I could see this type of "tournament" being easily setup as a type of Global event, or Seasonal event that all guilds would have the opportunity to participate in periodically throughout the year. Maybe 1-2 times a year. Perhaps even bringing back PvP seasons at the same time would fun!

^This

 

I believe this might be the solution to satisfy both sides. Create a global/seasonal event that focuses on the competitive part of GvG while leaving the current one alone for those that are more interested in the profit side.

 

 

Also, this is my opinion, but if a global competitive GvG is made I don't think players showed be allowed to use High Guard, Golden Shield, Dispel Curse, Invert, etc.

Edited by Melons, 27 April 2017 - 02:35.

[Kedyn]

^This

 

I believe this might be the solution to satisfy both sides. Create a global/seasonal event that focuses on the competitive part of GvG while leaving the current one alone for those that are more interested in the profit side.

 

 

Also, this is my opinion, but if a global competitive GvG is made I don't think players showed be allowed to use High Guard, Golden Shield, Dispel Curse, Invert, etc.

 

While I think things like HG/GS/DC/Invert cause a lot of luck, I don't see the issue of excluding them. However, this "tournament" or global/seasonal event could be a really good "test" time for the idea of limiting buffs (composing / epic potions) or the other ideas Hoof and Grim were discussing with buffs in things such as PVP and GVG. It would be interesting to see how that would affect the event and allow time for players to test and work through.

 

Rye - I like the revisions, and would support the changes as Yow mentioned above. Like many here who are in favor in some way, it would be nice to breathe life back into the GVG aspect and introduce more players into it. 

[yotwehc]

Playing devils advocate with regard to the revised idea, this would give the lower rated guild an unfair advantage were they to become very active to make the top tiers. Fighting strong guilds, they would get full credit with wins but strong guilds would only get 1/2 credit fighting back :/

[Melons]

While I think things like HG/GS/DC/Invert cause a lot of luck, I don't see the issue of excluding them. However, this "tournament" or global/seasonal event could be a really good "test" time for the idea of limiting buffs (composing / epic potions) or the other ideas Hoof and Grim were discussing with buffs in things such as PVP and GVG. It would be interesting to see how that would affect the event and allow time for players to test and work through.

Yeah, that is what I was thinking too since there was that whole discussion regarding composing/epic buffs.

[activeh1]

well my 3 cents worth as there are only on average 250 players on ,dont think anything will revive gvg

[Ryebred]

Playing devils advocate with regard to the revised idea, this would give the lower rated guild an unfair advantage were they to become very active to make the top tiers. Fighting strong guilds, they would get full credit with wins but strong guilds would only get 1/2 credit fighting back :/

Nice thing about the proposed changes is once a guild crosses the baseline rating or 1k- they open themselves up to full gains against them. The 1k serves as a threshold so those wanting to not fall subject to farming / non participants are less profitable to the initiating guild.

[BadPenny]

well my 3 cents worth as there are only on average 250 players on ,dont think anything will revive gvg

If you have so much disdain for the game and for the ideas of players (and staff, as I have observed now and then), why even show up?  Such negativity can only be toxic for the rest of us.  

 

Keep in mind that 250-400 online players doesn't mean it's the same players 24/7.  This is a worldwide game, and I'm sure ALL of us sleep, eat, have real life stuff to do.  

 

Only the cow gods know how many actual active players there are in total, and "online now" only reflects how many of those are here NOW, which is kind of self explanatory.

 

I may or may not agree with suggestions made in this forum, but I try to keep an open mind, as I know it's not all about me.