184 replies to this topic

[Pardoux]

Or just don't use the buffs? Not everyone has a massive Guild with every structure maxed out. Some players NEED those buffs to actually be able to level.

Just sayin'.

 

3 active players and 5 structures - hardly massive guild with every structure maxxed

[rowbeth]

Got to say that Imp is completely the wrong place to do this. The big problem there is that neutering the Imp means that every so often you lose 20% of your damage while you rebuild DD. Now, either levelling is too easy and you don't care about the 20% so the Imp is irrelevant, or levelling is closely balanced and losing 20% is a major penalty.

 

I'd also say that "challenge" is not the same as "risk" or "penalty". Making people die more often does not make hunting more challenging, it just makes it more costly. To be more challenging, players need to have to devise new strategies to be successful, and the only real option for that is to have to acquire multiple combinations of equipment to be able to overcome multiple difficulties; that would make people plan ahead and acquire the different equipment combinations they will need for their hunts.

 

But there is not much challenge in finding 4-5 different sets that you use for 1000 levels, so you will need to have those sets being upgraded reasonably frequently, and that in turn means that HCS would need to find the time to develop *many* more possible equipment combinations filling in the large gaps we currently have between new sets at high levels.

 

Now, do we really want HCS spending their time constructing multiple set combinations every 100 levels or so? And do they have the time to do that? We had 6 months last year where there was a lot of complaints about not enough content release. That won't get easier if they have to provide more sets at a much greater rate to go with that content.

 

In the end, you won't create more challenge by taking things away. You will only create challenge by putting more new things into the game. Personally, I think we have to be realistic about the fact that innovation gets harder over time.

[Mister Doom]

3 active players and 5 structures - hardly massive guild with every structure maxxed

 

Got you beat there boss. lol

[sweetlou]

Or just don't use the buffs? Not everyone has a massive Guild with every structure maxed out. Some players NEED those buffs to actually be able to level.

Just sayin'.

I'm aghast that you believe some players "NEED" massively overpowered skills like KE, CA, CD, SH and many more in the 300s/400s/500s and even 600s to level! What leads you to make that assertion? It's even more surprising that you attribute the problem of the game's current "simplicity" and lack of challenge in leveling to guild structures...

[RebornJedi]

Making the future creatures harder, while providing those at EOC with ways to acquire gear to battle those creatures would be better than changing a buff... Not that I'm against changing SSi to what you are suggesting.. But that's doesn't make leveling harder, just need to watch and purchase imps more often.. Tis a start but nothing groundbreaking..

New content should have it so new elite gear is needed to one hit kill the last creature or two.. Otherwise you have those with legendary gear 100s of levels below EOC to finish the new content wit ease

Edited by RebornJedi, 14 January 2016 - 22:50.

[SirAdmiral]

PvP combats the simplicity of leveling.

[Mister Doom]

"100's of levels below" lol

You can comfortably smash the creeps using gear 1000+ below...

[rowbeth]

"100's of levels below" lol

You can comfortably smash the creeps using gear 1000+ below...

 

Very true - but that is just as well because the gear 1000+ levels below is still the best gear available for the job.

[sweetlou]

Very true - but that is just as well because the gear 1000+ levels below is still the best gear available for the job.

Gear has nothing to do with being able to level 1000 levels below your current level! It's the overpowered potions that allow the same gear to be used blindly - it's what has caused the game to become unchallenging while leveling!! PvP is another matter that simply pits those that have from annihilating those that don't at the same level.

 

But to prove my point in leveling, try using the same gear with only personal 175 skills to level 1000 levels below your current level. You can't come close to doing it one hitting the whole way like with the uber potions. So in his last post BigGrim is asking if we should stop using uber pots if it will make the game "better" again. He's asking us to stop using what has been developed by HCS so that players can enjoy a challenging game again, because some players NEED these pots?

 

The sheer number of radically powered composing pots and globals needs to be countered with some kind of action to the game! Instead, can we get some development of the leveling mechanics to offset  these super pots? Make the mobs much tougher. Players past level 1000 should already be facing super champion-type stats normally with only regular xp given, and that's still too easy with the current pots available.

 

If that's too difficult to develop at least cut off handing out these ridiculous pots 10 at a time for spending 3k stamina while killing global mobs naked. While the camaraderie aspect is admirable, even fun, the challenge is next to 0.

 

I understand that while the game has added these aspects to further play, how about giving away reserve stam as rewards to global events instead of these pots that have essentially broken the game making it so easy. That is essentially what everyone vies for - to play farther and longer(sometimes not even the latter). Why not add some skill back into the leveling mechanics that so many of us remember pre- global and composing potions? The donation pots weren't a problem before, plus they drive revenue so don't dare touch those.

 

There's so many things that can be done, I think it's time some development action is required.

[bloody18]

Implement this at areas not created yet ...such as levels  3000 plus and I am cool with it .. changing mob stats already implemented that people have already blown by .. Im not cool with that. 

 

 

 

I have to agree that using buffs is a choice, using imp is a choice ..you can change the difficulty of your hunt at will!

[rowbeth]

Gear has nothing to do with being able to level 1000 levels below your current level! It's the overpowered potions that allow the same gear to be used blindly - it's what has caused the game to become unchallenging while leveling!! PvP is another matter that simply pits those that have from annihilating those that don't at the same level.

 

You are missing my point Luis.

 

The two go hand in hand. The overpowered potions have allowed HCS to make gear updates extremely infrequent over the last 1500 levels. If one now just removed those potions, many of us would stuggle to sublevel 1000 levels below our level [perhaps stated with a bit of hyperbole---I haven't checked in detail]. HCS can't change the potions without putting a lot of effort into the equipment. I agree that SH should have been capped at a MUCH lower level than it is---but implementing that would have required HCS to bring out a lot more continually stronger sets as they brought out new content, and new content is already a bottleneck that many (though not all) are concerned about. I really think the ship has sailed on that one.

 

But fundamentally, making any growth aspect of the game continually challenging is nigh on impossible. As people grow in that aspect, the challenges have to keep growing. If one does that just through the natural stats of that aspect of the game, this requires continual exponential growth and leads to a game that is ridiculously unbalanced across the levels (far exceeding anything in FS over 2500 levels). The effort also becomes unsustainable as the number of players affected gets spread more thinly across more levels. Alternatively, it requires continual innovation, and continually introducing new ideas every few levelling episodes over 10 years is simply not practical.

Edited by rowbeth, 15 January 2016 - 08:43.

[Egami]

So I was thinking this was getting really far off topic, but the generality of the topic title itself leaves some room for discussion, even though Pardoux's suggestion focuses on Imp. 

 

Regarding the topic itself  ("Something to help combat the simplicity of levelling these days", in case some have forgotten), the most interesting suggestion I found was here: 

 

New content should have it so new elite gear is needed to one hit kill the last creature or two.. Otherwise you have those with legendary gear 100s of levels below EOC to finish the new content wit ease

That sounds like an intriguing idea to me. How far we go could be up to discussion, but we might even require them to be used to hit those creatures at end of content. And if they were bound or tied into other game aspects... well, maybe too far afield.

 

That said, both myself and at least one other person thinks that making leveling more difficult is not going to help the game and the very idea is passé. I hope the player who I quote in the next part will forgive me for taking their quote a bit out of context, but it reiterates my point to a huge degree:

 

i would love to see some variation to the mobs..for sure, making them a little tougher and where you need to change gear often..even at my level i go hundreds of levels without changing..still have on level 200 gear for hunting at level 600...easy mobs make most of the gear in the game worthless ( no longer worthless for frags) ..but i think those get my point..more challenge i like..champions also, need to be tougher to kill....se's, elites, titans all seem to be a good enough challenge as they are.

 

Again, I hope it's not "unwanted attention", but this particular player is just above level 607. For me, it's a perfect example of the fact that what us "oldies" went through hasn't existed for ages. My interpretation is that "some" might want to get off the whole silliness of thinking they walked 10 miles through the snow.

 

Especially pertinent for me is the last line. Again, that's where I think the "challenge" is. 

 

Finally, the whole uber pot discussion just makes me laugh. What appears to be forgotten to me is that these aren't plentiful, per se. Composing pots could be debatable on that aspect, but I have my doubts. 

 

However, GE or HCS-conceded ones? People seem to forget that these aren't used simply for leveling. For the most part, I have tons and use them mostly for other aspects. Guess what? They are running out. That said, I'm NOT asking for more. I'm intelligent enough to gauge my personal game play... but... 

 

Obviously, we all play differently. There are game aspects that some participate in and others do not. I'd simply request that you realize that just because you play how you play does not mean that uber pots are everlasting for everyone. 

 

All that said, I'd reiterate the Admin position: Not everyone in game has access to all buffs nor even the so-called "uber" composing potions. I rarely hit max stam and I am close to 20k.... but don't forget about those that only have around 2k or less. They probably hunt a lot more often and will thus run out of the HCS-gifted "uber" pots a lot sooner. 

 

So all-in-all, I get the challenge aspect and have longed believed it. Now, I'm thinking differently. I do believe that it's way easier than when I went through it. I'd just kindly request that you stop thinking about yourself. At only level 1200 despite playing daily for 8 years, I can recognize that I too have it a lot easier than many that passed here years ago. And?

 

Edit: corrected misspelling of Pardoux's name, nothing else, lol. Sorry Par, hehe.

Edited by Egami, 16 January 2016 - 04:24.

[sweetlou]

Or just don't use the buffs? Not everyone has a massive Guild with every structure maxed out. Some players NEED those buffs to actually be able to level.

Just sayin'.

I'll ask again, doesn't using gear 1000+ levels below my target mob level with composing and global pots dumb down the game and destroy most of the challenge it once took to play the game?

 

Equally as important, BG what makes you think players "NEED" these high skill levels? Still curious.

[kitobas]

I'll ask again, doesn't using gear 1000+ levels below my target mob level with composing and global pots dumb down the game and destroy most of the challenge it once took to play the game?

 

Equally as important, BG what makes you think players "NEED" these high skill levels? Still curious.

bro, everyone knowing that composing potions and global event potions dumbing down game and destroying most challenge but global potions can be getting from everyone from using little stamina and global potions are only few you can getting from global event

composing potions you can getting very many from fragments, we having every global event giving fragments

because of fragments giving easy to us last time I doing LE event was 2 year ago

[EpicPiety]

Slowly nerf all the OP potions... Ween us off.

[sweetlou]

Slowly nerf all the OP potions... Ween us off.

That's a pretty good idea. The ladder, composed and global potions have given players an opiate-like reliance that is dangerous to the quality of the game. Atm players can use gear 1000 levels below actual level in PvE, hence the push back and point of this thread. Another solution would be an increase in the mob difficulty. The problem with only making the monster more challenging would be the negative effects these pots have on PvP. I believe there should be development in combination of both. Is this an impractical development suggestion?

 

Notice that donation pots have not been included. I believe the addition of ladder, composing and global pots has really hurt donations! HCS will never admit it, but they can see the numbers and players can put the two together. Players should have to donate to have God-like potion power. In the meantime these pots are simultaneously hurting HCS' bottom line and the challenge players desire - a double wammy. I'm unsure what evidence is required for us to action.

[EpicPiety]

That's a pretty good idea. The ladder, composed and global potions have given players an opiate-like reliance that is dangerous to the quality of the game. Atm players can use gear 1000 levels below actual level in PvE, hence the push back and point of this thread. Another solution would be an increase in the mob difficulty. The problem with only making the monster more challenging would be the negative effects these pots have on PvP. I believe there should be development in combination of both. Is this an impractical development suggestion?

 

Notice that donation pots have not been included. I believe the addition of ladder, composing and global pots has really hurt donations! HCS will never admit it, but they can see the numbers and players can put the two together. Players should have to donate to have God-like potion power. In the meantime these pots are simultaneously hurting HCS' bottom line and the challenge players desire - a double wammy. I'm unsure what evidence is required for us to action.

I'd actually like to see nerfing of potions and increased difficulty of mobs...Especially in the higher levels to say the least. Lets get rid of this 1 hitting standard and open the playing field for even 2 hitting again. Still make 1 hitting possible but it should be a luxury in the higher levels. 2 hitting opens up the field to so many assortments of sets which will result in less supply and more demands for a variety of sets...Not just 9 certain items for each range.

 

 

***Edit

Maybe in the next composing update to 70 do not make the skills more powerful simply spread the current level out more. Opposed to hitting 480 SH at level 60 make it 70? Although this will in return create a problem years down the road when everyone's 70... Solution??? Once you get past a certain determined lvl you can always make say CoA 300 CoD 300 SH 300 at level 50? Lets say the composing max level is 60. You will have a fixed time period that will reset every so often to create potions better than level 50. Lets say every 6-12 months all the composers that are over level 50 will reset back to 50 and be allowed to level back to 60. This will in return cause a good gold sink/frag sink aswell as create competition in composing. It will also somewhat nerf composing pots as there won't be nearly as easy to obtain...It's either that or totally nerf and scale down the composing levels. Think this is a fair median for those high level composers 50+.

Edited by EpicPiety, 29 January 2016 - 18:13.

[Davros81]

I'd actually like to see nerfing of potions and increased difficulty of mobs...Especially in the higher levels to say the least. Lets get rid of this 1 hitting standard and open the playing field for even 2 hitting again. Still make 1 hitting possible but it should be a luxury in the higher levels. 2 hitting opens up the field to so many assortments of sets which will result in less supply and more demands for a variety of sets...Not just 9 certain items for each range.

 

 

***Edit

Maybe in the next composing update to 70 do not make the skills more powerful simply spread the current level out more. Opposed to hitting 480 SH at level 60 make it 70? Although this will in return create a problem years down the road when everyone's 70... Solution??? Once you get past a certain determined lvl you can always make say CoA 300 CoD 300 SH 300 at level 50? Lets say the composing max level is 60. You will have a fixed time period that will reset every so often to create potions better than level 50. Lets say every 6-12 months all the composers that are over level 50 will reset back to 50 and be allowed to level back to 60. This will in return cause a good gold sink/frag sink aswell as create competition in composing. It will also somewhat nerf composing pots as there won't be nearly as easy to obtain...It's either that or totally nerf and scale down the composing levels. Think this is a fair median for those high level composers 50+.

No to having the composing skills spread out further. Being a person who is almost at the ceiling of level 60 I do not ant my achievement diminished or rather that the carrot on the end of the line being moved further way, that will simply lead me, and most likely others, to feel further resentment.

[Filletminion]

People really want challenge in levelling? There never was any it is and always was an illusion created by guide followers that have never had the best setups shared with them, I look at wiki and other guides and see almost none that have close to the "best" setup in each range.

Composing was championed by 2 players one who started this thread and another who was a known multi and person seeking any advantage he could get in the game by befriending those with influence.

It has been a phenomenal gold sink but has thrown the game under the proverbial bus.

The silliness is it is now possible to get overkill bonus without wither in almost any range Coa and SH at 350 and 480 are pure craziness given how easy they are to make as you increase level there needs to be a time penalty on creation of said pots as you increase their levels.

 

The last time HCS made an area challenging we had players crying about stamina usage that was bordering on 5 k stam per level a change was made to the code that I believe applied from 1221 or 2 upwards since then it is supposed to have remained static at around 3500 a level with standard 175 buffs. Thing is almost no one uses 175 buffs at eoc.

 

At eoc the best damage stat set still uses a set 1000 levels below despite new sets being added they do not increase the total numbers significantly to warrant their cost given composing pots effect, the only reason to use them is enhancements for teleport.Which barely rates a mention in levelling when we have lightfoot 1725 on for a quick walk.

 

At the same time game balance needs consideration it cannot continue to go as it has done these past 4 years.

Edited by zizzwyly, 31 January 2016 - 10:56.

[Pardoux]

 

Composing was championed by 2 players one who started this thread and another who was a known multi and person seeking any advantage he could get in the game by befriending those with influence.

 

I started the thread and, by default, I championed Composing ?

 

Maybe I did - when it first launched - in its initial 50 level cap, but pandering to those who wanted the cap raising from 50 to 60 (and thus making some of the already high level potions, even higher level) was most definitely not championed by me. I was against it, just as I am against it being raised even further.

 

Also, when Composing was first introduced, no-one (other than the cows) knew what potions were going to be affected by composing, nor at what level they would cap out - so yes, it was a great idea initially. But, unfortunately, one that has become too powerful.

 

Will i still keep composing and trying to reach Level 60 ? - of course I will - I would be silly not to, but should the pots be that high a level ? - of course not.