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Problem With Warriors in PvP


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#1 Doja

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 08:56

I just want to point out current difficulties I encounter playing a (mostly) Warrior in PvP.  Granted, I do not have a full PvP build but it is partially PvP, not full PvE.

 

More specifically the problem comes against ranged enemies.  Certainly, I could design a better build and get better gems.  Certainly too, I could use my skills better.  I'm not saying melee is impossible to use PvP.  But I merely want to highlight certain fundamental disadvantages.

 

The Core Issue

 

The core problem is getting kited.  The way Eldevin has set up melee vs ranged is this: Ranged wins by kiting, melee wins by getting close and killing before kiting - and rangers specifically are given a skill to make themselves faster.  Warriors are given a skill to charge in quickly and a skill to slow the opponent.

 

Some may think this is natural, but there is an alternative.  The alternative is that ranged gets free shots while melee closes the distance, but that melee is naturally slightly faster.  Once melee gets in close, the ranged isn't getting away; but melee isn't granted a charge skill - they have to eat shots while closing the distance.  With the current damage mechanics, perhaps this would make ranged even more powerful.  And I'm not suggesting this be changed, but  am merely pointing out that the mechanics, rather than limiting kiting, are designed to make it a fundamental element.

 

 

Specific Problems

 

Lost Talent Points / Space in Skill Bar:  The first issue that Warriors have is that they have to spend talent points and take up space on the skill bar just to catch a ranged enemy.  Ranged units naturally have the advantage; they don't have to spend points just to catch a melee opponent.  Some may say that ranged units invest in slow and stun, but melee uses stun also, so that's a wash.  In fact, Rangers have their stun and slow combined in one skill (crystal blast) along with two talent points (concussion).

 

Warriors have to invest two talent points in adrenaline rush, three talent points in midnight's grasp, and require two skills used on the skill bar just to try to counter the natural kiting advantage of ranged units.  Then throw in frozen spires and that's another skill on the skill bar (and possibly one to three points in Watch Your Step, with a Warsin build) to deal with enemies trying to run away.

 

As it currently stands there are 15 skills that I'd like to use (not counting buffs, which I keep on second bar) and only 12 slots.  A full PvP build would likely focus on removing some of these.  But it still stands that a Warrior has to devote three spots just to cope with the natural kiting advantage of enemies.

 

 

Ignite/Crystal Blast Always Beats Jolt:  When I cast jolt and a ranged enemy casts ignite or crystal blast, I always see the animation for jolt on my screen but it doesn't cast because the opponent's effect is quicker.  Jolt has an added animation element for some reason.  Another disadvantage.

 

 

Adrenaline Rush/Meteorite Stun Can Miss Fleeing Enemy:  Adrenaline rush has a limited casting range (like any attack) but it doesn't follow a fleeing target outside of that range.  So if used on a fleeing enemy who gets outside that range, its effectively useless except that its closed some of the distance.  But missing the stun effect is enormous.  Similarly, Meteorite can cast when a target is in range but if the target moves outside the blast radius it misses (which seems to happen a lot).  Ranged characters do not have this problem.  Ranged attacks that have a moving projectile will follow a fleeing target outside that range and around walls.  And of course ignite is instant hit.  This is an enormous advantage for ranged characters.  If a warrior misses his stuns its automatically game over.  This is the biggest frustration of mine out of all the disadvantages I listed.

 

 

Conclusion

 

Some will undoubtedly say that as a warrior you have to use smarter tactics.  You can't engage at a far distance.  Certainly this is true, but ranged characters know the same thing.  This leads to standoffs, where neither party wants to abandon their position.  Standoffs are boring and should be discouraged.

 

The sad part is that I'm starting to like Drateol's Pit simply because it offers a better chance at fighting in close proximity.  But until the auto-zoom in is removed, this map is horrendous.

 

There are other team based issues as well.  Such as if one team has four ranged and one team has three ranged and a warrior, the warrior at some point has to charge into the opponents or simply allow a 4 on 3 ranged battled to occur.  Charging in is usually a quick death, as the ranged team all focuses on the charger and the warrior leaves any healer he has behind while any healer the enemy has can heal his target.

 

Just my thoughts.  Not advocating any nerf or specific solution in this post.


Edited by Doja, 09 November 2014 - 09:01.

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#2 Mongo

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 12:15

Reported and discussed Adren Rush being able to be dodged, with a dev a week after release Doja. Was told it is indeed broke and would be fixed.  :(

 

I had an idea for an improvement to Adrenaline rush... The new rush would discharge an aoe stun on point of impact, and you would no longer need to target a player to be able to use it. You could just click a point on the ground instead! This would also allow adren rush to be used as a movement skill more often too.

 

I know that does not solve all the problems, but it may help.


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#3 lester

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 14:06

Yea, Drateol's Pit

is a very bad map in which it favorites certain classes like Healers because as soon as they cut a corner they can self heal themselves to full health and position themselves to heal their team while being untargetable by the enemy team.Me and slip and a lvl 11 lost to a team with a lvl 45 healer and two lvl 11 rangers because of this reason.


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#4 ultramus

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 14:08

Basically Adrenaline Rush/Flame rush should work like Miasma with a 1 yard stun radius. That would help solve the problem of getting in range for a warrior. The alternative would to make it always hit regardless of where the runner goes. This however would make it like incinerate, and we'd end up with warriors running through walls :P.

 

But there will never be perfect balance, once warrior can close the gap it will go back to chop, chop everything dead and then the other classes will complain.



#5 Simeonus

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 14:56

But there will never be perfect balance, once warrior can close the gap it will go back to chop, chop everything dead and then the other classes will complain.

 

 

It's fine when ranged pew, pew melee but it's not if melee chop, chop ranged >.>?

 

I fully agree with what Doja wrote, Warriors need mayor buff in PvP. 



#6 Doja

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:30

But there will never be perfect balance, once warrior can close the gap it will go back to chop, chop everything dead and then the other classes will complain.

 

I'm not so sure this is entirely true.  In my experience, the warrior only gets one shot to unload his skills and get the kill.  If that's not enough to kill the enemy, he's done.  Often a ranged enemy does not die from one assault even when I land my stun (especially if being healed) and escapes.  Now all my skills are on cool down and I get destroyed.

 

Allowing a warrior to close the gap simply turns it into an actual fight (getting kited is not a fight).  A ranged unit can still use skills, potions, or help from allies to fight back or escape.


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#7 Kedyn

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:38

Doja,

 

This is exactly what I have felt when I've done PVP - granted it hasn't been in the battle grounds, but usually defending/fighting in TA. It's the exact reason why I really haven't wanted to venture into PVP is because no matter how you look at it, Warrior and Templars are at a direct disadvantage to start. Once I realized that even monsters could out-range my Meteor Strike and Adrenaline Rush - I figured that normal players would easily be able to do it as well (which proved true). Until there is a better balance, I don't plan on participating in PVP in matches.



#8 Doja

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:38

Reported and discussed Adren Rush being able to be dodged, with a dev a week after release Doja. Was told it is indeed broke and would be fixed.  :(

 

I had an idea for an improvement to Adrenaline rush... The new rush would discharge an aoe stun on point of impact, and you would no longer need to target a player to be able to use it. You could just click a point on the ground instead! This would also allow adren rush to be used as a movement skill more often too.

 

I know that does not solve all the problems, but it may help.

 

This is a very interesting point.  I was going to create a separate thread on this (at some point) but I'll give a quick summary of my thoughts: There has to be uniformity.

 

Either all skills that target a player will track the player even when out of range or none do.  Right now, Meteorite and Adrenaline Rush both require targeting a player "within range" but if the player moves out of range they will miss. 

 

One possible change is what you and Ultra pointed out: Change it into a location attack rather than a target attack.  A similar change could be made with meteorite - make it work more like tremor.  I could be in favor of these but the blast radius would need to be significant (one meter may not be enough).  Tremor has a huge radius and I'm not saying it need be that big.  Nor am I good with judging meters in the game, but the meteorite range is far too small (as now, you need to be close to an enemy to use it but if that enemy moves just a little further away it will miss).

 

But for attacks that do require a specific player target, there needs to be uniformity in tracking.


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#9 ultramus

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:49

Changing Frenzy could also help. Reduce the cooldown and + 20% foot speed instead of mana regeneration perhaps?



#10 Simeonus

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:53

What about CC immunity, frenzy provides it but since everyone can have same immunity w/o skills it seems to be pointless..



#11 Mongo

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 17:54

What about CC immunity, frenzy provides it but since everyone can have same immunity w/o skills it seems to be pointless..

 

It is not pointless, because you can use it to gain immunity before entering combat. It has been made a little less useful though, with cc immunity.  :P


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#12 slipknot84

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 23:34

when they introduced crowd control and increased range range they simply didnt realise how this would affect melee...50 posts about why this fked up melee and here we are .....can fix plox.


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#13 slipknot84

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 23:48

you have fundamentaly screwed any meleee buold for pvp, we have undefeatable heal/mages. any character that teleport out of snare.. you gave range stun and snare that cant be dodged... do you not like melee or  just dont think what these things do?


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#14 slipknot84

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 23:55

the first thing you do is 2 chracter builds, 2nd auction house, 3rd is guolds, last is player owned houses....and before that fix the crowd control bullshit.  remove the i can see further with extra range attack range...dumbest thong ever. and then a melee could pvp.  and all this cause 1 guy complained about 8.5 sec silence.


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#15 slipknot84

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 00:03

and no i wont stop complaining til i ahve a fair chance against a range..i throw everything i have at them..i get snared they run away and pew..im dead... great balance...and all because 1 guy complained about 8.5 sec silence..insertfaceplamgifhere


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#16 ernzor

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 00:08

had me and 3 range vs 4 range today.... i didnt do much except cry in corner


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#17 Doja

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 00:09

What about CC immunity, frenzy provides it but since everyone can have same immunity w/o skills it seems to be pointless..

 

Frenzy does not grant CC immunity.  Frenzy only grants immunity to snares and slows, not stuns.

 

EDIT:  Not sure Frenzy is working properly.  I cast it and it gives me 30 seconds of immunity to all stuns (in addition to the Frenzy icon).  However, wolf monsters are still slowing me.  Thus, it appears that currently Frenzy give stun immunity instead of slow + snare immunity.

 

 

 

the first thing you do is 2 chracter builds

 

This is another issue with melee builds.  Melee classes, more than any other, have to pick between PvE or PvP build.  This isn't to say other classes don't have some skills which are clearly one or the other (e.g., Miasma) but Warriors seem to have a lot.

 

The five talent points lost in Adrenaline Rush and Midnight's Grasp are completely worthless in PvE.  Meanwhile, without Maelstrom and Vortex (three talent points) a Warrior is quite worthless in PvE.  A Warrior could perhaps be much better in PvP if he didn't have to devote three points to Maelstrom and Vortex.  But that would mean no dungeon runs for said Warrior (who would want to bring a War without Maelstrom?).


Edited by Doja, 10 November 2014 - 01:27.

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#18 slipknot84

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 00:11

they gave melee skills to range except they can do it from 15 yrds instead of 1.


they gave melee skills to range except they can do it from 15 yrds instead of 1.


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#19 HappyDays

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 17:37

staff should 100% post in this topic and explain what is going on and why they feel warriors should be the way they are.



#20 Zorah

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 21:52

In my opinion, Warriors /  Melee characters really need help. This game is not melee friendly at all unless you are killing mobs that are way lower level than you are. There is no reason why a warrior or templar should have to run for their lives after a couple hits. :(

 

I wont play my warrior at all anymore. :(


Edited by Zorah, 12 November 2014 - 03:14.



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