15 replies to this topic

[Doja]

You can start by reading my experience here:  http://forums.hunted...537#entry873989

 

Without a buff, the disadvantages of a low level player compared to a high level player in PvP are numerous:

 

1) Fewer Attribute Points from Leveling Up

 

2) Fewer Attribute Points from Equipment

 

3) Less Armor Rating from Equipment

 

4) Lower DPS from Weapons

 

5) Lower Gem Bonuses in Equipment (unless some player actually takes the time and resources to invest powerful gems in the armor of an alt)

 

6) Lack of use of purchased skills above the character's level

 

7) Lack of use of talents, including certain skills, above the character's level (above his number of talent points)

 

EDIT: (8) Lack of use of better food and potion buffs.

 

Now, there are bonuses that lower level characters get:

 

1) 150 HP per level below 45

 

2) 50 Armor per level below 45

 

3) 12 DPS per level below 45

 

Comments

The first question is what is the ideal goal?  Obviously, a low level player should not be stronger than a pimped out high level character.  But if you're going to include them in the same PvP competitions, then the low levels need a buff in order to encourage them to enter.  Right now, that buff is far too low.

 

In comparing the above lists, there are clearly things missing that aren't accounted for.  A low level has no access to more skills or talents than he has unlocked (note: I agree it should be this way).  He's also way short on attribute points.  While to some extent this can be made up for in DPS and HP, the attribute bonuses of haste, dodge, accuracy, and critical are all unaccounted for.

 

I'm not going to do serious math as to how much the bonuses for being below level 45 offset, but my level 19 mage has less DPS (with the bonuses) than my level 45 tank (think about that for a moment).  And my actual experience was worse.  When attacking mages, I did virtually no damage - perhaps in part because their sorcery gives spell dodge but I'm not given an accuracy buff to make up for that.

 

Final Analysis:  Low level characters lack the necessary skills and talents to really interact in PvP.  The only thing a low level character can really do is attack.  Whatever buffs are given, they have to be enough so that a low level character can deal damage to strong opponents.  Let the low level have the highest DPS there which the skilled players can offset with their skills and talents.  That might be a bit over the top, but the point is simple.  No low level is going to do PvP if his attacks don't hurt the enemies.  There's very little options he has due to lack of talents and skills for a build, so he has to be buffed enough to hurt even the strongest players in the game.  Otherwise, you may as well exclude low levels from PvP or create staggered PvP tiers where only certain level ranges can enter.

Edited by Doja, 19 June 2014 - 16:08.

[Kijjum]

There have been numerous suggestions about making 2 available builds, 1 for PvP, 1 for PvE. This I feel is a must for the game. The PvP build should be level 45 on any level character, so that they have access to the same amount of talents and attributes. However, leveling and questing are a very important part of the game that deserve to be played. So as an incentive to low level players, I think they should not get access to the higher level gear without leveling up to earn it. Same goes for gems. 

 

create staggered PvP tiers where only certain level ranges can enter.

I also like this idea, however the community is too small for this at the moment. You're lucky if you get a few games a day how things are. But later on, this would be great. The only thing that needs to be taken into account is that powerful players who make alts specifically to rule these lower ranges will give them their excess gems. So there should be a cap on the highest gem allowed, and have that increase with the max level of acceptable players.

[awollsd]

i'ld repeat what I've suggested (as it hasn't been declined or confirmed)

 

when a player enters pvp they are given attribute and talent points (temporarily) they would get the amount remaining from their level to the level cap. they would have time to set these atrib/talents. upon leaving the pvp zone (either Trappers or pvp arena's) they would lose them temporary points.

 

they would leave the current normalization in to make up for gear differences. (maybe adjust it some if needed)

 

they would also make it possible to "save" so when you entered you'ld have the option to load what you set the points in instead of having to re-set them every time.

 

 

that would be the best way there isn't the  population needed to support tiered pvp and with this it wouldn't be needed.

[xpwaste]

If someone who started playing 2 days ago, comes into trappers and beats me[playing since months] just cuz he had some silly buffs.

 

It would frustrate me.

[Ceois]

If someone who started playing 2 days ago, comes into trappers and beats me[playing since months] just cuz he had some silly buffs.

 

It would frustrate me.

If that would happen than maybe you should take some time and reflect on things

[HuMoR]

I can see the frustration from both sides,but I'm not sure I fully agree with this. Not tooting any horn,but my lvl 27 kills 45s just fine but it is also a hybrid sinrangertank..I think pure lower classes kind of sway a bit away from higher dps in pvp. So maybe back to the idea of buffing single main speced classes.

[hussey]

I have been saying this Since when i Was lvl 25  

 

Best way which is balanced is promoting a player to lvl 45 in pvp . Giving them attribute + talent points . 

 

Or Stll better way is giving all players 2 builds - one for pve and one for pvp . This can be unlocked say for some ep too . 

 

So players can switch between those 2 . Or While in pvp Automatically they get promoted to pvp build that they built .

 

This would make many more guys to pvp .

 

But for balance dont give the players skills because many players have bought skills that can be used only in pvp . + there should be an incentive to lvl up for pvp .

[xpwaste]

If that would happen than maybe you should take some time and reflect on things

Yeah would be a good time to quit.

After all , all that ep,time,money would become a waste.

[Doja]

If someone who started playing 2 days ago, comes into trappers and beats me[playing since months] just cuz he had some silly buffs.

 

It would frustrate me.

 

This is a valid point.  If lower level players are buffed too much, it can make a high level throw up his arms in disgust.  A few quick comments though.

 

- High level PvP players are in a bit of a bind on this.  On the one hand, it can be frustrating if a low level player is buffed too much.  But if a low level player isn't buffed enough, then they won't join PvP.  So what's worse?  Having extreme difficulty getting PvP games or perhaps getting killed by a low level?

 

- Trapper's Atoll is more of an independent gathering place.  Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but this post was really aimed at 4 vs. 4 PvP queue.  There's no reason that the same buff needs to be given in TA that is given in 4 vs. 4 PvP.  I wouldn't mind if TA has zero buff. 

 

- In PvP, if a low level joins, his team is counting on him to be able to contribute.  He doesn't need to be so buffed that he can kill a speced high level 1 on 1.  He just needs to be buffed enough so that he can do enough damage to finish an injured player or simply help his team in general. 

[Doja]

I can see the frustration from both sides,but I'm not sure I fully agree with this. Not tooting any horn,but my lvl 27 kills 45s just fine but it is also a hybrid sinrangertank..I think pure lower classes kind of sway a bit away from higher dps in pvp. So maybe back to the idea of buffing single main speced classes.

 

What this really touches on is the ability of a high level player who knows what he's doing to create an overpowered alternate character.  That's certainly something that needs to be considered.

 

But again, most lower level players don't have builds like this.  Most don't have full sets and have a mismatch of armor.  The question at the heart of all of this is: Do we want to encourage these players to compete in PvP so that more games are played?

 

Last night, there was a PvP game (that I did not participate in).  I could tell it was over because on world chat various people were saying "good game."  Then there was one player who said, "Man, I suck at PvP."  I inspected him.  Not surprisingly, he was level 11 with unimpressive gear.  You think he's going to queue again for PvP?  Probably not until he's level 45 with speced gear, if he plays that long.

 

But an important thing to take from this post by Guthix is that the method for buffing low level players needs to be carefully considered as a mid-level player with access to level 25 skills and with a decent amount of talent points might become overpowered too quickly.

[Doja]

Best way which is balanced is promoting a player to lvl 45 in pvp . Giving them attribute + talent points . 

 

Or Stll better way is giving all players 2 builds - one for pve and one for pvp .

 

Attribute Points:  Many games give attribute points.  This would allow increasing haste, dodge, and critical as well as damage.  One minor concern is the time it would take to click in 400 attribute points one at a time.  Another is that this does nothing to help bridge the gap from the differences in things listed above: numbers 2-5, 8.  A low level would still get completely blown out of the water in my estimation, at least if this replaced the current buff.

 

Talent Points:  Giving a low level talent points certainly removes that disadvantage.  But now assume you're a level 14 player who hasn't yet examined all the various skills and combinations.  You join a PvP match and are suddenly expected to place numerous talent points.  The time it takes that player to look, examine, and choose could take some time.  I actually think this is the gap that shouldn't be bridged.  The high levels should have their talents and skills, the low level should have high DPS.

 

Two Builds:  This is clearly a MAJOR fix.  This would massively bump PvP population because level 45s like myself would actually join with our alternate builds.  An issue would still exist as to giving low levels the fun of PvP, but the issue of PvP population would be solved.  But how long will it take to implement? 

 

My suggestion in this thread isn't designed to be a long term solution, more of a short term fix.  Very quickly a developer could change the values of the buffs.  Based in part on Guthix's post, perhaps their should be tiered buffs.  The further you are below level 45, the greater buff you get per level.  As a player gets higher they get more skills and better equipment and need less of a buff per level.

Edited by Doja, 19 June 2014 - 16:21.

[xpwaste]

- Trapper's Atoll is more of an independent gathering place.  Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but this post was really aimed at 4 vs. 4 PvP queue.  There's no reason that the same buff needs to be given in TA that is given in 4 vs. 4 PvP.  I wouldn't mind if TA has zero buff

Then it's okay.

[EJK]

I've noticed that mages are best with the reinforcement buff as they got incinerate that does 150% spell dps. The essence doesn't get any buff, so normal attack won't help so much compared to incinerate. So maybe everyone would get armor and weapons equal to fabled? Would that devalue fabled? The armor and weapons would need to be on the ground, wall, table or at least on some sort of place where people could choose what armor they want. Same with food and potions. The armor, weapons, food and potions would all be with lvl 1 requirement, but be equal to lvl 45 stuff. The missing talent points and attributes would be paid with the reinforcement buff. 

 

I like the 'different tiers for each ten levels' idea very much, but sadly we don't got that amount of population. (Lvl 1-10 would be excluded because PvP battlegrounds got a level requirement of 10)

[awollsd]

Attribute Points:  Many games give attribute points.  This would allow increasing haste, dodge, and critical as well as damage.  One minor concern is the time it would take to click in 400 attribute points one at a time.  Another is that this does nothing to help bridge the gap from the differences in things listed above: numbers 2-5, 8.  A low level would still get completely blown out of the water in my estimation, at least if this replaced the current buff.

 

Talent Points:  Giving a low level talent points certainly removes that disadvantage.  But now assume you're a level 14 player who hasn't yet examined all the various skills and combinations.  You join a PvP match and are suddenly expected to place numerous talent points.  The time it takes that player to look, examine, and choose could take some time.  I actually think this is the gap that shouldn't be bridged.  The high levels should have their talents and skills, the low level should have high DPS.

 

Two Builds:  This is clearly a MAJOR fix.  This would massively bump PvP population because level 45s like myself would actually join with our alternate builds.  An issue would still exist as to giving low levels the fun of PvP, but the issue of PvP population would be solved.  But how long will it take to implement? 

 

 

two builds does little to balance low level players by itself. sure they can put their points in pvp talents but they have few points still..

 

 

about the temporary atributes and abilities taking long to set.  if you had the ability to save the set up then it would only take them time the first time. also they could choose to not save and try verious builds (temporarily) and learn the skills and find what they thought was best for them

 

idk if HCS would like that but it would essentialy give lower players a free respec (if they chose not to save) each time they entered pvp zones allowing them to learn to play their class better for when they did get to cap.

[awollsd]

P.S. off topic. but i was told to talk to you about purchasing sorc food and elixer's  idk the values but i have like 50-60g think i could get that much worth? haha. might take me a min to get on and get it as i'm house sitting and can't get in game from my aunt's house. but i may from time to time come back home to jump on.

[Neon]

Jesus, no. 

 

PvP in any game is a reflect or skill/gear/items. It is not about low levels being on par with higher levels.

 

The best possible thing they could do is create level restrictions for fighting (bad unless done right) or level brackets for qued pvp (Not enough players).

 

The game already requires 0 skill to do anything, it doesn't need low levels 1v1ing a much higher level because of some buffs.