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#1 Anakiro

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:22

Hey guys!

 

As you've probably noticed, we made a major overhaul to talents this update. We're aware a lot of our changes might not be perfect. We've tried to make small steps rather than sweeping changes where we can, so some values may still need adjustments. Our goal was give you guys better class balance as well as trying to make the lesser-used abilities more appealing to use in your rotations.

 

When we were deciding what we needed to change, we spent a lot of time consulting your opinions here on the forums as well as a bunch of in-game data we had collected about how often certain abilities were being used. It's now time to call upon your experience again, brave adventurers!

 

Could we get some opinions on the latest talent changes? Was there anything we missed? Something we didn't quite change enough? Let us know!

 

I've quoted the changes below from the update thread.

 

Mage

 

Boiling Blood
  • Duration now 6 seconds.
  • Cooldown now 10 seconds.
  • Damage increased to 25% per tick.
Boiling Point
  • Damage increase to 20% / 40% per tick.
Ignite
  • Damage increased to 250%.
  • Ignite causes a high amount of threat.
Incinerate
  • Damage reduced to 150%.
Void Portal
  • Improved pet survivability.
  • The summon now has an attack that generates a high amount of threat.
Scald
  • Chance of stun increase to 10% / 20%.
Fountain of Mana
  • Increases maximum mana by 5/10% and effectiveness of mana consumables by 10/20%.
Essence of Magic
  • Increases damage of your Ranged Attack ability when you have an essence equipped by 5/10% and restores 0.5/1% of your total mana on hit.
Mathemagical
  • Accuracy gained per level increase to 5%.

Ranger

 

Blazing Arrow

  • Damage increased to 125%.

Napalm

  • Damage increased to 25% / 50% / 75%.

Call of the Wild

  • Improved pet survivability.
  • The summon now has an attack that generates a high amount of threat.

Black Fang

  • Damage increased to 145%.

Dexterous

  • Also now adds Melee Haste.

Steady Aim

  • Accuracy gained per level increased to 5%.

Prophet

 

Radiance

  • Increased stun to 2 seconds.
  • Cool down reduced to 30 seconds.
  • Damage on this ability has been removed.

Serenity

  • Now only removes 1 negative status effect.
  • Cool down increase to 35 seconds.

Soothsaying

  • Now only adds 1 additional effect removal to 'Serenity'.
  • Added reduction to 'Serenity' cool down by 15 / 30 seconds.

Body and Soul

  • Increased the Mana Regeneration amount to 40%.

Beacon of Light

  • Now stacks up to 3 times.

Relentless Magics

  • No longer affects spells accuracy.

Assassin

 

Bloodbath

  • Cool down reduced to 4 seconds.

Rupture

  • Damage increased to 20%.
  • Duration reduced to 10 seconds.
Dual-Wield Mastery
  • Now adds Ranged Attack Power.

Sleight of Hand

  • Now adds Ranged Critical

Endurance

  • Now increases mana regeneration by 20/40%.

Expertise

  • Accuracy gained per level increase to 5% and weapon restriction removed.

Warrior

 

Bane

  • Cool down reduced to 10 seconds.

Sear

  • Damage increased to 20%.

Unburdened

  • Chance reduced to 1 / 2 / 3%.

Offensive Stance

  • While in offensive stance your armor value is now reduced by 5%.

Heavy Handed

  • No longer has any weapon restrictions.

Templar

 

Righteous Defense

  • Damage reduction reduced to 25%
  • Cool down increased to 25 seconds.

Impale

  • Increase to Threat.

Defensive Stance

  • Armor bonus decreased to 10%.
  • While in defensive stance your damage is now reduced by 10%.

Bathe In Blood

  • Reduces the cooldown of your Bloodbath ability by 2/3/4s.


#2 Majjer

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:29

i like the possibility of creating "bloodbath master" combining bloodbath talents of all melee trees (T+W+A)

:)


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#3 Mongo

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 10:49

Just tested Offensive Stance, before I buffed myself I had 1440 Armor, after buff I had 1097 Armor... is this correct? It is more than a 5 % reduction


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#4 KeS

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 13:27

With all this threat generating from the mage, now I can put phase walking to the test.


The world is cruel...as will I....


#5 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 14:56

Well. Seems like you did pay some attention to these talent discussions, but still the "whyshouldwetakethatguy" issue is not resolved. Yes rangers and mages got the boost, the boost for PVP and PVE. Being a healer and considering the new 'mana planning' i still wont like any of em in  party, because the 'manaspent' does not pay off the risks. We have fragile dual wielding rangers with great damage output, still fragile mages with good damage output, still loosing to more 'stable' warriors and assasins. As a responsible healer i prefer to deal with 5-7 hit assasins and warriors more than 3-5 hit mages and rangers. Its not me being assholish or whatever - just maths and mechanics. What actually changed is PVP balance, and dungeons are even more unaccessable for mentioned above classes now. 

There were suggestions about adding CLASS EFFETS on bosses, making all classes wanted and needed in dungeon.

The perfect team is still heal, tank, assasin. Warrior is so-so, if played wisely, others are a burden.

The idea is that you can experiment with talents for ages but it wont effect the Dungeon teamup. Some dungeon class bonuses are needed to exclude solowing as well.

Hope i am wrong and some nice stable RANGER|MAGE hybrids will appear soon resolving curent situation.

 

As for Prophet - changes are awful. I hoped seeing some PVE boost, since leveling and questing is as terrible as Templars, or even more terrible. Still Prophet is NEEDED in every dungeon. Should a good healer charge people for his service, compensating these hours spent farming some 20,30,40 50 quest items from 200 creeps putting em down 1 by one really slowly? Perhaps there is a point in some compensation. Sorry, just feelings.... Getting down to buisness:

Prophet Needs a massive Damage talent just to speed up some farming, or a damage dealing pet, perhaps a "loose all aggro" spell to save him in dungeon if tank is noobish and escape creeps aggro in PVE.

Most wise prophets use shield. Loosing healing power but gaining mana and defenses because if prophet is down - everybody is down  then. There must be any SHIELD bonus for em, not usable by mages though, - somewhere on lower levels of talent tree. The bonus is to compensate the loss of healing, boost mana regen, defence, ect.

 

PS

If you are interested in info about useless skills here it is:

http://forums.hunted...showtopic=58503


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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#6 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 15:33

Envenom MUCH overpowered.

 

1) Instant cast

2) 420 % DPS - 84x5 sec.

3) 10 sec cooldown

Compared to any close comparable DOT:

 

Boiling blood

1) 2 seconds cast!

2) 390% DPS 65x 6 seconds.

3) 10 sec cooldown

 

Lets see overall efficiency not paying attention to interskill time loss:

50% standart lvl 40 haste makes both mage and ranger cast their DOTS continuosly, BUT

 

Envenom's instant cast makes it greatly overpovered.

Lets look at simple model

 

Envenom

Cast - 5 sec DOT - cast - 5 sec dot - cast...

 

Boiling blood

2 sec cast -6 sec dot -2 sec cast -6 sec DOT...

 

As a result we have

84% DPS per second with Envenom (420\5)

48,75 DPS per second with Boiling blood (390\8)

 

Next comes battle mechanics: Instant cast is a few times more efficient that 2 sec cast when it comes to PVP\DUNGEON.

Mages mosly DO NOT USE boiling blood at all even with its new Damage increase... in PVP its just suicidal, spending 2 scs on such a skill.

 

Possible solution:

- Instant cast for Boiling blood

-2 sec cast for Envenom


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 26 September 2013 - 15:40.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#7 Irradiated

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 17:23

Speaking from the viewpoint of a ranger who needs more mana, I believe the nerf went to far on 'fountain of mana'.  The amount of gain is almost pointless.  Better to just kill things faster and brew more potions.

 

Perhaps a compromise.  Say 15/30% for the increase?

 

Envenom MUCH overpowered.

Speaking in terms of PvE, I strongly disagree.  They are approaching an excellent balance and this would throw it off.  BB is for the initial pull and for boss fights.

 

But even in PvP, you can't look at just the one spell.  Envenom is a prime spell for the ranger, not so bloodbath and mage.  We can't go down the route of homogenize all the classes.  I would love a cauterize type spell and some mana regen for my ranger.  And we can up the black fang dps to match incinerate.  But each class must have unique abilities, or there's no point in playing different classes.

 

What we're beginning to see is the tug of war between PvP and PvE balance issues.  I have never seen an MMO truly balance both with one set of talents and rules.  Unless you're willing to settle for boring, homogenized classes or very unbalanced classes in PvE, PvP will never truly balance.  The best you can hope to achieve is a 'rock/paper/scissors', where each class is better then some and not as good as others (which can work very well in team play).

 

If HCS truly wants to balance both, here are two methods I've seen successfully used.

1)  Special PvP talents/skills.  A specialized build with a different action bar(s) for PvP required.  But these talents can be used to change to balance for PvP without effecting PvE.

 

2)  Different rules for certain talents/skills.  The same abilities have different effects depending whether your opponent is AI or human.  Can be true for both offensive and defensive spells.

 

But all this will take time and a huge effort.  While I plan to enjoy the occasional team PvP, my vote would be to concentrate effort on completing all aspects of the PvE game as higher priority.


Edited by Irradiated, 26 September 2013 - 17:29.

Meleager, ranger

Tuor, templar (Inactive)

Deimos, mage

Thangbrand, warsin (Mostly on vacation)

Bart, ??? (bene trades)


#8 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 20:53

Envenom problem can be solved at least adding 'Chance' to attack, in other words making it a ranged attack with hit chance, applying DOT if hit is sucessful. For now its guaranteed constant 84% DPS per second. Ofcourse it is Rangers main skill :D Who would disagree with that. Since PVE\PVP hit chances differ much this addition is to apply the balance needed.

If we are to go all the way to balance, then its DPS is to be reduced by 20-30%.


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 26 September 2013 - 21:00.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#9 Maury Bund

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 22:20

I guess I'm just dumb, but I don't see a skill on the Assassin Tree that reduces Bloodbath cool down to 4 sec. Is it just automatic 4 sec reduction for players putting enough pts into the tree to be considered a part-time Assassin? Not sure I would like that.

 

PROPHET

Did not like the reduction of Incinerate as it was really the only offensive spell I can effectively use to level with as a full blown Prophet. If you are trying to balance the damage of Mages in PvP, can you look at increasing Purification %'s?

 

Lasting Supplication looks to be worthless until we can get Benediction. Maybe then it will be worth it, but you have to have 2 skill points put into it to get 1 extra tick on Rejuvenate. I would think 3/6 sec would be better. The overall heal of Benediction would not increase, just take slightly longer to accumulate.

 

Clear Your Mind has too low a percentage of activation to be any kind of worth. I tried it and was lucky when I got the 1 of 10 free buffs. Much better to put the points into Healer's Resolve, knowing you get the save, instead of just 1 point hoping for the same amount mana saved over 10 different casts.

 

Has there been ANY discussion in the office to turn Dagger Class weapons into a  Vit/Sorc/Focus set-up like Staffs but with either 50% or even 30% stats as same level/rarity staff to give Mages/Prophet some Blocking? Knives need to stay as Ranger weapons, though.

 

Warrior

Just started doing a melee class char. I am not seeing an icon attached to creatures hit with melee attacks, be it special or normal, 1 hand or 2 hand, when using the Crushing Blows skill. On Ranger's Eagle Eye, you at least see that the creep has been effected. Maybe Crushing Blow is taking effect, but it is impossible to tell without trying it out in a PvP arena.

 

Ranger

Actually tried the familiar this time for about all of 5 min. Still DON'T LIKE IT.

 

Also, do not think either of the 2 Assassin Skills are tempting enough to take. Sure, I can wield 2 knives and increase my Ranged and Focus, but I'd much prefer to keep the shield and pick another skill.



#10 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 22:40

 

Has there been ANY discussion in the office to turn Dagger Class weapons into a  Vit/Sorc/Focus set-up like Staffs but with either 50% or even 30% stats as same level/rarity staff to give Mages/Prophet some Blocking? Knives need to stay as Ranger weapons, though.

 

 

Surely an issue, - playing as Prophet in dungeon i just have to use shield to be at least not 2-3 hit fragile piece of junk. Still there is no chance to get any Sorcerry compensation via one handed weapons. A one handed scepter with mage properties surely would be nice, as well as some Shield talent at Templar to make Hybrid "moderate Paladin" (healish+a bit tankish guy ) class possible.

 

Some possible talents:

Shield of Wisdom: passive, boosts healing\Sorcerry\Spell haste when shield equiped.

Protector, applies Party buff, while shield equipped, -  +5 block\dodge

 

To let people choose a staff talent could be added - boosting the dodge\block with 2 handed weapon.


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 26 September 2013 - 22:42.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#11 livingtarget

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 13:31

Envenom is classed as "instant cast" but your next attack delay is equal to the global cooldown which is one second. So boiling blood is 1 second longer to cast technically speaking (damage applies earlier though), not a true 2 seconds. Or if you would like 2 seconds minus 0.4/0.6 depending on the ranged weapon used to apply the dot.

 

Envenom is 80 x 3 seconds. With 2 talents points it turns into 84 x 5 = 420

 

Boiling blood is 25 x 6 seconds. With 2 talent points it turns into 65 x 6 = 390

 

This is fairly close already. I mean it does have the longer cast time. Some spells are just going to be a little better. Thus I wouldn't say it's overly broken, maybe it could do with some increased cooldown in comparison to boiling blood but spells don't have to be carbon copies.



#12 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 13:48

Its more about Envenom PVP abuse. 

 

I ll galdly show it to you on next PVP with DEVs :)  

 

Still 420\6 is 70

and

390\7 is  55,7

not mentioning tactical 2 sec cast issues, as you know, if being up to some pvp , are suicidal. 

 

Considering most rangers are for assasin tree and 15% dodge, lets be honest :)

Mages get a HUUUUGE disadvantage if not using shield, giving no compensations so far.


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 27 September 2013 - 13:59.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#13 livingtarget

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 13:52

I guess I'm just dumb, but I don't see a skill on the Assassin Tree that reduces Bloodbath cool down to 4 sec. Is it just automatic 4 sec reduction for players putting enough pts into the tree to be considered a part-time Assassin? Not sure I would like that.

 

The cool down was reduced by 4 seconds for everyone, just an error in the patch notes.

 

PROPHET

 

We can have a serious look at prophet when we next do more wide scale balance changes.

 

Warrior

Just started doing a melee class char. I am not seeing an icon attached to creatures hit with melee attacks, be it special or normal, 1 hand or 2 hand, when using the Crushing Blows skill. On Ranger's Eagle Eye, you at least see that the creep has been effected. Maybe Crushing Blow is taking effect, but it is impossible to tell without trying it out in a PvP arena.

 

That was a bug it should have been displaying, it was always applying it though.

 

Ranger

Actually tried the familiar this time for about all of 5 min. Still DON'T LIKE IT.

 

What do you not like about it does it just die too quickly, not enough damage or cooldown too long? And did you spec into the familiar buffs when you tried this?



#14 Bryn

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 19:21

PROPHET

Did not like the reduction of Incinerate as it was really the only offensive spell I can effectively use to level with as a full blown Prophet. If you are trying to balance the damage of Mages in PvP, can you look at increasing Purification %'s?

 

Lasting Supplication looks to be worthless until we can get Benediction. Maybe then it will be worth it, but you have to have 2 skill points put into it to get 1 extra tick on Rejuvenate. I would think 3/6 sec would be better. The overall heal of Benediction would not increase, just take slightly longer to accumulate.

 

Clear Your Mind has too low a percentage of activation to be any kind of worth. I tried it and was lucky when I got the 1 of 10 free buffs. Much better to put the points into Healer's Resolve, knowing you get the save, instead of just 1 point hoping for the same amount mana saved over 10 different casts.

 

Has there been ANY discussion in the office to turn Dagger Class weapons into a  Vit/Sorc/Focus set-up like Staffs but with either 50% or even 30% stats as same level/rarity staff to give Mages/Prophet some Blocking? Knives need to stay as Ranger weapons, though.

Have to agree that the Incinerate reduction really hurts the Prophet.  The decrease can be offset by starting with Boiling Blood, but the cast time is killer.  It is time consuming enough to level up a Prophet without adding additional cast time.  A talent that negates the cast time in the middle of the Prophet tree might work.

 

 

Surely an issue, - playing as Prophet in dungeon i just have to use shield to be at least not 2-3 hit fragile piece of junk. Still there is no chance to get any Sorcerry compensation via one handed weapons. A one handed scepter with mage properties surely would be nice, as well as some Shield talent at Templar to make Hybrid "moderate Paladin" (healish+a bit tankish guy ) class possible.

 

Some possible talents:

Shield of Wisdom: passive, boosts healing\Sorcerry\Spell haste when shield equiped.

Protector, applies Party buff, while shield equipped, -  +5 block\dodge

 

To let people choose a staff talent could be added - boosting the dodge\block with 2 handed weapon.

Adding one-handed scepters or a talent that adds blocking to staffs are great ideas! 


Bryn -  Prophet - lvl 45

Ullr -   Ranger -   lvl 32

Thud - Warrior - lvl 16

Payn -  Templar - lvl 16

Jinx -  Mage -      lvl 10

__________________________________________________________________________________

Foraging - 45 | Farming - 45 | Prospecting - 45 | Forestry - 45 | Skinning - 34 | Fishing - 45 | Crystal - 45

Alchemy - 45 | Cooking - 45 | Tailoring - 9 | Leather - 9


#15 Lokoss

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 21:53

i see ppl says prophet is hard to level on his own. and that is good. in a MMO environment prophet is healer/buffer/support class that should never level alone. i dont understand why you insist in making him a DD.


Lokiza 


#16 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 22:22

i see ppl says prophet is hard to level on his own. and that is good. in a MMO environment prophet is healer/buffer/support class that should never level alone. i dont understand why you insist in making him a DD.

Well if you read some recent 1-2 weeks discussions - you'll find out that most of comunity completeley denies group play in ideological terms, game seem to be strongly individual in its basic idea. Until there is possibility to soloquest ppl mostly do not wish any grouping at all.

 

Strange and Obivious at the same time.

There is no group XP farming due to  overquesting XP.

So its like natural.

 

There is no need to group if you win. As you loose you look for group. PPL are winning all these jokey quests, so there is a rare chance to see groupquesting as well as a rare chance for some abstract prophet\templar to find any stable "everyday" support then it all goes live with all these thousands of players.

 

As long as it keeps that way - all classes are to have BALANCED\SAME PVE options, as well as PVP ones.

 

Considering mentioned above, i'd even give prophet some 500% DPS MASS DAMAGE spells at least  :)   


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 28 September 2013 - 22:33.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#17 Bryn

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 23:46

The community plays the game the way it is is designed with lots of individual quests and content, some group instances.  Neither good, nor bad, just the way it is...


Bryn -  Prophet - lvl 45

Ullr -   Ranger -   lvl 32

Thud - Warrior - lvl 16

Payn -  Templar - lvl 16

Jinx -  Mage -      lvl 10

__________________________________________________________________________________

Foraging - 45 | Farming - 45 | Prospecting - 45 | Forestry - 45 | Skinning - 34 | Fishing - 45 | Crystal - 45

Alchemy - 45 | Cooking - 45 | Tailoring - 9 | Leather - 9


#18 grimnok

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 15:12

There is a fundamental issue here.  Prophets/Tanks aren't really needed until group dungeons are being farmed, and honestly, I see no reason to farm group dungeons until you get to end of content.  There is little reason to farm Temple of the 3 when you get to 35, when you can instead spend several hours, and just level up to 40 and beyond. 

 

The group dungeon mechanic simply isn't important to character enhancement (unless you're trying to remain at a particular level for some reason) until the end of content, whatever that happens to be.

 

I would dread leveling up a Prophet.  Instead, I would more than likely, level up using a Mage, as that's clearly (in my opinion), one of the best classes for clearing regular content, then respec to Prophet for end-game.



#19 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 16:06

I suggest some DEBUFF for prophet, - serenity is almost not used at all. Let it better be a PVP skill taking ALL\SOME buffs from target\group of targets.


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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#20 hussey

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 16:09

At preset despair scroll is bought under prophet from the combat trainer , but there is a talent breakdown in mage tree that has improvement for the despair skill .


PLAYING     ONLY     FOR     PVP ! ! !



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