51 replies to this topic

[Gutie]

I don't see a single argument not to make it more like arena and have it come down to actual skill and slugging it out vs each other..... you know, kind of like pvp used to be? I've yet to see a single rebuttal of any substance beyond "Oh go play arena then bro" or "go buy the potions yourself"

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't making it work as close as possible to the older style pvp what pvp ladder was basically SUPPOSED TO REPLICATE? I thought that was the whole point of creating ladder in the first place. Composing potions and buffs over 175 have no place in that if you're trying to imitate the old style pvp system with ladder. 

 

I remember that quest to get to a certain pvp rating back in the day in 2009, and found that fun. No massive buffs/potions/etc needed. Just going.... hmm can my stats beat that? Then rolling with it. That was a lot more fun and interesting that pvp is now. The whole ability to slam someone offline while you go like 10x the stats is laughably no skill.

 

Not knocking the cows, as a stamina based system ties one's hands in how you can have it work, but more that people are actually defending this system, rather than taking a step back and seeing that this isn't working, and is a major reason why players seem to not really care for pvp much in this game at all or how many partake in it/get involved. It's basically turned into who can keep me buffed around the clock 24/7 better. I don't think that was what people who enjoyed the old pvp system were looking for, and might also explain why people who get into the game rarely take interest in pvp. 

 

If the intent of ladder was to imitate older style pvp, and that's what you want out of ladder and HCS thinks that is what it is supposed to be, then the composing stuff and flashy other epic potions shouldn't be involved in that. I don't see what is so awful about a direct slug it out pvp system closer to the older style pvp. 

 

I don't see any reason how this is bad other than for people who don't want to do their research on good setups. If anything someone can make a guide on the wiki if they think it's so terrible people would have to do some research like people do on top equipment in other mmos.

 

 

Furthermore, no one has addressed points #7, #8, and #9.

 

All of which are viable things to look at regardless of the rest of what I stated ever being implemented.....which were not brought up in that mentioned thread. Of course some people are too lazy to read a post before commenting on it as if they know the content of it, lmao.

[Filletminion]

Actually nothing has ever changed buffs are still the same ,just require more time to calculate their effects.

 

Given the cows did things this way makes me ask why they did..and the Answer I keep getting is to change it up, this update has led to some who can pvp safely now for the first time ever that will change in time as more reach high levels.

 

The Game skill never existed other than knowing what Buffs do individually and in use with others ( not always the same) also the order they fire in. A lot of players never spend time learning setups or buffs they just load up and hope against players who plan and know cause and effect through the entire system even in some cases down to enhancement activation rates.

 

And also there are some pretty potent pots available as rewards from the pvp ladder should we also do away with these because xyz does not have them?

 

There should be no guaranteed level floor everyone had the opportunity to Compose as others have and used if you want to be level spend the time and gold or find a traveller.

Edited by zizzwyly, 14 February 2016 - 09:27.

[Lsrpm]

Why dont we just remove gear then,make it a true slug fest. Barebones, fists only. We can all run around naked.

 

In all seriousness though. The same way you guys feel about composing pots is the same way I feel about gear for PvP. I can make the same exact argument you guys are making about these pots on the ladder. PvP is hard to balance as it is right now and I honestly believe nullifying pots/composing pots on the ladder wont help revive the dead PvP.

 

And to go on about you 7,8,9 posts

 

7- Pretty cool change..Harder to tell what stats your opponent has with cloak

 

8,9- Yes but no..It can be abused even if you limit but then that would be preventing more people who want to pvp in the guild

Edited by Lsrpm, 14 February 2016 - 09:56.

[yotwehc]

Why not try various versions via ladder events? This way nothing is permanent and the success/failure can be gauged. Would stink if HCS invested a lot of resources only having to retract everything (ala seasons).

The vocal few seem to think they know the magic formula to make the game huge again but they don't.

Other suggestions have failed as well. Wasn't new ladder rewards suppose to revive the ladder? Seems no? Anyway good luck with this. Perhaps I should try ladder since everyone thinks lvl 60 composers will do well but I am getting my tookus handed to me by players a thousand levels below me

[Windbattle]

I would be against point 7 only actually. You would be flying completely blind into hitting your opponent then. If you have no idea of what gear they have equipped (except reasonable guessing / prior experience), no idea on their stat totals, AND no idea on stat bonuses ... then its not skill at that point to me. 

 

You had some good ideas Gutie but point 7 goes too far for me. This is coming from a guy with Silver Dominance and Silver Smasher medal (earned mainly in ladders).

[Windbattle]

And also there are some pretty potent pots available as rewards from the pvp ladder should we also do away with these because xyz does not have them?

 

There should be no guaranteed level floor everyone had the opportunity to Compose as others have and used if you want to be level spend the time and gold or find a traveller.

 

I knew at least a few people were going to have this type of reaction to a change in pvp ladder. Lets break some myths down shall we ...

 

1) PvP ladder chests / buffs have NEVER BEEN MORE POWERFUL than they are now. For a reward that is awesome .. but in terms of logistics with some players having farmed 1000's of tokens PRIOR to these new rewards its DEVASTATING. I know several people that are currently trying to get domiance medals / compete in the ladder and are getting beat badly cause of these super long duration potions. FIX: Consider reducing duration of potions (with brew master and pride its very easy to have long duration anyways). We don't need buffs to last longer than a pvp ladder.

 

2) Composing shouldn't be a WIN button for every aspect of the game. Let me repeat this ... Composing shouldn't be a WIN button for every aspect of the game. Is it reasonably available for all guilds to have level 60 composers? HELL NO. Travelling composers are expensive and the rewards from ladder simply are not good enough to offset that cost + buffing up yourself / buying buffs + buying other pots to compete ... and lets not forget stamina for hitting. 

 

Areas of the game where composing gives you a HUGE Leg up:

1) Frag Farming - Access to high AM and Lady Luck

2) Global Events - Access to high AM, CON, and Global Booster

3) Leveling - Access to high CON, AL, Stalker, SH, Cord Att, Buff Enhancer, etc

4) Titan Hunting - Access to high CON, SH, Cord Att

5) GvGing - too many to bother listing

 

I'm sure there is more areas of the game that got heavily impacted by composing but I think you get the point.

 

***One area of the game shouldn't dominate all others. That by definition would be a heavily unbalanced system. I think we can all agree on that.

 

***Composing has nothing to do with pvp ladders and shouldn't have any business in there. Ladders are hard enough with multiple targets changing gears and buffs with cloak on to be messing around with ungodly high buff levels. 

 

 

Final Note: I personally would not do additional ladders with the current system until I have access to these super buffs cause your fighting an uphill battle. Cows have always stated that they were about inclusion of all players but that is a laughable statement when you allow overpowered buffs to be used in the ladder. It does exactly the opposite of that ... it EXCLUDES people from ever attempting doing ladder. 

Edited by Windbattle, 14 February 2016 - 19:49.

[EpicPiety]

That's being generous too wind...Way more

[Windbattle]

Composing allowed noobs to make some FSP and got rid of some useless gear. It had its benefits but if they come out with level 70 ... I will lose my mind if it effects existing skills in composing. If they want to add some new composing only skills, go for it. 
 
Activity is WAY down overall for this game and pvp ladder / pvping is close to, if not at, its lowest point ever in the game. I remember seeing 10-30 people easily in the ladder at any bracket at any given time of year in 2009-2011. Maybe 1 or 2 brackets have that kind of participating still ... even after more rewards were added to pvp ladder. I remember seeing 5-20 incoming gvgs every week into my guild. I would be lucky to see 2-3 in a month now. Used to be 1 page or more of RP items selling ... your lucky to see 1 listing of each RP item now. Do I need to give more examples? I hope not.
 
If you guys are happy with pvp activity numbers becoming terrible like that then I don't know what to tell you. I personally find that to be a failure, BUT its not impossible to turn it around.
 
A well thought out overhaul of the system to avoid abuses and focus on strategic use of current / future sets without a super reliance on overpowered buffs is the future of pvp in this game. 
 
This is what the OP had in mind.

Edited by BigGrim, 15 February 2016 - 11:44.
No swearing please.

[EpicPiety]

SH 625 and KE 625! Awesome on my road to 1 million damage and attack...

[j3k]

I knew at least a few people were going to have this type of reaction to a change in pvp ladder. Lets break some myths down shall we ...
 
1) PvP ladder chests / buffs have NEVER BEEN MORE POWERFUL than they are now. For a reward that is awesome .. but in terms of logistics with some players having farmed 1000's of tokens PRIOR to these new rewards its DEVASTATING. I know several people that are currently trying to get domiance medals / compete in the ladder and are getting beat badly cause of these super long duration potions. FIX: Consider reducing duration of potions (with brew master and pride its very easy to have long duration anyways). We don't need buffs to last longer than a pvp ladder.
 
2) Composing shouldn't be a WIN button for every aspect of the game. Let me repeat this ... Composing shouldn't be a WIN button for every aspect of the game. Is it reasonably available for all guilds to have level 60 composers? HELL NO. Travelling composers are expensive and the rewards from ladder simply are not good enough to offset that cost + buffing up yourself / buying buffs + buying other pots to compete ... and lets not forget stamina for hitting. 
 
Areas of the game where composing gives you a HUGE Leg up:
1) Frag Farming - Access to high AM and Lady Luck
2) Global Events - Access to high AM, CON, and Global Booster
3) Leveling - Access to high CON, AL, Stalker, SH, Cord Att, Buff Enhancer, etc
4) Titan Hunting - Access to high CON, SH, Cord Att
5) GvGing - too many to bother listing
 
I'm sure there is more areas of the game that got heavily impacted by composing but I think you get the point.
 
***One area of the game shouldn't dominate all others. That by definition would be a heavily unbalanced system. I think we can all agree on that.
 
***Composing has nothing to do with pvp ladders and shouldn't have any business in there. Ladders are hard enough with multiple targets changing gears and buffs with cloak on to be messing around with ungodly high buff levels. 
 
 
Final Note: I personally would not do additional ladders with the current system until I have access to these super buffs cause your fighting an uphill battle. Cows have always stated that they were about inclusion of all players but that is a laughable statement when you allow overpowered buffs to be used in the ladder. It does exactly the opposite of that ... it EXCLUDES people from ever attempting doing ladder.

Not even going to lie, I never even knew that the ladder had such chest until i had to PM people on how they had Epic craft lasting days because i had a feeling that wasn't from composing since max mins is 300.
 
I agree with that statement about composing not being a easy win button since composing can be done infinitely times as EP has stated and not done once like the donation pots.
 
The ones marked in red i'm going to have to disagree with you wind. With high AM/CON/ Global booster it helps the community get a higher chance  to ruby. Composing does give an edge on titan hunting but IMO I find it that it can help out titan hunters going against a titan with crazy high stats. as for leveling I do like having the high stalker buff which in turn gives me more EXP.
Other than i agree that composing has impacting the game  heavily
 
 
 
 

Composing allowed noobs to make some FSP and got rid of some useless gear. It had its benefits but if they come out with level 70 ... I will lose my mind if it effects existing skills in composing. If they want to add some new composing only skills, go for it. 
 
Activity is WAY down overall for this game and pvp ladder / pvping is close to, if not at, its lowest point ever in the game. I remember seeing 10-30 people easily in the ladder at any bracket at any given time of year in 2009-2011. Maybe 1 or 2 brackets have that kind of participating still ... even after more rewards were added to pvp ladder. I remember seeing 5-20 incoming gvgs every week into my guild. I would be lucky to see 2-3 in a month now. 
 
If you guys are happy with pvp activity numbers becoming terrible like that then I don't know what to tell you. I personally find that to be a failure, BUT its not impossible to turn it around.
 
A well thought out overhaul of the system to avoid abuses and focus on strategic use of current / future sets without a super reliance on overpowered buffs is the future of pvp in this game. 
 
This is what the OP had in mind.

if i see more OP PVP pots in composing ill most likely never return to the ladder [IMO]
 

There should be no guaranteed level floor everyone had the opportunity to Compose as others have and used if you want to be level spend the time and gold or find a traveller.

Not everyone has the FSP to buy from a traveler and not every one has time to make such advances to become level 60 composer

[j3k]

7) As part of this update the stat bonuses for Attack/def/armor/damage/hp no longer show up on other people's profiles, you can only see it on your own profiles. Period. Stamina bonus still would appear however.

8) People in the same guild can hit each other on ladder. LONG overdue.

9) Maximum percentage of people in the same guild on a ladder at 50%. This is a thing for Arena, why isn't it for ladder?

 

for #7 would be interesting "if" it ever happened   [Imo cloak should of hide all of the stats including bonus].

#8 I agree as it gives a player Z who is in the same guild with player Y one less target to attack which doesn't help if you want to #1 as  player X who doesn't have anyone in their guild in the same ladder now has more targets over player Z having one less target.

#9 I agree, when i was a lower level i saw the EOC ladders filled with 4-7 players from the same guild essentially boosting their dominance medal when they're on the #1 spot and just farming the tokens for doing absolutely    NOTHING.

 

 

Furthermore, no one has addressed points #7, #8, and #9.

 

All of which are viable things to look at regardless of the rest of what I stated ever being implemented.....which were not brought up in that mentioned thread. Of course some people are too lazy to read a post before commenting on it as if they know the content of it, lmao.

Edited by j3k, 14 February 2016 - 20:24.

[kitobas]

SH 625 and KE 625! Awesome on my road to 1 million damage and attack...

I knowing you making joke but with composing updates keeping it becoming reality, this really crazy