Toreth

TL;DR: Send the trials with the caveat of increasing the level ranges as part of the trial. This is a fix to the structural portion of how GvGs are done; rewards come after the structural part is fixed. Current Epics from GvG Rewards: 25% of them are upgraded; other upgrades still pending. Opt-out is terrible - notification system allows for Unbreakable casts to assist in the ONLY negative of gear damage.

 

While I certainly don't envy HCG for having to come in here and sift through the posts, trying to decipher what's legitimate and what's an "I want," I do hope they can see the dichotomy of the players in the community in regards to this aspect. What's a little surprising is the fact the HCG has come out and said "this is a trial," which has been met with disdainful comments of "No. Terrible. That's not going to work. That's no good." when the proposed quality of life changes haven't even been attempted yet. HCG has finally come down after how long to breathe some life in an absolutely dead aspect of the game?

 

Obviously I agree and support what's been proposed being the original, original poster that Arioche linked to, but there's a reason each of those were brought up initially:

 

• Reducing Offline Time for Targets: This is to help prevent farming completely AFK players. Someone is much more likely to show up online if they've been AFK for ~24+ hours when compared to ~6+ days. Traditionally, once someone hits that ~48 hour mark, the chances of them logging back in for any reason drastically decreases.

 

• Expand Level Ranges: This was proposed to go hand-in-hand with the Reduction in Offline Time for Targets as well as provide more overall target opportunities in dead ranges not at the very low or very high end of content where players are crowded. This is one I would strongly urge HCG to do in conjunction with the Reduction in Offline Timer during the trial as doing the former without this limits options for players.

 

• Notification System: Also should be self-explanatory; nobody likes to be hit while they're AFK and not know about it. Imagine you're going to be pelted for 25 hits and there's an option ahead of time to give you notice to, at the bare minimum, buff up with Unbreakable. Now you've saved yourself gold. Without the notification and time for prep? No time for anything - have fun with that bill. And all of this is for the casual - those who want the hard core will only utilize it for much higher potential.

 

Everyone keeps touching on rewards, but they fail to address the core issue of GvG being a "I wanna farm AFK players who are unprotected." These would assist in doing that. Until the core is repaired, at least some, then the reward structure will do nothing but become stagnant rather quickly even if things are introduced.

 

"I want new items and new epics." Sure, but have those who've asked for such things taken note of the Epics that are currently in the process of being upgraded? Only 5/21 (or 5/20 if omitting Cobalt Rune due to low level) have been upgraded so far. That's 25% or less of the way done on those upgrades, but they are coming. BG said it was going to take a little while as it has to be done in phases. The impatience and desire for instant gratification is going to run this into the ground before it even has a chance to take off.

 

Others have tossed out other ideas around as well; some with merit (Structure for the notifications), others without (“Let me just disengage from GvG altogether”). There are also some that would require more substance from HCG, which also isn’t feasible:  BG Overhaul Quote.png   8.13KB   11 downloads

 

The seasons idea was brought up in the Original that Arioche linked to that had favorable HCG response:  BG GvG Ladder Response.png   3.96KB   6 downloads

 

But, if the core function of GvG isn’t patched first, then the GvG ladder system will be just what it is now - “farm AFK players and race to 1st; then, park until the reset.” These ideas up for trial are the initial steps into injecting a competitive nature back into FS. GvG (and PvP, but that’s a separate topic), are meant to be competitive in some regard, but there’s nothing to appease those who want a challenge.

@BigGrim and @Arioche,

Is this still on the radar, by chance? I don't want to probe too much, but FS would still benefit a great deal from this update.

You are only talking about weapons here, that is bias data. Most people would say disable for weapons, there isn't much of an issue with non weapons. Weapons only speak for 1/9ths of the epics and they tell a much different story.

If not allowing COA/COD, then how about tuning invigorate. I'm going to use some random numbers here to explain.

Invigorate = 200% bonus 1 epic
Invigorate = 100% bonus 2 epic
invigorate = 30% bonus 9 epics

In this case it may allow for invigorate to scale well enough with wearing a filler epic and not make a full set of 9 overpowered.

Using a weapon isn't biased data at all. I'm going to guess you believe I was using a value for an Enchant Weapon potion in the calculations, however, you'd be incorrect. Enchant Weapon was set at level 203, just like any other buff level that wasn't available via composing.

 

Provide the data for the other 8/9ths of the picture and compare. It's a different story.

Since you asked nicely, the other eight slots were completed as well. I have requoted the parameters, however, sets had to change based on the slots used, so the sets are annotated next to each set of data. There's a TL;DR towards the bottom of the data.

 

Buffs Used: Armor Boost, Coordinated Attack, Coordinated Defense, Defensive Aura, Keen Edge, Layered Armor, Shield Wall, Smashing Hammer, Invigorate, Epic Forge, Epic Craft, Fortitude, Constitution, Sanctuary, Anchored, Chi Strike, Cursed Ring, Cursed Rune, Enchant Armor, Enchant Shield, Enchant Weapon, Iron Fist, Aura of Protection, Berserk, Evade, Fortify, Fury, Great Vigor, Rage, and Rock Skin.

(For Buffs with a Composing Equivalent, the Distilled Composing Value was Used for Those Values)

 

Also Included: Battle Totem 10, Health Shrine 20, Armory 10, Weaponsmith 10, Sharpening Stone 20, Guard Tower 15, Artificier 15, War Shrine 25, Healing Tent 10, and Relic Bonuses @ 10% For All Stats

 

Gloves: Periwinkle, Daemonic Reindeer, Poison Chomper, and Emperor Hydra Set with The Hunted Cow Gauntlets

• 203's No COA - 403,503 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 443,581 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 573,072 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 686,181 (~20%)

Helm: Periwinkle, Daemonic Reindeer, Sullivan and Pistos Sets with The Hunted Cow Crown

• 203's No COA - 406,813 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 447,246 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 572,511 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 685,563 (~20%)

Amulet: Monarch, Parfs, Vile White, and Chimeric Sets with The Hunted Cow Sigil

• 203's No COA - 374,684 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 411,932 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 538,155 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 644,431 (~20%)

Boots: Monarch, Parfs, Vile White, Chlodwigs Sets with The Hunted Cow Sabatons

• 203's No COA - 380,542 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 418,363 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 546,899 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 654,894 (~20%)

Ring: Parfs, Stalkers, Chancellors, and Pollen Sets with Woogle Ring (Project Stats Used Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Attack; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)

• 203's No COA - 374,558 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 411,868 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 537,209 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 643,461 (~20%)

Armor: Chancellors, Stalker, Pollen, and Poison Chomper Sets with Egg Shell Armor (Projected Stats Used Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Damage; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)

• 203's No COA - 367,654 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 404,279 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 530,605 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 635,547 (~20%)

Shield: Vile White, Periwinkle, Chlodwigs, and Stone Chomper Sets with Glob Encrusted Shield (Projected Stats Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Defense; 2/3 Armor @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)

• 203's No COA - 373,385 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 410,579 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 523,861 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 627,470 (~20%)

Rune: Daemonic Reindeer, Daemonic Santork, Periwinkle, and Pistos Sets with Cranks Loathsome Rune (Projected Stats Post Reprisal @ 1/3 Damage; 2/3 Defense @ 4.55 Stat Points Per Level Like the Hunted Cow Items)

• 203's No COA - 413,752 Total Stat Points; 203's COA - 454,971 Total Stat Points (~10%)
• Composing No COA - 580,953 Total Stat Points; Composing COA - 695,862 (~20%)

 

As you can see and as now shown, all nine slots have disparity of ~10% using only level 203 Buffs and ~20% as Composing Buff Levels are introduced proving the growing disparity as buff levels get higher. What you're referring to above about weapons holds even more true when we start referencing level 1500+ buffs. If we're already at ~20% disparity with ONLY Composed Potions being introduced, introducing Global Event and Donation Chest buffs into the equation throws the disparity much higher. I'll reiterate once again, COORDINATED BUFFS SHOULD NOT WORK WITH EPICS.

 

TL;DR: You're wrong.

 

The way I see it is making Epics do not disrupt CoA/D is just really a problem for PvP... It'll increase interest for hunting, of course, if you have a good hunting setup where the loose 9th piece fits with an Epic that gives relevant stats (damage mostly), then yeah, it's useful for hunting...But we already have enough damage and attack to one hit anything without a thought, so what difference would it really do? Just increase the interest and market demand, which I think it's the point of new Epics to start with.

But now, for PvP, would the stats of a setup with 4 sets + 1 Epic really be that different from a setup with 4 sets + 1 legendary/Unique/Crystal? I don't think it would be for level 3000+, but for lower levels Epics are waaaay too strong and that might be a problem.

On that note, I dislike the idea of just cancelling it to Weapons and make it would for the rest of Epics, it has to be simple and straightforward, that would create too much confusion.

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All those questions might change once the Epics get reworked with the new formula, so I think we should just leave it for now, and come back to this subject once we have an idea of what the improved Epics gonna look like, better than having to revert that decision in the future.

 

Hey Yghor! I'd be willing to run some math around the difference in filler options for specific sets if wanted for PvP purposes in comparing Epics to Legendary, Crystalline, etc. There are other variables to take into account when doing something like this, though, as there isn't that "one size fits all" type set for PvP like there generally is for hunting.

Before we finalize considering the inclusion of Coordinated Buffs in with Epics, let's take a look at some stats, first, and the potential disparity it would cause, shall we?

 

For the stats listed below, the Periwinkle Purple, Daemonic Santork, Silicathus' Sandy, and the Poison Chomper Sets were used with the Greater Flamedeer Antlers for all math. Included buffs list is at the bottom.

 

~Current Flamedeer Antler Stats

• Buff Level 203's (Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 432,071 Total Stat Points
• Buff Level 203's (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 392,927 Total Stat Points

- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points

 

• Composing Potions Only (Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 658,583 Total Stat Points
• Composing Potions Only (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 549,833 Total Stat Points

- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points

 

 

 

~Projected Revised Flamedeer Antlers Stats @ 4.55 Stat Points/Level (Post Craft/Forge) at 67%/33% Def/Dam

• Buff Level 203's (Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 460,715 Total Stat Points
• Buff Level 203's (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 418,974 Total Stat Points

- Difference: ~10% Total Stat points

 

• Composing Potions Only (Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 701,026 Total Stat Points
• Composing Potions Only (Not Including Coordinated Buffs)
  • 585,262 Total Stat Points

- Difference: ~20% Total Stat Points

 

 

As we can see by the two data sets, the change in the potential datasets show an equal 10% and 20% disparity between both sets depending on whether Coordinated Buffs are allowed to work with the set or not. 10% may not seem like too much of an issue at the base level using 203 buffs, however, with as often as composed potions are used, we can see that using composed potions widens the disparity between the two data sets. The kicker? The gap will continue getting wider as you pile higher level buffs on top of each other due to the way the buff stacking works.

 

When a single buff level goes up, the disparity inches a little higher, eventually coming to a peak if a person were to use the best epic potions available. There are other ways to give the "icing on the cake" to epics, but allowing them to work with Coordinated buffs SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. It would be an outright powercreep to what's available now.

 

Buffs Used: Armor Boost, Coordinated Attack, Coordinated Defense, Defensive Aura, Keen Edge, Layered Armor, Shield Wall, Smashing Hammer, Invigorate, Epic Forge, Epic Craft, Fortitude, Constitution, Sanctuary, Anchored, Chi Strike, Cursed Ring, Cursed Rune, Enchant Armor, Enchant Shield, Enchant Weapon, Iron Fist, Aura of Protection, Berserk, Evade, Fortify, Fury, Great Vigor, Rage, and Rock Skin.

(For Buffs with a Composing Equivalent, the Distilled Composing Value was Used for Those Values)

 

Also Included: Battle Totem 10, Health Shrine 20, Armory 10, Weaponsmith 10, Sharpening Stone 20, Guard Tower 15, Artificier 15, War Shrine 25, Healing Tent 10, and Relic Bonuses @ 10% For All Stats

Has HCS ever considered allowing coordinated attack/defense (buffs like that) to be used when equipped with hunted cow items, but not giving a "set" bonus for wearing the items?

So they can be used as filler pieces in PvP, great idea.

I have been asking for that to happen for every Epic, for a long time now haha

To not count towards CoA/D, but to not disrupt it either.

Then Epics could be used as the loose 9th piece in a huge variety of setups.

 

This is an absolutely terrible idea for the game's balance. I understand the desire to "feel more powerful" with the stats, however, it's evidenced here that the way in which the stats are compounded isn't common knowledge. I could go through the math to show why this would be bad, but to save everyone the trouble, there are two pulled "context" quotes that summarize the idea, anyway.

 

 

...at a time where people claim they want more challenge...

 

...a guild that's against power creep.

 

Again, these ideas for allowing Coordinated Buffs to work with Epics is bad. There's a reason there is criteria listed on the Coordinated Buffs, and, again, with the rebalance of Epics coming to fruition, allowing a change of this magnitute would only cause a greater imbalance in the game.