347 replies to this topic

[uncola]

At this point just implement anything. This forum topic isn't making any progress, so why don't we beta test something in a completely different server or something ( I dont know this stuff works with the servers and such). Have a poll in the front page of fallen sword like the ones back when, when we got a little reserve stam for voting. Was it like 25 stam, I forget. Make a new medal, everyone loves medals. Base it on how much xp was gained or what ever. New items used with the same ladder tokens people have, people should still have some of those. Maybe even a new global that involves the pvp xp thing. Each tier increases with pvp xp exchanged. We need a forum topic that is all about ideas in improving the game not invoking anger onto others. I just want to play a game on my pass time. I don't know how coding works, I'm sure its easy and something can be whipped up fast and start from there. I want to go to sleep at night thinking about the progress we made as a community, not the consent badgering and name calling that is going on. It saddens me to see player whom play the same game hate each other so much. I don't cry but i do feel depressed and a sincerely wish someone productive can happen that will change the game in such a positive way everyone can prosper. 

[999531]

I thought PvP was fine before prestige and ladder... GvG was the best pvp addition after the original game play. Too many features have caused conflicts.

[avvakum]

Why XP loss is important has been answered many pages ago. When you progress through the game more and more difficult creatures and other players are making it challenging by taking your XP. This is a competitive game and other players have 2 options to compete with you - level up faster or slow down your progression by taking XP. Like in any other game if you can't go through a level, you can't go through the level - go back to a previous level. It used to be when the creatures in the realms were taking XP and slowed down progression with 2-3 hitting, but levelers complained to no end and threatened to leave the game (1-hitting is fun, 2-3 hitting is too slow, I leave), so practically they've got their "no XP loss from the creatures in the realms". Now they want no XP loss at all. Where is a progressive challenge? HCS are lucky that they have active PvP'ers to make progression challenging - there are games where players are hired to increase "intelligence" of creatures. The games are there to have you progress through levels increasingly choked with obstacles, all while a sadistic AI (or other players in FS case) mocks your efforts and encourages you to push the big red "GIVE UP" button. People are programmed to fight or to flee. The "flee" type will always be asking for a comfortable progression without any challenge and will flee anyway no matter how they will be helped, please listen to the "fight" type players and keep them in the game.  

[Calista]

We've already tried a version of 'safer pvp' and 'rating'  It was called the PvP Ladder and Prestige. Those didn't work so well. Why are we contemplating taking pvp out of the game to basically turn it into what has already failed?

 

PvP has to have a risk. There has to be consequences or else what is the point? I guarantee no one has lost 5 levels on the bb without having taken the risk of hitting someone first. The players complaining about being deleveled on 10 stam hits are prestige hitters demanding safe passage on their hits, 99% of the time. The people screaming 'bully' are guilty of trash talking, pvp'ing players themselves, threatening wars and retaliation, only to realize later they bit off more then they can chew so they run to HCS expecting protection, even though they have a plethora of options on how to save their xp. (including not hitting another player and leaving themselves open to the risk they don't want to take) 

 

Every time a change is made to water down pvp, it fails. Taking the xp loss out of pvp is about as extreme as the watering down can get. Just leave it alone already.

[DeathToll]

Think of what removing XP loss from PvP would do...

-PvPers would leave the game, and, let's face it, the game has already experienced a huge decline in players in the past year and a half (I mentioned the past year and a half because that's how long I've been playing), with less members being online at the same time every day, if PvPers start to leave Fallen Sword would become almost as dead as SS2 in the next 3 years max.

-The Bounty Board would be useless, because most levellers (emphasizing MOST, not all), bounty their oppressors because they take away XP form them, not because they take gold away from t hem, I mean, let's face it, if XP loss is removed, what's the point of a leveller placing a bounty on the PvPer, it will only cost him/her more money...

Before you jump to conclusions, you must put yourself in the shoes of EVERY type of person out there, and think of the after effect of this new idea...

[HappyDays]

So I am basically getting from this thread, boiled down ......... is .............. everything about pvp is useless........ it was people I attack and them loosing xp that is truly what pvp was about all along and the true reason I attack people. Well then if that is the case. The foundations of pvp have been very poor indeed or you all need to evalutate your true intentions behind attacking. To feel better about harming someone ?? Some of the posts in this thread are literally ..... wow ...... reading and not in a good way.

 

Also how can BigGrim answer that statement, cripler. It is literally grasping at straws. O the xp is now like blood you know and I need my share to make me feel good about my gaming experience. Also the blood letting will be replaced with new rewards etc.

[Removed18058]

So I am basically getting from this thread, boiled down ......... is .............. everything about pvp is useless........ it was people I attack and them loosing xp that is truly what pvp was about all along and the true reason I attack people. Well then if that is the case. The foundations of pvp have been very poor indeed or you all need to evalutate your true intentions behind attacking. To feel better about harming someone ?? Some of the posts in this thread are literally ..... wow ...... reading and not in a good way.

 

Also how can BigGrim answer that statement, cripler. It is literally grasping at straws. O the xp is now like blood you know and I need my share to make me feel good about my gaming experience. Also the blood letting will be replaced with new rewards etc.

 

blood is an visual effect

 

give them a visual effect wich can resemble that will satisfy their needs of causing harm to some1 else

 

cut off a finger pull out some hairs

 

take pvp exp

 

^^

[clock96]

If I am hit on the BB with a 100 stamina hit and I lose 20 million XP.  What is the value a PvPer  receives from that?

You just said "on board" which means you did attack someone so you loose XP, we all do

[BigGrim]

Removing XP loss will ruin everything.

No, it really won't.
 

Listen to PvPers this time.

I have been. And as I have stated many times, there has not been ONE good reason that XP Loss is important, beyond the desire to punish players, which is NOT what PvP is about. It ought to be about showing that you are a better PvPer. PvPXP will do that much better without negatively impact other players game play experience.

 

Cuz its how PvP works?

 

Sorry but that is a complete non answer. Losing XP Loss will not kill the game. Adding PvPXP will allow all PvPers to get their pound of flesh, showing their abilities in PvP. It'll allow them progress to their medal, allow them to earn prizes, progress to a Top Rated and (as many Levelers have actually said) get more people trying PvP.

 

Win/Win.

 

Stuff.

 

None of which explains why you should have the right to negatively impact other players game. None of it.

 

Regarding prizes, like I said, I'll open a thread to discuss new PvP exclusive prizes.

 

Inventing is ruining MY gaming experience as much as you are claiming that PvP is ruining others.

 

Using absurd nonsense does not strengthen your argument, sorry.

 

Why do others who don't participate in PvP want to continue to change it?

 

Because it negatively effects their playing experience. Plenty are saying they'd partake with the new PvPXP idea.

 

Big Grim, I have thought long and hard, and felt I should give you my answer as to why XP loss is so important to me.  It's like spilled blood... I mean we're robbing folks  here with swords and knives and spears.  There will be bloodshed.   The XP is that spilled blood.  It doesn't even need to be that much, only a token amount would do.... but if you must take that source of blood away,please  replace it with a new source of bloodshed, else they will all seem to be empty victories indeed....

 

And everything you talk about would be covered by the PvPXP idea being discussed.

 

Why are we contemplating taking pvp out of the game to basically turn it into what has already failed?

 

We're not taking PvP out of the game, just changing an abused feature and changing it so that you have to take PvPXP. Simple as that. PvP will still exist and still provide the thrill of combat. You just won't be able to abuse people.

 

 

 

Finally, there's been some off topic, hyperbolic and outright abusive posts removed. If we see more of those, those players will have their forum privileges revoked. Try to be civil.

[avvakum]

One game story:

 

 

"Originally, there were very few artificial restrictions on how players could interact, and the developers intentionally provided mechanisms for both attacking and stealing from other players. Most types of fraud and other indirect means for creating an advantage via the exploitation of other players were also not restricted, with the exception of when bugs were involved.

 

Some players saw a "punch in the nose factor" involved, as players were able to harm other players directly with little penalty, which allowed too much griefing. Others saw it as creating a more complex atmosphere where unpredictable and challenging situations could occur spontaneously between players, but expressed concern over the barrier to entry for new players and the seeming imbalance which favored anti-social behavior.

 

Gradual shifts in game mechanics and introductions of new systems took place. The developers initially added a system whereby the server categorizes criminals and murderers from the innocent in the form of differently shaded character and name highlighting (blue for innocent, gray for criminals, and red for murderers) on mouse-over. This, however, was not without its problems—many criminal acts could be accidentally performed while trying to do something otherwise legal, and the unfortunate player who suddenly became "gray" would most often be killed by NPCs or other players right away, regardless of the reason behind the criminal status. Players who killed others only because of their status and without regard for reason were often called "noto-PKs" since, at first, the notoriety statistic determined this status—these players, too, were often called griefers. Later, the developers altered an existing feature commonly known as "stat loss" which decreased skills and stats. Before the change, upon death any player could opt to instantly resurrect with penalties, or become a ghost, after which they could be resurrected by a player or healer NPC with no associated penalties. Faced with the option of losing hundreds of hours of character progression or spending a few minutes as a ghost, most chose the latter. Resurrecting with stat loss was rarely ever done. The notoriety change caused any players who had reached "murderer" status incur stat loss even if they became a ghost, if they resurrected within a certain period of time after their offense. Each offense added an additional 8 hours to the period that the player had to wait in game before resurrecting. Stat loss was very controversial and was often cited by PvP minded players as an sign that the developers were siding with players who favored the opposite style of gameplay. Eventually the developers created a separate, mirror world, called Trammel, where only mutually consented PvP and theft could occur, within or between player guilds that were in a state of war with each other. Criticized as going too far in the opposite direction, some players cited the introduction as the downfall of the XXX tradition of interesting and complex behavior, stating that the server-enforced laws were often too simplified to be appropriate in many situations and did more to harm the long-term health of the game world than it did to help it. Even players who enjoyed open world PvP found that they could not compete economically with a parallel world that faced no such challenges. In Trammel, without the threat of unexpected player interactions, the yield of an hour spent gathering resources could be calculated before even leaving town. Almost all player activity moved to Trammel, and the old world (given the name Felucca) became practically abandoned. Most subsequent MMOs have followed the example of Trammel, and do not allow non-consensual PvP or theft (if there is a mechanism for theft at all).

 

In those subsequent MMOs that have allowed consented or non-consensual player combat, usually the items that may be taken from a player's corpse are limited (in some cases nothing may be taken). XXX originally had no such distinction and all items a player had at the time of death stayed with the corpse, and every item was removable by anyone. This gave an incentive to PK because it was more lucrative to kill and rob other players than a monster. An average troll may have yielded 200 or 300 gold. However, a player would often yield a full suit of armor, magic items, and consumables (e.g. potions, magic components, bandages, etc.) plus whatever gold he or she may have collected from fighting. Although the risk was much higher, successful player killers could make ten times more than what they would fighting monsters.

 

Some still question the methods used to deal with the griefer issue. Raph Koster has said:

 

Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight "pretend evil" than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that."

[Removed18058]

Some players saw a "punch in the nose factor" involved, as players were able to harm other players directly with little penalty, which allowed too much griefing. Others saw it as creating a more complex atmosphere where unpredictable and challenging situations could occur spontaneously between players, but expressed concern over the barrier to entry for new players and the seeming imbalance which favored anti-social behavior.

 

 

we're trying to keep the more complex atmosphere and get rid of the griefing.

 

and the pvp exp theft wouldn't be griefing since it's to show your position on the pvp ladder.

 

the best would be on top with most points the weaker will be on the bottom of the list.

 

 

Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight "pretend evil" than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that."

 

however with the implementation of a ladder system people still get to be heroes by shining on top of the list it would be very challenging because people will have to outplay every other pvp player be undefeated battle as much as possible and so on and so on

 

 

the difference between the game you quote would be the fact that both parties entering in pvp would be online however in fallen sword only one side has to be online

 

and if you go online get buffed up then there's no challenge when you hit somebody who is offline.

 

so don't compare these games please they are very different

[Removed18058]

now then people were talking about punishing people well this can be done with the pvp exp that can be taken away from someone on the board. in the end if you land on the board and you have a nice amount of it it's probably really rough to get all that hard work taken away from you.

 

in the end of the day players who didn't want to pvp will get hit and might give a friendly tap back this may lead towards more and more taps to the point where they might even like pvp and start caring about their pvp exp. (thus a new pvp'er has been born) with the new system  you get a free trial pass into pvp and when you like it you will start paying with your pvp exp.

 

the current system however isn't very appealing since you have to pay bigtime with your precious exp and if you don't like it you end up with nothing but exp loss.

 

so in the end of the day i do actually think that the pvp will get more active with these new updates.

 

it will be slightly different indeed.

 

but it would be more appealing for people to start pvp'ing and keep on pvp'ing

 

 

 

so i still don't get it you guys want more people to start pvp'ing and we're figuring a way to get more people to pvp however you guys don't want to do a change that will get more people to pvp and claim that it would kill pvp but figuring from earlier threads and posts about pvp pvp would be dying already. This would be a solution so please start thinking about the possibilities aswell.

[Calista]

We're not taking PvP out of the game, just changing an abused feature and changing it so that you have to take PvPXP. Simple as that. PvP will still exist and still provide the thrill of combat. You just won't be able to abuse people.

 

 

Okay, let me re-word it then. Why are we 'changing' pvp to a alter version of the ladder/prestige system that even you admit has been a failure? Calling it by a different name doesn't change the fact we already know it will fail, by experience.

[avvakum]

the difference between the game you quote would be the fact that both parties entering in pvp would be online however in fallen sword only one side has to be online

 

and if you go online get buffed up then there's no challenge when you hit somebody who is offline.

 

so don't compare these games please they are very different

I am not comparing the games, I am aware that these are different, however, some things are the same because both games are/were played by human beings. It's always good to look around first and learn from others' experiences. 

 

The possible change to FS game, some people are so exciting about now, is based on SO MANY assumptions of how people will react to it. It's a huge risk and a lot of work. Show me the money/effort ratio. 

[Removed18058]

Okay, let me re-word it then. Why are we 'changing' pvp to a alter version of the ladder/prestige system that even you admit has been a failure? Calling it by a different name doesn't change the fact we already know it will fail, by experience.

 

in the end of the day players who didn't want to pvp will get hit and might give a friendly tap back this may lead towards more and more taps to the point where they might even like pvp and start caring about their pvp exp. (thus a new pvp'er has been born) with the new system  you get a free trial pass into pvp and when you like it you will start paying with your pvp exp.

the current system however isn't very appealing since you have to pay bigtime with your precious exp and if you don't like it you end up with nothing but exp loss.

so in the end of the day i do actually think that the pvp will get more active with these new updates.

 

it will be slightly different indeed.

but it would be more appealing for people to start pvp'ing and keep on pvp'ing

 

 

 

 

reading is key

[BigGrim]

It'll work because there's no opt-in. Gold hits will remain. But you won't be able to pound people into the dirt for imagined slights. You'll be able to show you're actually good at PvP.

[Removed18058]

I am not comparing the games, I am aware that these are different, however, some things are the same because both games are/were played by human beings. It's always good to look around first and learn from others' experiences. 

 

The possible change to FS game, some people are so exciting about now, is based on SO MANY assumptions of how people will react to it. It's a huge risk and a lot of work. Show me the money/effort ratio. 

 

 

but the fact that it will kill the game is also based upon assumptions.

 

 

and as i stated before only the griefing part is being taken away all the rest remains there. so they did watch other games i guess to get to a good concept. 

 

it is indeed risky but doing nothing is also risky so doing nothing could have killed it and doing something might kill it but might also fix it.

 

so it's worth the risk of changing it imo.

[Nikita90]

the only thing I've read in the last few pages is several well written out responses by some of the oldest players of the game that not only explain why XP loss is basically a requirement for PVP, but also as to why they should be listened to. only thing I've learned unfortunately is that our opinions mean literally nothing because SOMEBODY disagrees with it. please leave PVP alone, and maybe listen to the people who play the game specifically to partake in exactly that. 

[Removed18058]

the only thing I've read in the last few pages is several well written out responses by some of the oldest players of the game that not only explain why XP loss is basically a requirement for PVP, but also as to why they should be listened to. only thing I've learned unfortunately is that our opinions mean literally nothing because SOMEBODY disagrees with it. please leave PVP alone, and maybe listen to the people who play the game specifically to partake in exactly that. 

 

thing is biggrim stated multiple times before that that xp loss causes too much trouble because people abuse this part of the game to 

 

"pound people into the dirt for imagined slights."

 

that is why they have decided that it is best to remove it.

 

we're not saying that every pvp'er does this but that there's a group who do.

 

 

and leave pvp alone? 

 

i've seen so many threads where pvp ladder, pvp and pvp related stuff  have to be fixed  so you want to keep it the way it is right now? then pvp also will die slowly also not a thing that you guys want right?

Edited by crippla, 24 September 2014 - 17:58.

[Nikita90]

you cannot pound people into the dirt unless they partake in PVP. its kinda like dating, you need two people for it to work, hence the name PLAYER VS PLAYER. 

So I am basically getting from this thread, boiled down ......... is .............. everything about pvp is useless........ it was people I attack and them loosing xp that is truly what pvp was about all along and the true reason I attack people. Well then if that is the case. The foundations of pvp have been very poor indeed or you all need to evalutate your true intentions behind attacking. To feel better about harming someone ?? Some of the posts in this thread are literally ..... wow ...... reading and not in a good way.

 

Also how can BigGrim answer that statement, cripler. It is literally grasping at straws. O the xp is now like blood you know and I need my share to make me feel good about my gaming experience. Also the blood letting will be replaced with new rewards etc.

 

 

Think of what removing XP loss from PvP would do...

-PvPers would leave the game, and, let's face it, the game has already experienced a huge decline in players in the past year and a half (I mentioned the past year and a half because that's how long I've been playing), with less members being online at the same time every day, if PvPers start to leave Fallen Sword would become almost as dead as SS2 in the next 3 years max.

-The Bounty Board would be useless, because most levellers (emphasizing MOST, not all), bounty their oppressors because they take away XP form them, not because they take gold away from t hem, I mean, let's face it, if XP loss is removed, what's the point of a leveller placing a bounty on the PvPer, it will only cost him/her more money...

Before you jump to conclusions, you must put yourself in the shoes of EVERY type of person out there, and think of the after effect of this new idea...

 

 

We've already tried a version of 'safer pvp' and 'rating'  It was called the PvP Ladder and Prestige. Those didn't work so well. Why are we contemplating taking pvp out of the game to basically turn it into what has already failed?

 

PvP has to have a risk. There has to be consequences or else what is the point? I guarantee no one has lost 5 levels on the bb without having taken the risk of hitting someone first. The players complaining about being deleveled on 10 stam hits are prestige hitters demanding safe passage on their hits, 99% of the time. The people screaming 'bully' are guilty of trash talking, pvp'ing players themselves, threatening wars and retaliation, only to realize later they bit off more then they can chew so they run to HCS expecting protection, even though they have a plethora of options on how to save their xp. (including not hitting another player and leaving themselves open to the risk they don't want to take) 

 

Every time a change is made to water down pvp, it fails. Taking the xp loss out of pvp is about as extreme as the watering down can get. Just leave it alone already.

 

 

Why XP loss is important has been answered many pages ago. When you progress through the game more and more difficult creatures and other players are making it challenging by taking your XP. This is a competitive game and other players have 2 options to compete with you - level up faster or slow down your progression by taking XP. Like in any other game if you can't go through a level, you can't go through the level - go back to a previous level. It used to be when the creatures in the realms were taking XP and slowed down progression with 2-3 hitting, but levelers complained to no end and threatened to leave the game (1-hitting is fun, 2-3 hitting is too slow, I leave), so practically they've got their "no XP loss from the creatures in the realms". Now they want no XP loss at all. Where is a progressive challenge? HCS are lucky that they have active PvP'ers to make progression challenging - there are games where players are hired to increase "intelligence" of creatures. The games are there to have you progress through levels increasingly choked with obstacles, all while a sadistic AI (or other players in FS case) mocks your efforts and encourages you to push the big red "GIVE UP" button. People are programmed to fight or to flee. The "flee" type will always be asking for a comfortable progression without any challenge and will flee anyway no matter how they will be helped, please listen to the "fight" type players and keep them in the game.  

 

 

At this point just implement anything. This forum topic isn't making any progress, so why don't we beta test something in a completely different server or something ( I dont know this stuff works with the servers and such). Have a poll in the front page of fallen sword like the ones back when, when we got a little reserve stam for voting. Was it like 25 stam, I forget. Make a new medal, everyone loves medals. Base it on how much xp was gained or what ever. New items used with the same ladder tokens people have, people should still have some of those. Maybe even a new global that involves the pvp xp thing. Each tier increases with pvp xp exchanged. We need a forum topic that is all about ideas in improving the game not invoking anger onto others. I just want to play a game on my pass time. I don't know how coding works, I'm sure its easy and something can be whipped up fast and start from there. I want to go to sleep at night thinking about the progress we made as a community, not the consent badgering and name calling that is going on. It saddens me to see player whom play the same game hate each other so much. I don't cry but i do feel depressed and a sincerely wish someone productive can happen that will change the game in such a positive way everyone can prosper. 

Every single one offers amazing examples as to why this entire thread is worthless.