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Legacy Roadmap #Revision 2


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#41 Aaron

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 15:40

You people quote others horribly. I hope this makes it clear for you skimmers too.

 

I stated that DAMAGE should NOT be boosted AT ALL.

My numbers were for a boost to EVERY OTHER STAT as an alternative, an "all rounder" crystal.

Numbers were even shown to give those percentages to ALL STATS, NONE FOR DAMAGE.

 

Now if you all could actually read it instead of glance and miss the meaning altogether, that'd be lovely.

 

Any damage boost is ridiculously unbalanced imho, "oh but people can pump armour" well duh, but that's a forced pairing instead of the flexibility this was designed to introduce.



#42 centurion

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 21:54

more I thinjk about this,    % gain should not be used and set   value should be used instead.      with 5 items,  if the stat only applies to item, then   you basically makes addons  less than desirable to upgrade.     and it limits the crystals that is most effective per each item.    by using set gain  (ie,  1point of dmg or armor,  2 point of stat and such)   it makes all 5 piece worth upgrading and allow flexiblity that we all want.  and yes s omeone  could do all 25 into dmg or armor.   but that is waht we want to see.  more variety.



#43 Nemesis

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 18:00

Yeah, I think that adding base stats might be better. Simply because it's easier to balance. Adding by % would make certain stats more desirable on certain items.



#44 HanzoRazor

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 11:30

more I thinjk about this,    % gain should not be used and set   value should be used instead.      with 5 items,  if the stat only applies to item, then   you basically makes addons  less than desirable to upgrade.     and it limits the crystals that is most effective per each item.    by using set gain  (ie,  1point of dmg or armor,  2 point of stat and such)   it makes all 5 piece worth upgrading and allow flexiblity that we all want.  and yes s omeone  could do all 25 into dmg or armor.   but that is waht we want to see.  more variety.

 

This is pretty much what I've been saying.  It eliminates the issues. Just with with the 4 zorg had,  +20 damage is substantial, but it's nowhere near the massive boost of 40%.  It doesn't really change the system that much, it's still 2-3 hits to kill.  Even leaving it at +1/crystal level for everything 20 dodge or accuracy might actually be better as it affects the entire combat, not just the one weapon.  Eliminating the percentages also makes it such that boosting armor actually does cancel out the damage should someone choose to do so, rather than a tiny boost to armor under percentages.  There's always issues, but it evens out a lot more than percentage based boosts.



#45 Aaron

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 16:55

The issue with that still being that people would be required to boost armour to counter the damage, which leads to inflexible choices - it'd be the default "best", and that's what we're trying to avoid here with the variance!

 

I'll repeat it again, there is no circumstance where boosting the damage stat is ever balanced.

If you'd care to argue this, swap down to dual swords for a week and tell me how you fare against newbie (untrained combat abilities) avas.

 

Now that is out of the way, alternatives are needed. I suggested a smaller boost to all other stats leaving an equal total, but that only works with percentages.

 

So how about one of these:

 

Fires boost HP. Plain and simple, 5 per level so it's equal to the other stats being boosted

or

Fires drain enemy crystals stats, so perfect v perfect would leave enemy with only +1 - not zero as it'd make it another stock go-to

 

Either work and are balanced...



#46 Nemesis

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 20:40

Damage is not really that overpowered. I'd be willing to switch back to crystal swords if they get an acc stat boost of + 6 or more.

 

The main reason scythes are stronger is they do around 8 more average damage than c swords while having 3 less accuracy(not accounting other stats).

 

As long as they're balanced correctly, damage and armour shouldn't really be overpowered.



#47 centurion

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 18:32

if we go with stat boost as I proposed,  damage is not overpowering.     if we do it via %, then it is.    

 

also, I like the fact that wfp is being used on the misc.      actually, I think it shiould be usable on all the items.    and rather than getting free,  purchased with wfp.  we really need extra market for wfp and this would be great way to use.



#48 Teeg

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:58

Yeah, that was a concern I came up with while designing it. I adjusted the percentages to account for the fact someone could stack say... 4 damage gems and such.

 

Maybe limit it to a max of 1 of each color gem per item then up the percentages to maybe 20% - 30% for perfect gems and such.

Yeah would be so ridiculous to have 4 of the same gem, especially 4 perfect fires. Seeing as you could kill anything in practically 1-2 hits. Limiting 1 color gem to each item is perfect. I wouldn't really recommend going up as far as 20% though. I feel that 10 - 15% would be much better, seeing as scythes would deal about over 95 min dmg and 101 max dmg with 10% dmg. And with a 15% increase it would deal 99 min dmg and 106 max damage. Which is still really strong with the 15%. That or if you stick with the 20 - 30% boost, you might as well add in health crystals then.This % drop would hopefully be for all crystals not just for damage, just using it as an example.  Also that %'s for crystals that don't directly effect items should instead effect your base stats (dodge, accuracy, m,g,p,and d.skills, etc) rather than overall stats (not including damage or armor though).  I feel that crystals will be used to greatly increase stats, when they should be only giving a small boost, like Combat Abilities. 


Edited by Teeg, 23 February 2014 - 20:02.


#49 HanzoRazor

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:48

I'll repeat it again, there is no circumstance where boosting the damage stat is ever balanced.

If you'd care to argue this, swap down to dual swords for a week and tell me how you fare against newbie (untrained combat abilities) avas.

 

Now that is out of the way, alternatives are needed. I suggested a smaller boost to all other stats leaving an equal total, but that only works with percentages.

I disagree and find that your dismissive assumption that there is no circumstance is completely unwarranted.  I find it doubly ironic that it comes from you, since your 60 point build makes any boost to the damage stat pretty pointless, let alone all of those crystals into damage. Anything more than 1 is overkill.  Maybe this makes armour the best counter for you, but I wouldn't bother for my setup.  At most I'd restat for a slightly higher hp to compensate as I could get more stats out of the armour than I would have to shift into hp to survive the same number of hits.

 

It's more your thinking that's inflexible Aaron than the system.  Dodge and accuracy boosts rather than damage could shift the odds pretty considerably.  There are people who prefer rail gun along w/ tyran weapons for the accuracy and mixed weapons, which turns to more hits/less no effect hits.

 

If it remains percentage based though, then yes, I would agree with you, since the numbers on accuracy or dodge for gear are far smaller than the numbers for damage, thus the actual numerical values are very different, and there's no way to balance damage.  If all the numbers are equal then there's far more to be said for other items.



#50 Aaron

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 16:21

It's more your thinking that's inflexible Aaron than the system.

Really?

I die in one hit now, the damage being boosted is not going to change anything towards me whatsoever, actually it will improve my chances as if people boost damage, I'm just going to have higher dodge.

 

But as you're intent blaming this stance on some perceived benefit I would gain, I'll just explain this to you as basically as I can.

 

More damage=More heal costs for enemy.

More heal costs=Less people attack you

People attacking less=Less afk deaths in WL (prioritizing easier targets)

Less afk deaths in WL=more credits saved from less heals

More credits+Less deaths=more wins via attacking as one has the credits.

 

So I repeat. ANY damage boosting is massively unbalanced.

Due to combat edge AND basic player behaviour to take the path of least resistance.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

 

-----------

 

I do enjoy the idea of only one colour gem per item, but even that is flawed.

9 crystal types, and on the standard dual scythes build, only 6 are of any actual use (as nobody will be boosting speed or an attacking skill they're not using)

 

4 slots, 6 potentials.

If armour is only boostable on armour and the attacking skill on a weapon, we're left with 5 realistic choices into 4 slots...

Very inflexible, not what this was designed for.

 

----------

 

 

 

So what now? Hard bonuses still very easy to work with - they'd behave similar to combat abilities.

 

My ideas so far:

 

All crystals>Hard bonus

Fire>Health bonus

Fire>Small bonus to all other stats

limit of 2 crystals of same colour per equip

2 limit+optional 3rd with penalty of unusable 4th.

 

 

If all give a hard bonus, and fire is either health/all others, fires get to keep their prestige as high value - they're still very useful.

 

 

The 2 crystals limit means that effectively 2 stats will need to be boosted at minimum, which at least opens up a paper/scissors/rock style system.

 

 

It'd be a lot easier to figure this out if you guys could help contribute your own ideas too, rather than just effectively agree/disagree. Like how suggestions forum works...



#51 HanzoRazor

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 17:18

Really?

I die in one hit now, the damage being boosted is not going to change anything towards me whatsoever, actually it will improve my chances as if people boost damage, I'm just going to have higher dodge.

 

But as you're intent blaming this stance on some perceived benefit I would gain, I'll just explain this to you as basically as I can.

 

More damage=More heal costs for enemy.

More heal costs=Less people attack you

People attacking less=Less afk deaths in WL (prioritizing easier targets)

Less afk deaths in WL=more credits saved from less heals

More credits+Less deaths=more wins via attacking as one has the credits.

 

So I repeat. ANY damage boosting is massively unbalanced.

Due to combat edge AND basic player behaviour to take the path of least resistance.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

 

-----------

 

I do enjoy the idea of only one colour gem per item, but even that is flawed.

9 crystal types, and on the standard dual scythes build, only 6 are of any actual use (as nobody will be boosting speed or an attacking skill they're not using)

 

4 slots, 6 potentials.

If armour is only boostable on armour and the attacking skill on a weapon, we're left with 5 realistic choices into 4 slots...

Very inflexible, not what this was designed for.

 

----------

 

 

 

So what now? Hard bonuses still very easy to work with - they'd behave similar to combat abilities.

 

My ideas so far:

 

All crystals>Hard bonus

Fire>Health bonus

Fire>Small bonus to all other stats

limit of 2 crystals of same colour per equip

2 limit+optional 3rd with penalty of unusable 4th.

 

 

If all give a hard bonus, and fire is either health/all others, fires get to keep their prestige as high value - they're still very useful.

 

 

The 2 crystals limit means that effectively 2 stats will need to be boosted at minimum, which at least opens up a paper/scissors/rock style system.

 

 

It'd be a lot easier to figure this out if you guys could help contribute your own ideas too, rather than just effectively agree/disagree. Like how suggestions forum works...

 

As for the last point, I was the one who first brought up the idea of flat bonuses on crystals if you go back and look.

 

Your statement that somehow I'm stating your anti-damage stance is somehow related to perceived benefits you would receive is self refuting.  I, in fact, used you as an example to refute your own statement that there is "no circumstance where boosting the damage stat is ever balanced."

 

What I have a problem with is you posting shoddy arguments, like that wonderful slippery slope and claiming that somehow they nullify all other positions, as if it's somehow a given that we all will somehow agree with you simply because you say it's been answered.

 

The fact is that all of these affect healing costs, accuracy means more hits, dodge means less, both affect hp costs as much as damage.  Your speculation that somehow this is going to translate to people attacking less in WL is highly questionable at best.

 

I do however agree with you on the limitations of only enhancing existing stats on items, which is why I initially proposed:

 

Crystals will grant a % increase to a stat based on their colour and state.

Shard: +1

Small: +2

Medium: +3

Large: +4

Perfect:  +5

 

Obviously, damage would only be applied to weapons, although I suppose you could put it on an amulet, since you can't actually hit anyone with an amulet it would be completely wasted.  Stat bonuses however apply to everything, so it would be conceivable that someone could have +20 accuracy tacked onto their titan.  Armour might have to be limited in application as well.

 

The other issue is that now Zorg is suggesting a 7 tier crystal system, which makes me feel your suggestion of 2 crystals/color/item is probably best, as a 28 increase to anything becomes ridiculous.



#52 Kage

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:24

I've been meaning to ask, which stats do the crystal embedding affect? Does it affect the item's stats or a player's overall stat?



#53 Neener

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:19

I've been meaning to ask, which stats do the crystal embedding affect? Does it affect the item's stats or a player's overall stat?

 

none. crystals are worthless.



#54 CroFighter

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:45

I've been meaning to ask, which stats do the crystal embedding affect? Does it affect the item's stats or a player's overall stat?

am pretty sure it's the item's stat's. that's why people wont put for sure a fire crystal(dmg) on a rift gun or rail gun ;) unless they are that dumb. :)


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#55 Neener

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 23:16

well this deescalated quickly :P



#56 Anialator

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 16:37

Only 5 months late for Crystal Removal. :|


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#57 Subzero

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 03:59

Only 5 months late for Crystal Removal. :|

 

 

I am sure someone is working on it!


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