86 replies to this topic

[murabane]

2 months? so because something takes time to do we shouldn't do it?... hate to put it like that but that's kind of how it looks, and as for confusing new players, its safe to say a lot of things in the game confuses new players. Isn't that what us mentors are and were for? to help new incoming players, fielding questions, giving advice... Maybe im just looking at those comments wrong 

[evilbry]

some food for thought. (though some examples will come from my line of work as a developer)

 

A script, by broad definition, is a mechanism to reduce keystrokes or other manual tasks.

 

some examples,

- to periodically check to see if a state has changed, think along the lines of is there more or less gold in my bank (or a nefarious version, has a titan moved it's location)

- to update or modify a value/entry, such as to perform a bank deposit. (or to move to a square with a titan on it)

- to perform a common task to reduce the time/effort involved, such as how FSH allows you to extract all of a resource (or to attack a titan with a set time delay).

 

Detecting scripts is not always going to be easy.

 

lets look at some of the ways a script can be detected.

- The script performs an action many times in a short period in a regular pattern.

- The script creates a large load (resource wise) on the system.

- The script is used excessively to the point it's obvious it's being used.

- The script is not coded well and causes regular/unique errors that can be picked up by the devs.

- The Devs get their hands on the script.

 

 

The thing is though, when a script is created, usually, the person creating it is careful. A script can have variation between actions so it's not carried out with the same time delays. It can vary actions inbetween tasks, so as not to follow the same routine each time.

It then comes down to the cows to try to determine which is human input vs which is scripted.

 

 

Can scripts be eliminated?

Not really. even moving from a browser based interface to an application, would just change the way and tools that scripters interface with the program.

 

 

What can HCS do?

Realistically they are doing more or less everything they can at the moment. The only real way to stop a script from being used, is to remove it's profit source or it's advantage.

There's been some examples of this with changes that have been done in the past. If there's nothing to be gained from running the nefarious scripts, then there's no reason to run them. Just keep in mind, that some changes may make the game a little less user friendly, to stop some of the scripts.

 

If there's some form of scripting you believe is occurring, raise a support ticket with what information you can.

 

At the end of the day, HCS is just a small indie company, who do a pretty good job for their size. Many people are used to the big behemoths in the entertainment industry who throw masses of resources and can make significant changes much quicker.

[BraveKath]

Good information Evil.

[Kildek]

The fallensword helper, whilst an approved script, can be user-modified to provide extra functionality that the "core" helper doesn't provide. As such, for those with javascript knowledge, it can - and does - offer the ability to cheat in various facets of the game.

As it is, modifying Fs-Helper is "illegal" as only the official version has been approved. Those that do not care and do it any way, will likely not be stopped by a general ban on scripts. If a modified version of FS-Helper or other scripts were easily detectable, HCS probably already would have banned those players.

Even if players are cheating this way, banning FS-Helper in my opinion would harm the game much more than any cheater ever can.

Zorg is reluctant to add the core features into the game - see http://forums.hunted...516#entry873841 for reasons - so, to combat the problem, here's a simple yes or no question.

Should the FSH be banned from the game ?

Integrating all FSH features into FS would of course be the best solution. Speed-wise for server load and convenience (no need to install plugins + script).
But looking at how HCS did integrate former FS-Helper features, for the most things turned worse. Main problem is that HCS does not simple copy the features 1:1, but re-invents them. These "integrations" lack what makes FS-Helper so great: Minimizing unnecessary clicks, speeding up repetitive tasks and fixing bad designs. All of the attempted integrations still lack features or have bugs.

Many character upgrades are not feasible without FS-Helper, like components slots or a large backpack. It just gets to tiresome to manage them.

I am getting to the point where i just hope HCS does not touch any more of FS-Helper features, so they continue to work and do not brake.

[sweetlou]

At the end of the day, HCS is just a small indie company, who do a pretty good job for their size. Many people are used to the big behemoths in the entertainment industry who throw masses of resources and can make significant changes much quicker.

There's a nutshell. So dealing with it is what I've always figured. Thanks Bry.

[EpicPiety]

Cheating this...cheating that...is that all you guys can come to a conclusion on? Maybe people are just better than other people at certain things. You also can detect abnormalities just as much if its programmed into FSH or not... It doesn't matter. FSH makes the game more user friendly and brightens it up why get rid of it?

Edited by Intimidation, 30 June 2014 - 04:36.

[Pardoux]

Cheating this...cheating that...is that all you guys can come to a conclusion on? Maybe people are just better than other people at certain things. You also can detect abnormalities just as much if its programmed into FSH or not... It doesn't matter. FSH makes the game more user friendly and brightens it up why get rid of it?

 

Some people may be saying "this is cheating" or "that is cheating" - but personally, I've provided PROOF of folk cheating with the FSH on 1 occasion and a very strong likelihood on a 2nd.

 

Please leave out the assumptions - at least on my part

[EpicPiety]

So why should FSH be banned? you can do the same thing without it? FSH is just indirectly involved its not the issue. i dont see where your going with this at all lol. The only proof i can possibly imagine you have is someone saying they do and for all anyone knows they can be kidding. Can hardly call that proof. Anyone can say something. It's fairly difficult to gather concrete proof on scripting. Even then it's iffy...

Edited by Intimidation, 30 June 2014 - 04:50.

[yotwehc]

So why should FSH be banned? you can do the same thing without it? FSH is just indirectly involved its not the issue. i dont see where your going with this at all lol. The only proof i can possibly imagine you have is someone saying they do and for all anyone knows they can be kidding. Can hardly call that proof. Anyone can say something. It's fairly difficult to gather concrete proof on scripting. Even then it's iffy...

Thou doth protest too much.

[Pardoux]

The only proof i can possibly imagine you have is someone saying they do and for all anyone knows they can be kidding. Can hardly call that proof. Anyone can say something. It's fairly difficult to gather concrete proof on scripting. Even then it's iffy...

 

Assumption, much ?

 

The proof (and yes, I mean PROOF) was enough to get the player involved a warning. Who it was and what exactly he was guilty of is between that person and the cows, and I'll not go into more details - but, suffice it to say, the PROOF was there.

 

Also, said proof wasn't from the players admission - more from his actions.

[EpicPiety]

So why should FSH be banned? you can do the same thing without it? FSH is just indirectly involved its not the issue. i dont see where your going with this at all lol.

Stop dodging the bullet ^^^...I was just merely saying that your *proof* could be nothing. Was not my point at all this was...

Edited by Intimidation, 30 June 2014 - 18:01.

[Kildek]

Assumption, much ?
 
The proof (and yes, I mean PROOF) was enough to get the player involved a warning. Who it was and what exactly he was guilty of is between that person and the cows, and I'll not go into more details - but, suffice it to say, the PROOF was there.
 
Also, said proof wasn't from the players admission - more from his actions.

As i read this, it comes down to, that there was proof of someone using a script which did some automation. It could have been any script.
Going from there to saying even FS-Helper should be banned, punishing everyone, does not seem right.
Fs-Helper is a script developed by players but controlled by HCS. Parts of it that were deemed automation have been removed, like auto-repair.
If anything, it would be better if HCS could help to get the broken FS-Helper code working again, which probably too would require much fewer resources than integrating all the features into FS.

[Davros81]

i think the idea suggested here is for the cows to implement the main features of the Helper into the main game mechanics then ban all third party scripts. Currently it is claimed that some have managed to tweak or modify the original FS Helper script to include various bonus advantages to certain aspects of the game, I am guessing Arena entries and Titan hunting. Banning the FS Helper, after the cows have implemented the features to the game directly, would help to lessen the impact of these tweaked FS Helper scripts, if they do indeed exist.

[Pardoux]

Fs-Helper is a script developed by players but controlled by HCS. Parts of it that were deemed automation have been removed, like auto-repair.
If anything, it would be better if HCS could help to get the broken FS-Helper code working again, which probably too would require much fewer resources than integrating all the features into FS.

 

FSH is a script developed by players - well, player, singular, now as I understand it

 

BUT, it is NOT controlled by HCS.

 

The FSH has a "blanket" approval for it's "released" format - but the problem is, said released format can be altered by those with sufficient knowledge of javascript to do things it wasn't either 1) designed to do and 2) approved to do.

 

Could other scripts do this ? - of course they could - but other game scripts are banned from the game (other than, as far as I am aware, auto-reload and an old, redundant one to do with map-walking?)

 

Would I prefer to see the core features built into the game ? - of course I would - but Zorg is, seemingly, against this idea.

 

Perhaps the thread should change to try to pressure him to do that ? - either way, I just want to see the amount of cheating in the game diminish ( I don't live in "rose-coloured glasses" land and expect it to be completely eradicated)

 

Is that such a bad thing ?

[Kildek]

FSH is a script developed by players - well, player, singular, now as I understand it

BUT, it is NOT controlled by HCS.

This is turning into nit-picking. You may call it what you want, but from:
http://forums.hunted...052#entry713526

If you wish to use any private scripts you must send them in to support for approval or post a link here to the public source code so we can review it.

HCS reviews the code, but does not constantly monitor it.

There is no "blanket" approval. As mentioned, HCS reviews the code and what they see unfit, gets removed. This happened as example in:
http://code.google.c.../wiki/ChangeLog
Revision 210: Removal of "kill all functionality"
Revision 380: Removal of "auto repair"
Revision 380: Removal of "one click overbid"
All of which were removed by the request of HCS.
So yes, HCS is very much in control of what is accepted in FS-Helper.

You base your whole argument on the assumption, that just because it is possible to modify FS-helper, it happens at such a large scale that is justifies the ban FS-helper completely. All that while the _only_ proof you have is that an unknown script has been used in 1 case.
That is like banning every hammer, because it has the potential to smash a window as part of a brake-in.

<snip>
either way, I just want to see the amount of cheating in the game diminish ( I don't live in "rose-coloured glasses" land and expect it to be completely eradicated)

Is that such a bad thing ?

As long as there is no easy method to detect illegal scrips, the only thing to do is point it out to HCS, like you did.
Sure, it would be nice to stop cheating. But banning FS-Helper solely on a thin assumption, is not the way to go.

[Pardoux]

There is no "blanket" approval. As mentioned, HCS reviews the code and what they see unfit, gets removed. This happened as example in:
http://code.google.c.../wiki/ChangeLog
Revision 210: Removal of "kill all functionality"
Revision 380: Removal of "auto repair"
Revision 380: Removal of "one click overbid"
All of which were removed by the request of HCS.
So yes, HCS is very much in control of what is accepted in FS-Helper.

 

The last revision to the FSH was Revision 1486 - to change an ip address to the new graphic server.

The revision prior to that, Revision 1485, was introducing Level 1600 buff support.

 

Those buffs have been out for some CONSIDERABLE time now - so I think that the cows monitoring each release and checking it for functionality (either added, altered or removed) is not likely. The revisions you are referencing are from a LONG time ago, when they were more "on top" of it.

Also, if you note, my "beef" isn't with the "stock" release of the FSH - which, in the past the cows HAVE requested changes to - it's with the modified versions that players are using.

 

Just because I've only provided PROOF of 1 player using it for means other than intended doesn't mean that others aren't doing that and haven't been caught / detected.

 

There are many accusations of folk using "personalised" versions of the FSH - I just wish the cows had the time and personnel to thoroughly investigate all the allegations and, if players are found "guilty", then they are terminated - permanently.

[Kildek]

<snip>
Just because I've only provided PROOF of 1 player using it for means other than intended doesn't mean that others aren't doing that and haven't been caught / detected.

There are many accusations of folk using "personalised" versions of the FSH - I just wish the cows had the time and personnel to thoroughly investigate all the allegations and, if players are found "guilty", then they are terminated - permanently.

This thread is about "FSH - Ban, or Not ?".
You haven not provided any proof, linking cheating directly to FS-helper.
The only proof you have is one where it could be any script. Apart from that you say there are rumours, but you do not get specific about which ones. That is too little in my opinion, in order to ban FS-Helper

[murabane]

Assumption, much ?

 

The proof (and yes, I mean PROOF) was enough to get the player involved a warning. Who it was and what exactly he was guilty of is between that person and the cows, and I'll not go into more details - but, suffice it to say, the PROOF was there.

 

Also, said proof wasn't from the players admission - more from his actions.

 

So cheating is just a warning now?...

 

But all these other "simple" non game effecting, character changing infractions are suspensions and bans? I really hope this isn't the case...

 

I really hope that said player is banned, cause in a sense a warning for voluntary cheating is just a smack on the wrist. I mean you think that is going to stop someone who had the nerve to do the stuff in the first place. I don't know the circumstances of the situation, but seriously cheating is cheating there should be no warning for doing that ever....

 

Directly from the Terms Of Use....

"You must not knowingly exploit any such bugs or cheats. Doing so puts you in breach of this Agreement and may result in termination of your account."

 

Now to me it seems like this case would fall under that...

[Crzy]

If we could get the core and major features of FSH implemented into FS, why wouldn't you guys want to ban FSH? There will be no second guessing whether someone is cheating and the game will be that much easier to police since ALL scripts will be banned. And I agree, anyone caught cheating should be permanently banned.

 

I'd even throw the Multis in with people that should be perma-banned but that's a different topic.

Edited by Crzy, 01 July 2014 - 02:39.

[Crzy]

Accidental double post.

Edited by Crzy, 01 July 2014 - 02:32.