228 replies to this topic

[Belaric]

first off...i want to say that its awesome that everyone is putting in ideas to liven up the BB!!  nice to see us all working together to make this a great game!  I found the ideas to be thoughtful and sparked good points.  Still i am one who feels that you shud be able to bounty the hunter.  For the simple risk of taking a bounty.  brings to mind killing fish in a bucket.  cant make it totally risk free.  also, for many who Bh, most will not take a bounty on a simple clear if someone else is on it.  So for player A to decide to try and quit, that bounty is passed up on since it looks as if it is being cleared..unless you see it sit for awhile then you ask...so yes A shud be bountied for quitting..hence..bounting the hunter.

 

im adding this...it is for another forum..but i dont think smasher shud count on the BB...that is my 2cents.

There is no killing fish in a bucket going up against someone who knows what they are doing on the BB. I agree with Maehdros now that a week was far too long as it is hard to be buffed and online enough for a week to survive punishment.

 

Again as I said to Maehdros - universal risk has led to this inactivity on the BB. Sometimes you have to take a chance on something new.

 

I see no reason why a quitter should be bountied. By making them quit the target has won the battle.

 

In this system if you see a bounty in progress and you know you cannot win the bounty - you can still hit and gain ticks towards the Smasher medal. So even if you won't win the bounty you as the BH do derive some benefit. Also remember the fee is not paid until the bounty is completed, so the incentive is always there to finish the bounty if you want to get paid. So all someone has to do is watch and see if the XP total to bounty completion is still dropping - much like watching a titans TKP drop to see if it is still being hunted. If the activity stops - other BH's know someone has given up/stopped (for whatever reason) and they can hit if they want to. If it is felt that too many people are stopping once they think they are past 51% of the damage required (which would not be clear - calculators required!!) - raise it to 70% to make sure you get the BH medal tick - that will motivate people not to stop.

Edited by Belaric, 04 April 2014 - 16:23.

[Belaric]

Just to clarify things (since I didn't ask this nor was it mentioned) but the bounty hunter having no fears of being bountied only applies to 10 stamina hit clears, or would 100 stamina hit clears be included as well?

Everything is included. How the bounty is cleared no longer matters - all that matters is that the damage required  as punishment by the victim is reached. The bounty hunter is never bountyable. The likelihood is 100 stams on the board would be the norm as people race to inflict enough damage to both win the bounty and get the Bounty Hunter medal tick.

 

I understand if you suddenly find this idea less appealing - LOL!

[Belaric]

Very well thought out and stated (as usual!) I personally like this idea myself and think it would be good for the game as a whole. As you stated the current system is completely broke. One thing though, in this system I believe (as much as it pains me to say so LOL) that PvP Protection should be done away with. With the "victim" being able to set the retribution then there should be no need for it. IMHO. 

I missed this one. If the system is shown to work, then I think PvP protection could go on the table to be removed. If the system is shown to work. I think everyone playing would like to avoid sudden changes to the game that agitate, annoy and drive away players. Plenty of advance warning and a trial period would be the aim of the game here. If BB activity takes off, and if the community realises that PvP activity is not the devil, and that if you want retribution it can be had and effectively, then yes, PvP protection may be able to go away.

 

And a trial run would let us see what in game practices can occur that are less than ideal. People who play here are clever and will find ways to use any system to their advantage. I accept that, but hope that the simplicity of these rules would minimise possible chicanery. I'd want to see how that shook out a little before making any further changes.

 

Remembering that this is just an idea and unlikely to ever be implemented.

[vastilos]

Everything is included. How the bounty is cleared no longer matters - all that matters is that the damage required  as punishment by the victim is reached. The bounty hunter is never bountyable. The likelihood is 100 stams on the board would be the norm as people race to inflict enough damage to both win the bounty and get the Bounty Hunter medal tick.

 

I understand if you suddenly find this idea less appealing - LOL!

 

I don't find the idea less appealing since a compromise has to be met somewhere. Now to clarify some more with this bounty hunting thing. Does everyone who takes a bounty come immune to counter bounties or just the one who finishes the bounty?

[Belaric]

Everyone. That guarantees more participants in the system.

Edited by Belaric, 04 April 2014 - 16:21.

[lapdragon]

im still on board for #1,3,4...i think if they are worth looking into more.  especially for some of us in the game that do both level n PVP, (and like to get medals also).  I dont want you to think my reference to killing fish in a bucket was in anyway making fun of it. i was just saying it would be too easy, no risk.....there shud be some risk to taking a bounty,

[Belaric]

im still on board for #1,3,4...i think if they are worth looking into more.  especially for some of us in the game that do both level n PVP, (and like to get medals also).  I dont want you to think my reference to killing fish in a bucket was in anyway making fun of it. i was just saying it would be too easy, no risk.....there shud be some risk to taking a bounty,

I understand.

 

It simply seems to me that bountying the bounty hunter is a central plank of why the BB is dead. There is limited incentive to bounty hunt currently. As I believe is evidenced by the tiny BB activity. As of this typing - ZERO on the board. People have been counter bountied into deciding to walk away. The process took years, but it seems to have happened. Protecting the BH provides incentive to try to take bounties. More bounties will be posted if people have faith that the system will work and some recompense gained for the initial hit. These two things work together to increase visible PvP activity. More people join in, more fun is had - the original PvP population gets to play their game more frequently to test and display their skill. New players get into PvP. People who do not and never want to PvP are part of the process on the BB and do not feel like outsiders anymore, and the whole argument of being 'forced into PvP' goes away - the game is more inclusive, not less. I believe everyone wins. 

 

Way back when in the game introductory blurb I seem to recall a bit about placing bounties on your enemies (in the unique PvP system). That, in addition to a few other things, has been altered over the years. PvP is a risk, the BB is supposed to represent that risk. If the BB is dead/inactive, then where has the risk gone?

[iJasonUK]

I think this is all very well said,
I agree with what you are thinking of not being able to bounty the hunters.
Thats actually my favorite part.

[lapdragon]

i do agree with you!!  the board is dead...dead...(trying so HARD not to say but...)  tho, i do notice, that when it is most active is when a party has been thrown on someone...we had 5/6 pages of bounties the other day, all (but two) were counter-bounties. alot of the time that is what keeps the board alive for a bit....till another party happens.  so i think that keeping that one aspect the same...will ONLY at times liven the board up...and yes, many probably wont hit those kinds of bounties now, but maybe with what you suggested, there might be more hits...more Bhunters, cuz the rewards would be better than the smallest amount of gold to post like now the way the current system places bounties?

[Seagull]

I find your solution to the current lack of pvp/BB activity very refreshing Belaric.  One thing I would like to suggest is that rather than a "winner takes all" system,  a system could be implemented where all bounty hunters who participate in a bounty are compensated based on their contribution percentage. This would ensure bounties are always completed fully.

 

 One way to make this viable is to restrict all bounties to gold rather than FSP (FSP would be difficult to split).  There are of course other ways to make this work but they may result in something over-complicated.

 

Your thoughts?

 

EDIT: Another advantage of using gold would be that it provides an inherent risk to the BH, as they could be hit and lose their profits.

Edited by Seagull, 04 April 2014 - 17:01.

[Rek]

Personally, I feel that this would be a great addition to the game, YES including the non counter bounty on bounty hunters.

I feel that a bounty hunter should not be punished for doing their job!

 

Oh yes I'm going to get spat on for this, but all you so called PvPers that send out your whole guild on somebody for clearing a bounty, and or being unable to clear the bounty due to the player has more skill in offline setups, and buffs, thus making it impossible for you to penetrate their setup.

 

 

Now, PvP does not have to involve deleveling. It is showing that you are 'superior' to the other. Least that is what I always thought, not sure how deleveling has ANYTHING to do with PvP... Other than to demoralize the player.

 

You showed that you were better when you beat them for the umptinth time while defending, why must they still be punished? 

 

If you can give me a clear answer to this, then I will recall both of those paragraphs...

 

I do enjoy enjoy the occasional 10 stamina with conserve, i'll even play around a bit, and use severe condition just to see how high I can get my hp and still beat them. That is what PvP should be about, beating the other player. I'll even use fist fight if I'm feeling courageous!  Why do you have to cause the other player losing levels to show that you're better? 

 

It boggles my mind.

[Belaric]

i do agree with you!!  the board is dead...dead...(trying so HARD not to say but...)  tho, i do notice, that when it is most active is when a party has been thrown on someone...we had 5/6 pages of bounties the other day, all (but two) were counter-bounties. alot of the time that is what keeps the board alive for a bit....till another party happens.  so i think that keeping that one aspect the same...will ONLY at times liven the board up...and yes, many probably wont hit those kinds of bounties now, but maybe with what you suggested, there might be more hits...more Bhunters, cuz the rewards would be better than the smallest amount of gold to post like now the way the current system places bounties?

Exactly. Counter bounties provoke a frenzy of activity - I would not be surprised if activity starved PvP players go crazy because they finally get the chance at some action! The people counter bountied get hammered off the board - the experience is pretty negative, so they resolve not to bother going there again. This hasn't happened overnight - it has taken a long time to get to this point. It is a negative loop. Cutting the counter bounty cycle may paradoxically increase BB activity.

[vastilos]

Personally, I feel that this would be a great addition to the game, YES including the non counter bounty on bounty hunters.

I feel that a bounty hunter should not be punished for doing their job!

 

Oh yes I'm going to get spat on for this, but all you so called PvPers that send out your whole guild on somebody for clearing a bounty, and or being unable to clear the bounty due to the player has more skill in offline setups, and buffs, thus making it impossible for you to penetrate their setup.

 

 

Now, PvP does not have to involve deleveling. It is showing that you are 'superior' to the other. Least that is what I always thought, not sure how deleveling has ANYTHING to do with PvP... Other than to demoralize the player.

 

You showed that you were better when you beat them for the umptinth time while defending, why must they still be punished? 

 

If you can give me a clear answer to this, then I will recall both of those paragraphs...

 

I do enjoy enjoy the occasional 10 stamina with conserve, i'll even play around a bit, and use severe condition just to see how high I can get my hp and still beat them. That is what PvP should be about, beating the other player. I'll even use fist fight if I'm feeling courageous!  Why do you have to cause the other player losing levels to show that you're better? 

 

It boggles my mind.

 

I guess the way people see it as this (using a gold hit as an example):

You stole my gold so I want to make sure you don't steal it again, so I put you on the bounty board and your punishment for stealing my gold can be a loss of up to 5 levels for stealing my gold.

The levels lost are supposed to be a deterrent to those who steal gold to not steal from that same person again (in fear of losing more levels)

[Belaric]

I find your solution to the current lack of pvp/BB activity very refreshing Belaric.  One thing I would like to suggest is that rather than a "winner takes all" system,  a system could be implemented where all bounty hunters who participate in a bounty are compensated based on their contribution percentage. This would ensure bounties are always completed fully.

 

 One way to make this viable is to restrict all bounties to gold rather than FSP (FSP would be difficult to split).  There are of course other ways to make this work but they may result in something over-complicated.

 

Your thoughts?

 

EDIT: Another advantage of using gold would be that it provides an inherent risk to the BH, as they could be hit and lose their profits.

Splitting the pot makes implementation a bit more complex which is a negative. But if everyone agreed to it I'd have no problem with it.

 

My worry is that it would mean that while everyone gets gold, nobody has a chance to make a profit. Not that profit is very easy to attain given the expenditure in buffs and stam required to take on a PvP target. This has always been the case and is true under the current system.

 

First past the post encourages competition and Winning the bounty fee. People like the rush of winning something - that is addictive. I think that would be more of a draw than splitting a pot consistently. You miss the gold this time? Next time you'll get it!!! That kind of thing is a draw.

 

BUT - if we got that far with this idea and most folk wanted to split the pot according to % of XP damage done to the target on the BB, I'm not going to wildly object, as it won't fundamentally alter the system.

[Belaric]

I guess the way people see it as this (using a gold hit as an example):

You stole my gold so I want to make sure you don't steal it again, so I put you on the bounty board and your punishment for stealing my gold can be a loss of up to 5 levels for stealing my gold.

The levels lost are supposed to be a deterrent to those who steal gold to not steal from that same person again (in fear of losing more levels)

I agree. And we must also recall that while we don't like to admit it happens, harassment can occur in the game. Being able to consistently drop your harasser in levels gives you the chance to escape his or her PvP range. This is another reason why level loss is important. A negative one I'm sorry to admit exists, but there nevertheless.

 

Rekluse - thanks for the support - but you don't need to tee off on PvP players, it just won't help the debate, or this idea gain traction.

[vastilos]

Another thing I would also suggest, but this would take the involvement of the community (which I am very sorry to say will probably never happen) and help out those people trying to clear their bounty (you can tell the difference between someone who is experienced and someone who isn't) with suggestions like what type of gear to wear (att/dam, def/dam, att/def) and the buffs they should use with their setups. Why counter bounty someone who you can clearly tell is not very experienced with all of this? Take the time to teach them. Heck I do it all the time (if someone does my bounty while I'm online) and I never counter bounty the hunter for trying and giving up because they realized that they can't win or a de-leveling party (unless of course you are one of those special people and if I deserved it, then I take what punishment I deserve) and I even send the people who quit my bounty a PM letting them know they put in a good effort and maybe next time, try this or try that.

More community involvement and teaching others the basics step by step while they clear your bounty (if they are failing miserably) and you might end up with someone who is willing to try it more. But like I said, that would require community involvement.

Edited by vastilos, 04 April 2014 - 17:29.

[lapdragon]

REK helloooo!!.... lol.  ok, i too feel that a bounty hunter shudnt be punished for doing their job!!..i guess that is one of the etiquette rules. BUT...if i 100 stam you for being on the BB for hitting my guy, you should have the right to bounty me, and i know it. So you put me on the BB...i lose levels.  but we kept the board alive...and VASTILOS pretty much summed up the whole level losing thing.  I do know that i am coming from my own personal experiences, since i have spent time on all sides, (Bhunter, pvper attacking, and on the board) so i only speak for myself, but i do know that it is actually fun to be all.  So if you first time BHunt and you get put up on the BB for clearing, you might get to meet some great people, as i did.  that way you can see what type of hunter you will be, an that not everyone who is on the BB is so bad....

 

I am sorry BELARIC, i dont want to detract from this great idea you put out here, by nit picking one little aspect.  I guess im just trying to keep it positive to keep counter bounties in.  Again, you did such alot of cool thinking on this it sparked me to keep posting!  If all your ideas get implemented...i could be wrong and the BB could be filled again...cuz that is what the main goal is really about.  And im all for more bounties! (and getting more into Bhunting)  thanks for letting me sound off!

[Crzy]

Since the PVPers don't like the idea of no counter bountying the BHer, perhaps we can make a compromise or change that will keep them happy. Change the Thieves Guild structure in a way that allows successful gold hits to keep more gold at the end. So a max level Thieves Guild structure can allow 50% or more gold to be saved from being sunk/lost.

 

Ex: xxxxxx lost 13666173 gold of which xxxxxxx stole 10249630. 3 million gold was sunk/lost on this hit. My proposal would put some of that 3 million into the thieve's pocket rather than lost to the abyss. This could apply to all hits or just Master Thief hits, but I'd personally go with ALL hits. The structure DOES require an upkeep afterall.

 

Since the PVPer knows he/she will always lose levels, it's only fair if they get bigger thefts for their risk. We could even increase the range from +10 levels to maybe +25.

Edited by Crzy, 04 April 2014 - 17:39.

[vastilos]

Since the PVPers don't like the idea of no counter bountying the BHer, perhaps we can make a compromise or change that will keep them happy. Change the Thieves Guild structure in a way that allows successful gold hits to keep more gold at the end. So a max level Thieves Guild structure can allow 50% or more gold to be saved from being sunk/lost.

 

Ex: xxxxxx lost 13666173 gold of which xxxxxxx stole 10249630. 3 million gold was sunk/lost on this hit. My proposal would put some of that 3 million into the thieve's pocket rather than lost to the abyss. This could apply to all hits or just Master Thief hits, but I'd personally go with ALL hits. The structure DOES require an upkeep afterall.

 

Since the PVPer knows he/she will always lose levels, it's only fair if they get bigger thefts for their risk. We could even increase the range from +10 levels to maybe +25.

 

The reason gold stolen was lowered was because those who level are too lazy to use the AH, friend or MP to get rid of/hide their gold and they all cried wolf and it was changed.

[Chazz224]

After reading this I do not feel this idea will work nor do I feel this idea would be good for the community., I feel the O.P. has noble intent - but with that said " The road to hell was paved with good intentions"

All that said I can see that their are a couple of pros to this idea - and lot's of cons I will share my thoughts and explain them.

O.P.'s  4 point plan.  

Point 1

1) The victim of an attack sets the punishment required. <----- Let's label this as the first CON vs Pro idea.

The reason why this is bad and listed as a CON:

So anyone attacked in game via this idea would post a bounty up using gold - the amount of gold would reflect how much XP the Poster would want removed from the attacker for such an attack or attempted (deflected attack). This idea is not detailed enough to explain if the punishment is set at a low or medium rate of XP loss for the PvPer that is posted is it possible that the person that is on the board could risk more XP loss exceeding the punishment via multiple hitters?

Example I post Joe on the bounty board and I want Joe to lose 1 level - but 50 people take Joe's bounty is Joe capped at losing 1 level not matter what or can the 50 people tear Joe to shreds and take all 3 or 5 levels?  If Joe's bounty is capped than you are proposing using the Bounty Board very much like Titan Rewards and secures by whom secures the most out of what the bounty is capped at. If Joe's bounty is set to lose 1 level and can be exceeded than this whole plan from the start is biased and completely unfair to the PvPer.

O.P.'s  4 point plan.  

Point 2

2) The bounty hunter (BH) cannot in any circumstance be bountied. Don’t freak out before reading on – I think this can turn into a good thing. <----- This element contains 1 PRO - and a few CONS

The reason why this is bad and listed as a CON:

So by eliminating counter bounties ( taken them away and preventing anyone from ever using them) ALL Players are free to do as they want - They can and will 100 stam everyone that goes to the bounty board as their would no longer be a " Cause and Affect in A DO WHAT YOU WANT SYSTEM. Players would and will run around rampant in this " DO WHAT YOU WANT SYSTEM" Say what you want - do what you want - anything goes cause their would be no penalties for Bounty Hunters. <---- This is to increase PvP Participation? LOL Really ? Who is or would be crazy enough to PvP with such measures? Even with 200% chance of always taken the gold per attack - we can create a new buff that drops the defending players stats to zero so there is no chance an attacker can lose - we can remove deflect from the game - and even then this would not encourage PvP activity - Your Bounty Hunters would have no targets in this world - and those that venture the BB would know any trip their is a 100% chance of losing all 3 levels so unless it's a crazy and insane amount of gold even with 200% Master Thief with a guaranteed win for the Attack - most will not get involved in this. This would be the end of the game as we know it. As I said early on the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The reason why this listed as a PRO:

Those who hate the back lash or repercussion of PvP would have nothing to fear in this " Do what you want system" - there for - anyone found on the BB can be smashed with little to no reason and many will participate in this event - but the best part is without having to fear that the player that is posted can do anything about it.  So a Player level 1980 can smash anyone - make fun of them while doing so - berate the players guild - and nobody can do anything about it. Yup I see this working out well ..... *Sarcasm* =/ Another controversial PRO to this it would completely put an end to any and all guild wars - outside of normal PvP - nothing can be done - so any guild war would or have to be settled by waiting a few yrs to see if anyone goes to the bounty board.

O.P.'s  4 point plan.  

Point 3

3) Guildmates can clear each other’s bounties. <----- This element contains 1 PRO - and 1 CON

The reason why this is bad and listed as a CON:

It is said from the O.P. that bounties posted will have a 7 day time duration prior to their expiration. So not only in the " Do what you want system will someone that's posted be forced to stay active and online for 7 days trying to defend their bounties if they attempt to do so but in addition to defending all the incoming attacks from outside players the posted individual will have to defend against his own guild mates most likely resulting in less buff support while they are posted.  <--- So more or less turning brother against brother here in short.

The reason why this listed as a PRO:

If the players in the community don't stomp someone and secure the bounty prize first - maybe their is a slim chance a nice mate or friend can save the posted player a level if they are lucky.

O.P.'s  4 point plan.  

Point 4

4) Two new Top 250's for PvP are created: An Outlaw Top 250 is created to track those players who have lost the most levels on the bounty board, and a Lawless Top 250 to track those who evaded the posse of Bounty Hunters and survived on the board for a set period of time, initial suggestion being one week. Additionally Outlaw and Lawless medals could be created in addition to the top 250s. <----- I see no CONS or nothing worth mentioning - However their are some PROS I will comment on.


The reason why these are listed as PROS:

The new Outlaw Top 250 will be extremely competitive in the sense that due to anyone taking part in PvP aspect can expect to automatically lose all their levels once going to the bounty board - so this ladder can help ease the pain by assuring those players names are on a billboard and that they can also earn a shiny medal for their troubles and willingness to help keep such an aspect alive.

The new Lawless Ladder will most likely consist of the EOC players who would there be buffed up to evade the XP loss most times - but this will serve as a list of names for players to review and avoid as they would clearly show them selves to be tough to 100 stam and clear.

In closing I feel that the O.P. here had the best of intentions here in topic - I'm sorry to say I don't support it and feel this would do more harm than good in the long run. I see view this as PvP Brutality - not a positive incentive for all - If or by removing the Counter Bounty features from the Bounty Board I do feel many would run around in game rampant - people would disrespect - 100 stam each other - Especially knowing that their are no consequences for such actions.  The politics of the wild west were done away with for a simple reason - they don't work - if society did away with the police - or countries disbanded their armies - the world may seem like a better place for a moment - and that is refereed to the " Quiet before the Storm" be cause when all hell breaks lose it's comforting knowing we have police and armies to defend us. <---- This is not to say that all Pvpers are such neither - I am speaking about the ability to defend your selves - have friends here in game or mates stick up and help you. We need these Counter Measures - Hoof was right by creating them - they help keep things fun, interesting,  and above all else fair within the community.

 

- Chazz