Jump to content

Photo

Trading and Economy of the game?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
87 replies to this topic

#41 Savanc

Savanc

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,631 posts
  • Badge

Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:57

In games with an AH system I've noticed that not many players sell their items at very low prices, so items don't get snatched away by other players who then put them back on the AH for much higher prices.

Instead the player who has the item can easily tell by the AH what the item is roughly worth and their listed price will only be affected by how soon they want to sell it: just a little under the cheapest AH price for a fairly fast sell; around the average AH price for a more long-term sale.

 

In the case of shops I've seen many players who have little idea what their items are worth, and some other players with more knowledge about that will take advantage of it by constantly go from shop to shop and buying up the items that are listed too low. Smart and active players can make huge profits that way on the back of other players. :(

 

 

Also monopolizing items is easier in shop systems than in AHs. Active players will go from shop to shop to look for the specific items and a lot of trading is done without the rest of the player base being aware of it. The fact that without an AH system the shop keepers have little way of telling how much a rare item is actually worth will play into the hands of the player who is trying to monopolize a certain item. Players will only become aware of a monopoly when it has already there... :wacko:

 

 

 

There is a way to include both systems though. Have players' shops exist throughout the game, but also have an AH system where all these items are also displayed. You can choose to view all the shops' items in the game with the AH system and buy them at a slightly higher value, let's say 10% more.

That way players will be able to buy a much needed item without having to browse every single shop in the game only to find it in a shop 5 cities away. This will reduce a lot of the frustration over not being able to find items.

And players can tell what other players are selling the item for, so it prevents other players from abusing possible lack of knowledge about the value of items on the seller's side.

Going to shops can still be beneficial to get items for lower prices, but it's no longer a (sometimes frustrating) necessity. ;)


Gathering  Crystal Cutting 49 | Farming 49 | Fishing 49 | Foraging 49 | Forestry 49 | Prospecting 49 | Skinning 49
Crafting  Alchemy 49 | Armorsmithing 49 | Cooking 49 | Jewelry 49 | Leatherworking 49 | Tailoring 49 | Weaponsmithing 49
First person to have maxed them cool.png

Characters (all level 49)
Prophet    
Savanc       Savavita              Savavimala               Mage          Savanhildur    Savashengli    Savahathor
Warrior  
Savy           Savanikomachos   Savafionnchadh       Assassin   Savalina         Savajahangir
Ranger      Savakainda  Savatakoda         Savaraxka               Templar   Savastanislav  Savasegolene


#42 iambrad

iambrad

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 22:07

Could a merchant skill be included  in this savanc?  The higher skill level you have, the more shops you can check at once or further away from you?



#43 Neon

Neon

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,000 posts
  • Badge

Posted 28 February 2013 - 22:36

As Anakiro said at the start an auction house of some sort will most likely be implemented, but something we will probably not see at initial release.   ^_^

 

I just have to say to the following few guys this is not an RPG or an ARPG like Diablo for example, where the auction house caused great distress because people wanted to play with 'Self found gear'. The majority of players will find such a feature great to work with as it will take allot of tedious hours from standing around trying to buy and sell new items required for all the good stuff Eldevin has to offer.   :lol:


a5kwtf.png

My YouTube Channel - Click Here

 

 

 


#44 Xohn

Xohn

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 00:07

As Anakiro said at the start an auction house of some sort will most likely be implemented, but something we will probably not see at initial release.   ^_^

 

I just have to say to the following few guys this is not an RPG or an ARPG like Diablo for example, where the auction house caused great distress because people wanted to play with 'Self found gear'. The majority of players will find such a feature great to work with as it will take allot of tedious hours from standing around trying to buy and sell new items required for all the good stuff Eldevin has to offer.   :lol:

Exactly.

The economy should not be too complicated or rely on people's ignorance on prices. The auction house is quick, easy, and doesn't require much research to understand. However, the player shop system mentioned by l3fty (with a search feature) would also be great because it would take out all the boring, slow looking around.


.meow.


#45 Seagull

Seagull

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Badge

Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:03

I think it would be neat to have a system in which multiple people (say x number of people) could rent a shop stall together to sell items.  That way they could stock a larger variety of items with less searching involved than, say, an individual stall for each person.



#46 Xohn

Xohn

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:40


I think it would be neat to have a system in which multiple people (say 5 or so) could rent a shop stall together to sell items. That way they could stock a larger variety of items with less searching involved than, say, an individual stall for each person.


An auction house or global shop search feature can make it seem everyone is using a single, giant stall.

.meow.


#47 l3fty

l3fty

    Senior Artist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPip
  • 536 posts
  • Badge

Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:58

Ooh, Guild shop maybe. Might let some guilds lean more towards commerce than other activities.
L3fty
Senior 3D Artist

#48 God

God

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:41

How many players are you expecting upon beta launch?



#49 SDGR

SDGR

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:41

In games with an AH system I've noticed that not many players sell their items at very low prices, so items don't get snatched away by other players who then put them back on the AH for much higher prices.

Instead the player who has the item can easily tell by the AH what the item is roughly worth and their listed price will only be affected by how soon they want to sell it: just a little under the cheapest AH price for a fairly fast sell; around the average AH price for a more long-term sale.

 

In the case of shops I've seen many players who have little idea what their items are worth, and some other players with more knowledge about that will take advantage of it by constantly go from shop to shop and buying up the items that are listed too low. Smart and active players can make huge profits that way on the back of other players. :(

 

 

Also monopolizing items is easier in shop systems than in AHs. Active players will go from shop to shop to look for the specific items and a lot of trading is done without the rest of the player base being aware of it. The fact that without an AH system the shop keepers have little way of telling how much a rare item is actually worth will play into the hands of the player who is trying to monopolize a certain item. Players will only become aware of a monopoly when it has already there... :wacko:

 

 

 

There is a way to include both systems though. Have players' shops exist throughout the game, but also have an AH system where all these items are also displayed. You can choose to view all the shops' items in the game with the AH system and buy them at a slightly higher value, let's say 10% more.

That way players will be able to buy a much needed item without having to browse every single shop in the game only to find it in a shop 5 cities away. This will reduce a lot of the frustration over not being able to find items.

And players can tell what other players are selling the item for, so it prevents other players from abusing possible lack of knowledge about the value of items on the seller's side.

Going to shops can still be beneficial to get items for lower prices, but it's no longer a (sometimes frustrating) necessity. ;)

 

The reason why in AHs prices are not far off is that sellers set their prices after consulting previous sales listings or according to the average price others ask. But that doesn't mean that all (or most) sellers know the real value of the items they're selling - they simply use the other's prices as guidance.

 

This is also the reason why controlling an AH is easy: everything is listed in plain sight (and in real time). You can buy everything that pops up for cheap and sell it seconds later for more. You don't have to go through countless player shops, you don't need to waste a lot of time fishing for good offers, you just hit the refresh button and keep buying/selling. 

 

If the AH has a bidding system and not just a straight selling mechanism, then things get even more interesting because you can really drop or up the prices really fast: let's say some players are selling a similar item for a certain ammount of gold. You place several bids for each item for let's say half the price. You win the bids. Next time someone that wants to sell such an item and checks the previous transactions list will set their price according to your low bids because they see and think "that's the price ppl actually buy for". Then you can bid lower again and drag the price down even more, or maybe just for fun place some high bids on a bunch of useless items and see the prices go through the roof because ppl will think "there must be a good reason why someone buys that item for a lot of gold" ...do you see now what's the problem with the AH system? :)

 

Now let's say I want to do the same thing in a player shop system; I place my shop(s) with outrageous prices - ppl go by, check the prices, walk away (usually ppl buy after going through most if not all the shops to make sure they're not getting ripped off). After visiting a few more shops they can see I'm trying to scam ppl :) It takes much more effort and coordination to control such a market. 

 

In the end, no matter the trading system, it's all down to 2 things:

1. the items that will ultimately dictate the prices and which will be used as criteria for pricing everything else are the cash shop items (providing these will be tradeable) and/or the real cash to gold exchange rate (providing this will also be available). Usually the demand for cash shop items is far greater than the offer because gold and game items gradually pile up, while the stuff bought with real gold is only sold by few.

2. if you want to become successful you need to have deep game knowledge: knowing most of the items (if not all), how to obtain them, what is the demand for 'em, what's their real value. If you think you'd manage to score big simply by monitorising the AH...well, good luck with that - you'll sure need it ;)



#50 Seagull

Seagull

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Badge

Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:06

An auction house or global shop search feature can make it seem everyone is using a single, giant stall.

I disagree; I think stalls and auction houses are quite different, the primary differences being that the market stall involves both more direct player to player interaction and more potential for immersion.  Not to mention the "quest factor" to hunting for a particular item via stalls.  Personally, I believe that the process of buying/selling would be far less interesting/enjoyable with an auction house.



#51 SDGR

SDGR

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:22

I disagree; I think stalls and auction houses are quite different, the primary differences being that the market stall involves both more direct player to player interaction and more potential for immersion.  Not to mention the "quest factor" to hunting for a particular item via stalls.  Personally, I believe that the process of buying/selling would be far less interesting/enjoyable with an auction house.

 

Agreed :)



#52 Xohn

Xohn

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:37

I disagree; I think stalls and auction houses are quite different, the primary differences being that the market stall involves both more direct player to player interaction and more potential for immersion.  Not to mention the "quest factor" to hunting for a particular item via stalls.  Personally, I believe that the process of buying/selling would be far less interesting/enjoyable with an auction house.

I think that buying/selling doesn't have to be interesting and enjoyable(shopping is not fun imo). I think most will find more fun in exploring or killing things. I guess it all comes down to player opinion. Some may find immersion and fun in going through stalls, while others may find it to be a tedious task. In that case, it is possible to have a system with both(though, it may not work out too well).


.meow.


#53 SDGR

SDGR

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:52

IMO the only way to have a successful mix would be an AH for crafting mats and consumables (pots, food, ammunition, etc) through which players would only be allowed to sell in bulk, and a player shop system for everything else: armor/weapons/jewelry/pets/etc. AH could be available via a dedicated button in any zone/map so crafting would work seamlessly while gearing up would require a bit of work and item hunting in a distinct dedicated market area (like Hero Online has).

 

Having both a full AH and a player shop system would result in a very confusing trading system - IMO.



#54 Neon

Neon

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,000 posts
  • Badge

Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:04

Look at it this way:

 

Auction house (Global selling of all items priced by players, fast access to find and obtain what you need).

 

Player to player trading without a global shop method (Timezone can make this harder. There is more than 1 world, I believe. So item locating dropped even more and finding players among other players and throughout the world lessens item locating). 

 

You still have the sense of 'fun' if you find an amazing item to globally announce it (we don't know how chats work yet) but what I believe what will happen is the TOP items will be posted on forums or a world-chat In-Game rather than left in the ah for 'quick money'. This would be one of the most effective systems.

 

Anyway we still have little information on everything and they can't please everyone  ^_^


a5kwtf.png

My YouTube Channel - Click Here

 

 

 


#55 SDGR

SDGR

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:22

A renting system for player vending (rented shops or NPC sellers) could easily solve the timezone issue.

 

Let's face it: it's down to convenience - the AH supporters simply want everything one click away :)

 

Ppl need to understand that becoming a top dog takes time & effort. I've already said this: you may be the best fighter the game has ever had, if you don't have the patience to master the economic aspect of it, you will be outgunned by other players that see the big picture, instead of just focusing on one thing. 

 

And again: just because let's say there will be an AH doesn't mean the best items will be sold through it; unless priced ridiculously high, such items will be traded in closed circles outside the system (guilds, friends, etc). You will not see them flooding the AH ;)



#56 Xohn

Xohn

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:30

IMO the only way to have a successful mix would be an AH for crafting mats and consumables (pots, food, ammunition, etc) through which players would only be allowed to sell in bulk, and a player shop system for everything else: armor/weapons/jewelry/pets/etc. AH could be available via a dedicated button in any zone/map so crafting would work seamlessly while gearing up would require a bit of work and item hunting in a distinct dedicated market area (like Hero Online has).

 

Having both a full AH and a player shop system would result in a very confusing trading system - IMO.

Honestly, I just want what I need as fast as possible so I can go back into playing the game. A simple trading system would be the best system in my opinion. I agree that having a full auction house/shop system would not work too well(mostly everyone would just use the AH because it is the most efficient, and people w/ shops won't get too many buyers).

 

Anyway we still have little information on everything and they can't please everyone  ^_^

Sadly. :c

 

~~~~look a new post~~~(edit)

 


A renting system for player vending (rented shops or NPC sellers) could easily solve the timezone issue.

 

Let's face it: it's down to convenience - the AH supporters simply want everything one click away  :)

 

Ppl need to understand that becoming a top dog takes time & effort. I've already said this: you may be the best fighter the game has ever had, if you don't have the patience to master the economic aspect of it, you will be outgunned by other players that see the big picture, instead of just focusing on one thing. 

 

And again: just because let's say there will be an AH doesn't mean the best items will be sold through it; unless priced ridiculously high, such items will be traded in closed circles outside the system (guilds, friends, etc). You will not see them flooding the AH  ;)

Obviously we want convenience. Convenience is not a bad thing. Because the AH is very simple, new players(when the game is older) won't be too intimidated by the system. I understand things require time and effort, but remember this is a game. I play a game in order to have fun and putting time and effort into the economy is (imo) boring.


.meow.


#57 SDGR

SDGR

    Member

  • New Members
  • PipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:47

Ok, but what will you do if the item you need doesn't get listed in the AH? :) AH may be convenient, but doesn't stock with items by itself ;) And if they do implement such a system, better pray they'll make it accessible via a button, instead of placing an actual building you'd need to actually walk in to consult the listings - then you'll see what annoying really means (God, I hated RoM's) :) 



#58 Neon

Neon

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,000 posts
  • Badge

Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:02

A renting system for player vending (rented shops or NPC sellers) could easily solve the timezone issue.

 

Let's face it: it's down to convenience - the AH supporters simply want everything one click away :)

 

Ppl need to understand that becoming a top dog takes time & effort. I've already said this: you may be the best fighter the game has ever had, if you don't have the patience to master the economic aspect of it, you will be outgunned by other players that see the big picture, instead of just focusing on one thing. 

 

And again: just because let's say there will be an AH doesn't mean the best items will be sold through it; unless priced ridiculously high, such items will be traded in closed circles outside the system (guilds, friends, etc). You will not see them flooding the AH ;)

I did comment on the fact that the top items would most likely be sold through forum trading, friends and other methods rather than left in AH.

 

There is no real fun in searching for items you need and gearing your character through an auction house doesn't make you any less skilled than gearing through a player trade system. You can acquire your gear with much less stress..

 

I really don't see why the few of you would not want an auction house. It really does have no effect on game play, bar speeding the process up to acquire your items and less time spent spent around standing around.. It's also effective for those who don't have hours to sit at their computer searching for something. They can play the game whilst placing bids/waiting for updated auctions to search to buyout.

 

I believe you are trying to relate the potential trading system in Eldevin to that of RuneScape's back around 2000-2007. I did play this like many others and back then trading among players was fun in a small sense, but it did take up allot of time and the swarms of players was very annoying. After the update to the grand exchange in this game (Global AH system) it was so much more fun and easy to buy and sell items, the rarer items such as party hats were still sold on forums and via other methods.


a5kwtf.png

My YouTube Channel - Click Here

 

 

 


#59 Xohn

Xohn

    New Member

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:04

Ok, but what will you do if the item you need doesn't get listed in the AH? :) AH may be convenient, but doesn't stock with items by itself ;) And if they do implement such a system, better pray they'll make it accessible via a button, instead of placing an actual building you'd need to actually walk in to consult the listings - then you'll see what annoying really means (God, I hated RoM's)  :)

Then I'll find another way of getting my hands on the item? The AH is just there to speed things up if it can.

 

 


-snip-

Well said.


.meow.


#60 Savanc

Savanc

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,631 posts
  • Badge

Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:04

This
is also the reason why controlling an AH is easy: everything is listed in plain sight (and in real time). You can buy everything that pops up for cheap and sell it seconds later for more. You don't have to go through countless player shops, you don't need to waste a lot of time fishing for good offers, you just hit the refresh button and keep buying/selling. 

 

Can you show me this awesome trick of selling things seconds later? huh.png

I've never seen markets move so quickly...

 

If a player is buying low and selling high then he's very likely having to wait for quite some time before a player will buy the items.

 

 

 

 

If the AH has a bidding system and not just a straight selling mechanism, then things get even more interesting because you can really drop or up the prices really fast: let's say some players are selling a similar item for a certain amount of gold. You place several bids for each item for let's say half the price. You win the bids. Next time someone that wants to sell such an item and checks the previous transactions list will set their price according to your low bids because they see and think "that's the price ppl actually buy for". Then you can bid lower again and drag the price down even more, or maybe just for fun place some high bids on a bunch of useless items and see the prices go through the roof because ppl will think "there must be a good reason why someone buys that item for a lot of gold" ...do you see now what's the problem with the AH system? :)

 

Yep, that works very well if the players have the memory of goldfishes... :rolleyes:

Most players however do know something about the items they are selling and know when the price is half or double of the usual price.

This price manipulation hardly works. The only times I've seen it done slightly successfully is with high end luxury items where there is little supply. But even then the players are hardly influenced by someone who lists their items much too low or too high. :rolleyes:


Gathering  Crystal Cutting 49 | Farming 49 | Fishing 49 | Foraging 49 | Forestry 49 | Prospecting 49 | Skinning 49
Crafting  Alchemy 49 | Armorsmithing 49 | Cooking 49 | Jewelry 49 | Leatherworking 49 | Tailoring 49 | Weaponsmithing 49
First person to have maxed them cool.png

Characters (all level 49)
Prophet    
Savanc       Savavita              Savavimala               Mage          Savanhildur    Savashengli    Savahathor
Warrior  
Savy           Savanikomachos   Savafionnchadh       Assassin   Savalina         Savajahangir
Ranger      Savakainda  Savatakoda         Savaraxka               Templar   Savastanislav  Savasegolene



Font:
Arial | Calibri | Lucida Console | Verdana
 
Font Size:
9px | 10px | 11px | 12px | 10pt | 12pt
 
Color: