255 replies to this topic

[Emperor Sidd]

I don't pretend to desire more activity. The suggestion was to limit rating gains for non quality opponents, and I support this. What I suggested taking away was rp gained by an initiating guild who's attempt results in a tie. I am fine and supporting of a defending guild being rewarded rp for their efforts. Do you think rp is deserved by initiator when results are loss or tie?

Personally I understand where you are coming from but, the reason I mentioned the lifeless comment was because on the ladder, you can opt in, as you get the notification that it starts, you buff up and secure some rating 3 hrs later multiple people hit you back and how you are sitting at the bottom of the ladder. So for most people that is a loss and not worth the investment and wont play. Similarly most spend to initiate and invest their stam and funds for buffs knowing they will get something. Its just how most people see it, a business and they ignore the rating part of it. Now if they start fearing that more people have incentive to draw and because of that their investment is a higher risk they will shy away. Thats alot of people shying away. So some of us who play for pride of winning can't ignore the other casual players to keep GVG active.

[BadPenny]

As Rye said before about the difference between this and the smasher medal, the differences here between GvG and the ladder are also apples and oranges.  On the ladder, you not only lose rating with every loss, but massive amounts of XP, as 100 stam hits are ALWAYS used, not only to get that rating, but to get that smasher tick.  GvG is pillow fighting, the only risk anyone takes is the loss of RP along with some damage to gear for both parties involved.  We're not "opting in" for GvG now, those that do participate pick a guild they think might be a good fit for whatever reason, and swing away their 25 hit limit for each participant of the initiating guild, and the defending guild can hit back, hoping for a self defense win or at least a tie.  Those that are defending have few ways of knowing who is actually being hit if they are offline, and with a large guild, it's virtually impossible to buff every target involved.  

 

Maybe there should be an opt in system in place for GvG.  Some FS players are totally uninterested in it as they are ANY form of PvP, even though the only losses they may sustain are in the form of lost RP and overall ranking and whatever gold the target players have to spend to repair.  I know I have spent a pretty penny on several occasions....  It's all part of the game for me, but others just feel differently about it.   

 

The fact is that few changes have been made to the GvG system in all these years, with more focus going into other aspects of the game that folks feel more important.  Regardless whether this or some other idea is considered, isn't it time GvG got a little attention as well?  

Edited by BadPenny, 25 April 2017 - 04:45.

[Emperor Sidd]

GvG is pillow fighting, the only risk anyone takes is the loss of RP along with some damage to gear for both parties involved.  We're not "opting in" for GvG now, those that do participate pick a guild they think might be a good fit for whatever reason, and swing away their 25 hit limit for each participant of the initiating guild, and the defending guild can hit back, hoping for a self defense win or at least a tie.

 

 

I'm not sure if this was a reply to my comment about ladder but to clarify, GVG is far from risk free. You have initiation costs, you have equipment costs ( yes leveler guilds may not have those attack def sets ), you have buff costs and you have stam costs. So if in the case that a guild can potentially draw and you get nothing, that is a risk. Yes ladder is different but we also wanna learn from you can say 'went wrong with ladder'.

 

Side note, I used to gvg back in 08 and 09 just for fun you know before the RP items but it was maybe 1-2 and maybe once a week and it was between allied guilds even. One of the reason the whole RP items came was to increase activity and earn those rewards for more and at the time very exclusive content. The amount of level 25s that came about and every guild started recruiting a couple of them to GVG for them. It may have not been the whole guild v guild experience but it did get people to start using that part of the game.

[BadPenny]

Sid, SA is primarily a leveling guild.  We have all the hunting gear one could imagine.  Very little is designed for any type of PvP, outside of things kept primarily for the arena, and the odd pieces I and a few others have outgrown and donated to the guild.  What I have for the few times I get a PvP DQ, or GvG purposes, I purchased or farmed for myself.

 

And I understand about the gold costs, but in the end, nobody gets hurt, nobody dies, and USUALLY there are no hard feelings in the end.  On the other hand, when playing the ladder, leveling progress is stunted at best, and the dedicated ladder participant loses levels every cycle.  

 

This is what I meant, that the risks and losses are much different, so there's not a real basis for comparison there.  

 

I generally spend more stam and moneys preparing for a hunt than I do actively participating in a GvG.  I can only speak for my own experience here, others will have a different viewpoint, obviously

[midgetmanj]

I don't see anyone whining but you must understand the game from a neutral point of view than your own if you wanna talk about game changes, only a small percentage of GVGers can say they would gvg without material reward. You must understand that for people who spend or have other ways to earn fsp, GVG is a hobby and they can truly fight for honor without worrying about the costs. For the rest, you must understand gvg is more of a full time role. The level 50s, 100s, 200s etc are not leveling and devoting their stam into GVG and without pay they will run out of funds to buy buffs. 

 

 

Oh really?  For some odd reason that triggers me.   I am a level 200 odd and yes I DO GVG and devote all of my stam into it.  No I dont care whether Im payed or not.  I simply just do it without expecting payment or anything because its what I enjoy.  Thats it.  I do what I enjoy and leave it at that.

 

Rye,  this is an amazing idea to bring GvG back to life for the guilds that dont do it as they have no real reason to.  This gives them that reason. 

 

I will however say that if you were to get to the Top 25's and just dont go anywhere is not great. Maybe offer a 1 or 2 stam gain for those that get to the top 25 full stop.  Doesnt matter if they get the top 3 or whatever.  That way, you get some sorta reward for being that high up.   I reckon the rewards should be:

Gold: +8 Stam Gain ( +1 on the Hoof Hammer)
Silver: +6 Stam Gain
Bronze: +4 Stam Gain

Top 25's: +2 Stam Gain. 

Keeps it somewhat in line with whats currently in game and gives guilds a boost/need/want for coming top 25.   

As for the RP, anything to expand it and make it more relevant is great.  

[wazzimoto]

I think this is a great idea.....and with some tweaking could be very enjoyable and fun to participate in! GvG has been very slow going in the last year or so....and could use some changes! PvP Seasons was great fun and I think incorporating GvG into the same style of play could bring some life back into the game for some players/Guilds!! 

Great to also see the positive response!!

[Emperor Sidd]

Oh really?  For some odd reason that triggers me.   I am a level 200 odd and yes I DO GVG and devote all of my stam into it.  No I dont care whether Im payed or not.  I simply just do it without expecting payment or anything because its what I enjoy.  Thats it.  I do what I enjoy and leave it at that.

 

Let me guess, you gvg by spending fsps or at your guilds expense so you enjoy it. If you didn't spend fsps or have a guild supporting you specially with that gear, you wouldn't enjoy it. That would give you a good idea of how reality is outside LWS, ND, SA etc guilds that don't pay. Think about the majority of people who GVG, don't be so narrow minded.

[lapdragon]

Let me guess, you gvg by spending fsps or at your guilds expense so you enjoy it. If you didn't spend fsps or have a guild supporting you specially with that gear, you wouldn't enjoy it. That would give you a good idea of how reality is outside LWS, ND, SA etc guilds that don't pay. Think about the majority of people who GVG, don't be so narrow minded.

im not sure if you are implying that i pay anyone for GVG.  i do not....BUT, with a DIVERSE guild, levelers, titan hunters, GLOBAL top 100 players, composers and yes GVGERS, there are pots that can be used for both..we work as a team..thats why we are proud to be called a GUILD...our levelers dont participate in all aspects of GVG.  BUT, as a guild...when a GVG comes in, mates buff those getting hit, and get out of their epics.  We are a team, and our diversity makes us work together.  Those complaining of gear costs, really??  UB is a great buff to keep on because this IS a pvp, GVG game.  SO, maybe with better incentives, more guilds will go out and look at what other aspects of the game there is.  I for one,  HATE leveling...but i do it once in a while, obviously, and like to see my levels go up.  The implementation of better buff packages, even if they are only level 175, would be great across the board for ALL guilds, nice to save stam, and bring more into getting their feet wet.  A loss is only a loss if you learn nothing from it.......those are good words to live by!!!!

 

also BUMP to MIDGET n WAZZY, i ran out of likes...LOL

Edited by lapdragon, 25 April 2017 - 12:17.

[Emperor Sidd]

im not sure if you are implying that i pay anyone for GVG.  i do not....

Quite the opposite, the guilds I named were the ones that don't pay for GVGs as far as I can tell  

[lapdragon]

lol, ok i understand now!!!  Im sorry if i misunderstood you!!

[KitiaraLi]

I like the idea. It could add some more flow to the GvG aspect of the game.

Suggestions/thoughts (and I have only read OP, so pardon me if I repeat stuff already said);

1. The top 3 trophies should not be able to change hands!
If a guild goes to "war" with everyone, it should not be for profit, aaaand I think some will try to cheat their way around it. 
For instance I envision new guilds, with new chars (*hum hum* multies), or a sister guild in a more GVg sized fashion with paid ppl, that guild then "sell" their reward to a huge "not-a-change-to-compete-in-such-a-thing" sorta guild. It could also result in a huge guild massively sponsoring a more GvG sized guild - again, to get the reward in the end. Just... make the reward stick to the guild that wins it. Simple.

2. Why so long periods? Want this to get rolling, make it max 3. months, including the finale.

3. There should be a cool down period of say 7 (maybe even 14) days, between attacking the same guild. Simply to avoid farming, and crying.

4. Good work from the OP. I hope the cows respond in kind

[BadPenny]

I like the idea. It could add some more flow to the GvG aspect of the game.

Suggestions/thoughts (and I have only read OP, so pardon me if I repeat stuff already said);

1. The top 3 trophies should not be able to change hands!
If a guild goes to "war" with everyone, it should not be for profit, aaaand I think some will try to cheat their way around it. 
For instance I envision new guilds, with new chars (*hum hum* multies), or a sister guild in a more GVg sized fashion with paid ppl, that guild then "sell" their reward to a huge "not-a-change-to-compete-in-such-a-thing" sorta guild. It could also result in a huge guild massively sponsoring a more GvG sized guild - again, to get the reward in the end. Just... make the reward stick to the guild that wins it. Simple.
For the purposes of a "championship", this should be able to change hands from "season" to "season, else GvG will become stale again as other guilds become discouraged.  As to the possibility of multis and other forms of collusion, BG is usally on top of such things, and we'll have to trust that he would remain just as diligent in this instance.  Such issues are the reason we have cooldown periods in place and the "guild lock" whereas one can leave a guild in an active GvG, but cannot join a new one until said GvG has finished.  Maybe this could be expanded during the finals period in some way.

2. Why so long periods? Want this to get rolling, make it max 3. months, including the finale.
Agreed!  Too long and people will become bored....  Per quarter is a good rule of thumb for most seasons, I think.

 

3. There should be a cool down period of say 7 (maybe even 14) days, between attacking the same guild. Simply to avoid farming, and crying.
There already being a cooldown period, this problem should be minimal at best.  During any championship periods, during finals, the best of the best should be pitted in a kind of round robin fashion, to prevent Big Bad Guild #1 from just focusing on easy prey.

 

4. Good work from the OP. I hope the cows respond in kind

[Melons]

Let me guess, you gvg by spending fsps or at your guilds expense so you enjoy it. If you didn't spend fsps or have a guild supporting you specially with that gear, you wouldn't enjoy it. That would give you a good idea of how reality is outside LWS, ND, SA etc guilds that don't pay. Think about the majority of people who GVG, don't be so narrow minded.

The problem with GvG is that is has turned into PvG (Player vs Guild). There are only a few guilds left that actually GvG as a guild instead of recruiting 2 or 3 GvGers to do the work. We need a system that requires group effort and gives rewards that will benefit the whole guild. That is why I really like the stam boost reward proposed by Rye. Everyone in the guild gets rewarded.

 

Yes, while my guild does GvG, we also have levelers, titan hunters, PvPers, etc. On the days we have GvGs planned out, we ask everyone to switch to defense gear, so we can defend incoming hits. Members, here, are willing to sacrifice their epics and stam for just 24 hours to benefit the whole guild. Everyone here helps in one way or another. Whether it is by buffing, making composing pots, or hitting. In the end, the RP earned goes right back to all the members in the form of buff packs.

 

By the way, while it is correct we don't pay for GvGs, we have people voluntarily using their stam and buffs to help one another for the guild to benefit like I stated above. I can't speak on the behalf of everyone. But, if you ask any of the players in the top three GvG guilds why they still GvG even though they do not get paid for it, I'll bet you the top responses will be either they love it or that it's one of the only aspects of the game that actually requires a group effort. 

Edited by Melons, 25 April 2017 - 16:24.

[BadPenny]

Let me guess, you gvg by spending fsps or at your guilds expense so you enjoy it. If you didn't spend fsps or have a guild supporting you specially with that gear, you wouldn't enjoy it. That would give you a good idea of how reality is outside LWS, ND, SA etc guilds that don't pay. Think about the majority of people who GVG, don't be so narrow minded.

I generally spend as little as possible.  I use my own buffs, pick my own targets, use my own gear.  I don't ask nor expect any recognition, I get my satisfaction from being able to meet the challenge of defeating a possibly superior opponent...Granted, a lot will take the easy out, but maybe a "seasons" approach will encourage those with like minds, that do it for the sheer fun of it, that crave a true challenge, to participate, rather than stagnate into 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,0,r, rinse and repeat.  

[Melons]

1. The top 3 trophies should not be able to change hands!
If a guild goes to "war" with everyone, it should not be for profit, aaaand I think some will try to cheat their way around it. 
For instance I envision new guilds, with new chars (*hum hum* multies), or a sister guild in a more GVg sized fashion with paid ppl, that guild then "sell" their reward to a huge "not-a-change-to-compete-in-such-a-thing" sorta guild. It could also result in a huge guild massively sponsoring a more GvG sized guild - again, to get the reward in the end. Just... make the reward stick to the guild that wins it. Simple.

I think this is very critical to do if there is a rework. Otherwise, we will just see a repeat of what happened when the RP epic items were introduced.

 

Also, I am not sure if this has been proposed yet, but one way the dilemma between large guilds vs small guilds could be solved is having a multiplier. The more players you have in your guild, the higher the multiplier. Inactive players would not count towards the multiplier, obviously, but just a thought I had. 

Edited by Melons, 25 April 2017 - 16:38.

[Emperor Sidd]

 

Yes, while my guild does GvG, we also have levelers, titan hunters, PvPers, etc. On the days we have GvGs planned out, we ask everyone to switch to defense gear, so we can defend incoming hits. Members, here, are willing to sacrifice their epics and stam for just 24 hours to benefit the whole guild. Everyone here helps in one way or another. Whether it is by buffing, making composing pots, or hitting. In the end, the RP earned goes right back to all the members in the form of buff packs.

 

By the way, while it is correct we don't pay for GvGs, we have people voluntarily using their stam and buffs to help one another for the guild to benefit like I stated above. I can't speak on the behalf of everyone. But, if you ask any of the players in the top three GvG guilds why they still GvG even though they do not get paid for it, I'll bet you the top responses will be either they love it or that it's one of the only aspects of the game that actually requires a group effort. 

 

I feel you missed out the the last sentence of the comment you quoted. Let's say your guild is a success story as well as LWS as both have mentioned their efforts to overcome the weaknesses that come with larger guilds. As you mention yourself, the top three guilds love it without pay and it doesn't have to be bet on, its fact. But top three is NOT the majority. How would you like to be just facing 5 guilds if a GVG system was so demanding that if you wanted to GVG you either go small or be a success at large guilds like ND or LWS which isn't for the casuals who aren't involved with bigger picture of the game.

 

While it may not be yours, OPs or anybody's intention, most people that agree with the original idea are in the top 3 gvg guilds and a simple reset system with added rewards is not going to fix anything, it's more of an attempt to get the game to reward you for the way you like to play. 

 

I have mentioned two flaws with the original idea and counter solutions with points to back it up:

Instead of simple reset of rating, Introduce guild size brackets to really level the playing feild 

Don't mess with RP gain, Introduce new Reward currency for more exclusive buff packs

 

Neither OP or anyone else has brought up much opposition to the ideas

Edited by SiddXIV, 25 April 2017 - 17:26.

[Melons]

I feel you missed out the the last sentence of the comment you quoted. Let's say your guild is a success story as well as LWS as both have mentioned their efforts to overcome the weaknesses that come with larger guilds. As you mention yourself, the top three guilds love it without pay and it doesn't have to be bet on, its fact. But top three is NOT the majority. How would you like to be just facing 5 guilds if a GVG system was so demanding that if you wanted to GVG you either go small or be a success at large guilds like ND or LWS which isn't for the casuals who aren't involved with bigger picture of the game.

 

While it may not be yours, OPs or anybody's intention, most people that agree with the original idea are in the top 3 gvg guilds and a simple reset system with added rewards is not going to fix anything, it's more of an attempt to get the game to reward you for the way you like to play. 

 

I have mentioned two flaws with the original idea and counter solutions with points to back it up:

Instead of simple reset of rating, Introduce guild size brackets to really level the playing feild 

Don't mess with RP gain, Introduce new Reward currency for more exclusive buff packs

 

Neither OP or anyone else has brought up any opposition to the ideas

The problem with adding more rewards that can be sold is just going to be a repeat of what happened with the Epic RP items. That does not change anything of what the current system is. Also, you do realize, if a guild that isn't from the top three beats any of the top three guilds, we lose a huge amount of rating. What you need to do is increase competition for rewards that appeals to everyone. 

 

If I really wanted an easy button for GvG, I'd be advocating for the addition of more RP items, so my guild could easily profit from it. That's not the case. If you have rewards that people are willing to compete over and spend time/stam on then you will increase more activity. 

 

It seems like whenever players vouch to increase activity in a certain part of the game people end up thinking it is for their interests. I vouched for change on the ladder even though I can sit there all day collecting tokens and medal ticks. Why would I ask for more competition, when at the current state I spend less time and resources?  The reason why the top three GvG guilds are the top three is because we are competitive against one another. Do we know how to GvG, sure; however, that doesn't mean other guilds don't or can't beat us. Look at RA, LWS, and ND GvG records. We all have losses, which shows we aren't invincible. I can tell you out of the multiple guilds we hit on our GvG days, only 1 or 2 actually TRY to even hit back. 

 

By the way, we aren't a big guild at all. We have fewer than 50 members and about 25-30 actually log in every day. Doesn't matter if you are a 4 member guild or have 100+ members. It about how you work together. That's what I've been trying to advocate for this whole time. Right now GvG is in a state where it isn't really guild versus guild. If you read my reply your post, I mentioned adding rewards that benefit the whole guild. Rewards that can't be exchanged, so you can't have the repeat of the multi accounts that happened. But, also, rewards that increase stam gain, stam gain, buffs, etc. Rewards that can be used in other aspects of the game. 

Edited by Melons, 25 April 2017 - 17:59.

[Ryebred]

My opinions, and ideas have nothing to do with the guild I'm in. Feel free to look over my post history, and point out all my contradictions. Round up the majority to oppose the topic. The minority obviously has a vested interest, so came to comment. Very few seem to represent the farming class majority I keep hearing of. If nothing changes I'm still one of the games best GvG players inside the games best GvG guild, and despite appearing to few as if this is all for some self serving agenda I stand to lose nothing as is. July 3rd 2014 GvG was scheduled for reworking via developers roadmap. Did anything change? I was away two years, and the system appears the same. Why shouldn't there be at least some form of recognition for GvG efforts implemented? Many alternative suggestions within this thread are extreme, and requiring complete overhaul verse my ideas. No matter what changes occur be they my ideas or someone else's the only guarantee I have is I will thrive and dominate.

[Emperor Sidd]

The problem with adding more rewards that can be sold is just going to be a repeat of what happened with the Epic RP items. That does not change anything of what the current system is. Also, you do realize, if a guild that isn't from the top three beats any of the top three guilds, we lose a huge amount of rating. What you need to do is increase competition for rewards that appeals to everyone. 

 

If I really wanted an easy button for GvG, I'd be advocating for the addition of more RP items, so my guild could easily profit from it. That's not the case. If you have rewards that people are willing to compete over and spend time/stam on then you will increase more activity. 

 

It seems like whenever players vouch to increase activity in a certain part of the game people end up thinking it is for their interests. I vouched for change on the ladder even though I can sit there all day collecting tokens and medal ticks. Why would I ask for more competition, when at the current state I spend less time and resources?  The reason why the top three GvG guilds are in there is because we are competitive against one another. Do we know how to GvG, sure; however, that doesn't mean other guilds don't or can't beat us. Look at RA, LWS, and ND GvG records. We all have losses, which shows we aren't invincible. I can tell you out of the multiple guilds we hit on our GvG days, only 1 or 2 actually TRY to even hit back. 

 

By the way, we aren't a big guild at all. We have fewer than 50 members and about 25-30 actually log in every day. Doesn't matter if you are a 4 member guild or have 100+ members. It about how you work together. That's what I've been trying to advocate for this whole time. Right now GvG is in a state where it isn't really guild versus guild. If you read my reply your post, I mentioned adding rewards that benefit the whole guild. Rewards that can't be exchanged, so you can't have the repeat of the multi accounts that happened. But, also, rewards that increase stam gain, stam gain, buffs, etc. Rewards that can be used in other aspects of the game. 

 

I didn't say anything about adding more rewards that can be sold, I mentioned a point currency that can be used for exclusive buff packs not items. 

 

Ratings are a buffer, even if you are 1 rating above rank 3 you are still rank 2. Buffer meaning if you are 100 above rank 2, you can mess up 2-3 GVG before you drop below to rank 3. Yes I mean you mess up since you wont lose rating unless you lose a hit, draws means no change. You lose more and gain less is to allow guilds to catch up and keep the rating ranks competitive. Wouldn't be fun it was like the gold hoarder medal right ? So don't complain about losing rating, you only lose more because you are up there and if you are lets say 'legit' you can hold down and even come back to it if things go wrong. or you're whining cuz you can't accumulate rating and sit comfortably with your proposed rewards huh. 

 

See the idea seems good on paper because it will increase activity between the top 3 or lets say the dedicated GVGers, but in reality it will push away all the casual GVGers and the ones who do it for profit. But you cant seem to see that since it, as I said makes the game suit the way you like to play not the way GVG was meant to be.

 

I want more activity too, I would love to see it reworked but we can't be reckless and implement the first idea without understanding the implication of changes. 

[Emperor Sidd]

My opinions, and ideas have nothing to do with the guild I'm in. Feel free to look over my post history, and point out all my contradictions. Round up the majority to oppose the topic. The minority obviously has a vested interest, so came to comment. Very few seem to represent the farming class majority I keep hearing of. If nothing changes I'm still one of the games best GvG players inside the games best GvG guild, and despite appearing to few as if this is all for some self serving agenda I stand to lose nothing as is. July 3rd 2014 GvG was scheduled for reworking via developers roadmap. Did anything change? I was away two years, and the system appears the same. Why shouldn't there be at least some form of recognition for GvG efforts implemented? Many alternative suggestions within this thread are extreme, and requiring complete overhaul verse my ideas. No matter what changes occur be they my ideas or someone else's the only guarantee I have is I will thrive and dominate.

 

 

Lol, its nothing personal. I hope you understand, if this is a serious thread, I want to put forward a point of view of majority of casual GVGers on the proposed changes. Your ideas come from a mind set of competitiveness which is great but the ideas that you come up with can be more demanding and deterring for the casuals. Prove me wrong but most people you see advertise with looking for gvgers, paying big fsp. I am all for changes to be made and I certainly feel the same way about dominating as you do.