134 replies to this topic

[uhsword]

This thread is about trying to build up numbers. I was talking about redesigning the lower levels to make it a more immersive experience for new players, and so gain new and more players. You may have to reuse some low level gear. Every significant guild has had to go through that process. Don't use fear of having outmoded old gear stop you from embracing the new. If you are really still a new guild be part of the vanguard of change.

Then what about the relic below level 50 would it(they) be moved to being recreated so to speak? Also of course it's not a lot of xp compared to above 1000 but would the contributed exp from the old days of 1:50 be subtracted for the guild?

They want to help the Guild earn RP. They want to earn fsp for themselves.

Well not all the time tho sometimes tho not usually they want them b/c they have yet to pay others for buffs graphics etc. and 'pretend' to earn them only to donate them to the guild or a different one



When do we ever not get sidetracked irl or here?...

[Gutie]

I'm for streamlining the 1-50 range. I like the concept as I said of bumping up initial upgrades. I'd be fully behind the framework both rebornjedi and Belaric outlined.

As for GvGing, and this from a Guild that does just fine without any real presence of sub level 100 GvGers, (almost all are 140-200+) GvGing sub 100 is farming. It's zero challenge to hit below you at those levels. Especially when people can fully buff up one or two level 49s and stomp 4 people for an easy 24 RP. That's absurd.

Also, as someone who used to get about 25-50 logs about guild conflict losses back in 2010 when I wasn't at 200, let alone 150... That IS the PRIMARY Reason I went AWOL on my guild for about two years. Tired of getting smacked around via Guild conflicts around the clock.

To be blunt... GvGing takes a backseat to player retention/acquisition anything contrary to this is in my truthful opinion irrelevant, as having more people will cause growth in ALL aspects of Fallensword... including prospective donations

[LLAP]

I wouldn't half mind creating a Multi and see how I go about my travels with limited upgrades, BP spaces, stamina and if I was to join a guild how daunting the GvG Aspect might be when I am absolutely unable to successfully defends.

Cowss, temp deactivate my account and grant me this :'D

[Belaric]

Next morning and a calmer head.

wil72 I did not mean to in any way undermine your progress as a guild. I started my guild at level 160, FMRDave was 120's, and it has been grassroots all the way, slowly built up, no mergers or takeovers, so I completely understand your pride in your guild. Christ - this thread is about improving the game, not about fighting over available GvG levels and I'm sorry it went in that direction. It was an idea to streamline content to level 50, which does affect your area of expertise - but they are words in the wind and unlikely to be acted on by the cows. You have every right to defend your turf from my suggestion, just as I have the right to make it. But this is all it was. I should not have been sidetracked into discussion of your guild's age and status - but I was, and for that I apologise as it accomplishes nothing but the slinging of mud. Further we have no idea if GvG is affecting player retention - assumptions without evidence abound, and are foolish, and I am a fool for making them. I suppose your GvG team would know about player retention at lower levels better than anyone as they are the boots on the ground - do they see targets disappear by stopping playing, or by gaining levels beyond 50 and moving on? The forum is a talking shop - most of the time I regret bothering to post. It seems that is the case again today. My best wishes to you and your guild.

[wil72]

Next morning and a calmer head.

wil72 I did not mean to in any way undermine your progress as a guild. I started my guild at level 160, FMRDave was 120's, and it has been grassroots all the way, slowly built up, no mergers or takeovers, so I completely understand your pride in your guild. Christ - this thread is about improving the game, not about fighting over available GvG levels and I'm sorry it went in that direction. It was an idea to streamline content to level 50, which does affect your area of expertise - but they are words in the wind and unlikely to be acted on by the cows. You have every right to defend your turf from my suggestion, just as I have the right to make it. But this is all it was. I should not have been sidetracked into discussion of your guild's age and status - but I was, and for that I apologise as it accomplishes nothing but the slinging of mud. Further we have no idea if GvG is affecting player retention - assumptions without evidence abound, and are foolish, and I am a fool for making them. I suppose your GvG team would know about player retention at lower levels better than anyone as they are the boots on the ground - do they see targets disappear by stopping playing, or by gaining levels beyond 50 and moving on? The forum is a talking shop - most of the time I regret bothering to post. It seems that is the case again today. My best wishes to you and your guild.

Hello again.

I very much appreciate your kind words Belaric. I too must apologise. I'm sorry for steering this thread away from the original topic and fueling the argument in connection with GvG levels. I have to admit to having a bit to much to drink last night but that's no excuse.

Good question, I'll have a proper discussion with our GvG team to see if they can shed any light on targets disappearing or leveling. It may provide an indication to player behaviour in general.

Yes, the forum is a talk shop and mate I for one am glad that you continue to post comment here.

Continued success to you and your Guild Belaric.

Cheers.

wil72

[RebornJedi]

Yeah I'm doing 2 posts in a row.

This one is about the start of the game to make it better.

I am with rebornjedi about the epic quests at the start, but I want to take it further.

I think HCS should gut the 1st 50 levels, make the epic quest get to level 50 and leave new players feeling powerful and ready to face the much more chaotic lands beyond level 50.

Specifically - kill ALL content not involved in the epic quests or in subsequent epic quests, streamline the early messiness that was created when HCS had no idea what FS would turn into. Back then HCS was trying to invent spaces for players to explore and find cool.... that is not needed now, now we need new players to get hooked. New players do not need to get stuck in Narrow Paths of waste of stam on the way to nowhere interesting that makes them stop playing instantly. Kill that crap. Kill those useless early quests too.

Push all new players into the Shadowlord/quest for the Fallen Sword story arc. Use the first 50 levels to get them hooked on this idea, and in the process give them 25 BP slots, 70 stam/hour, 1680 max stam. 5000 + bonus one time stam so they can make lots of mistakes and still stay on track. I liked that when I went back to do the epic quests - but for new players it means they can screw up and get back on track without getting frustrated and giving up. Eventually they will have to learn to manage stam, doing it from day one is alien to most players. Let it become an attraction, a difference, a challenge to players - that way this game could become intriguing!! We cannot easily re-engineer level structures beyond the first 50 because of the titans at 60. They have to be accounted for - though I think Lestus is a fabulous first awesome enemy and powerful agent of the Shadowlord that new players need to test themselves against. The Kraken... well it works on its own, just change the root entries into its realms.

Yes there are going to be exceptions - what about the Inferno Hammer origin etc. well, those could be included in the epic cycle - 30-50. I just think a lot of that content could be wiped out and made simpler and linear for new players. Older players can weep into their beards about the lost realms cut... guess what - they can become an event/seasonal/legendary/global activated realm - Mists of Avalon, with their own new challenges, nothing created need ever be lost.

Make the experience for new players much more direct 1-50, give them a plot to follow and get into. Beef them up regularly,let them see how upgrades work, and give them an incentive to work to upgrade themselves further. Use the epic quests to introduce them to elites, SE, inventing, PvP. Stop GvG and PvP below level 50. I see the introduction to PvP as a knight's quest, or assassins test - go and kill your mark/face your enemy in battle. To finish the epic quest cycle PvP must be played, but only against players who have never gotten beyond level 50 before - no-one can delevel back to this. Therefore everyone who learns to PvP does so against others who are only doing it for the first time also. Guilds, and GvG battles, that can be for 50+ when the bigger world gets entered.

Another short post from yours truly.

[DragonLord]

[*:3qby6vsi]10 Backpack slots
[*:3qby6vsi]Max Stamina pool = to 24 hours worth of stamina gain (excludes Guild stamina structures bonuses)
[*:3qby6vsi]Some type of set needs to be gained during the tutorial.. Item sets are a HUGE part of the game and something that should be shown at the very start..
[*:3qby6vsi]Potions - one invented for a quest during the tutorial ..something beneficial like Adept Learner or Librarian. particuraly one that can be invented again and again..
[*:3qby6vsi]Bound FSP used for character upgrades only.. i don't care if its just for the first 10, 25, etc levels or for every level. some type of information and addiction :twisted: of the game's currency needs to be introduced early on.. encourage level gains..
just some ones off the top of my head so far..

I'd not argue with any of those options. GvG farming has to be stopped at the VERY low level. Players need time to get some knowledge of the game before being battered every which way. I'd agree that players should reach L50 or so before they are eligible to be hit in GvG (but, with a warning, say at Level 45, that a new aspect of the game is about to open up for them).

Actually, thinking about it - extend that even further ... Players have to advance in order to participate in new events. Say ... for instance ...

Level 1 - Can hunt ..

Level 25 - Can PvP, but only against players of their current level but then, as they level up, the window expands to +/- 5 when they hit Level 30 and then normal progression bands therein after

Level 50 - Can participate in GvG conflicts, but, again, only against +25 levels higher, the +/- 25 coming into effect once they reach Level 75

etc etc.

I sometimes wonder that new players, with pretty much access to everything from day 1 (I know that's not literally the case) feel overwhelmed. Staggering it may be an easier progression for them to adapt to.

GvG at level 50 and above only? Then only hit levels +25 above you? No way mate. Big NO, huge NO, humongous NO. GvG only affects a players gear. No xp is lost. If the Guild is not prepared to help with repair costs that member has an option. Join another Guild that will! I really don't see how being hit in a GvG conflict would turn players away from the game. In fact the opposite may be true. Player is in a Guild, has been hit in GvG, no to happy about it, wants to hit back. Has a partner in Guild, they also want to hit back. Guild supports their conflict.They hit back, they win. Players are happy, players stay with Fallen Sword. Guild gets RP, nice

Cheers.

wil72

Your post, as far is it goes, is correct. Yes, GvG only affects gear, but a new player doesn't know that - all he sees in his log is that he's been hit multiple times for, apparently, no reason. Would that make you stick around ? - it wouldn't with me...

[RebornJedi]

plus log clutter isn't fun.. lets not forget about the possibility of using Spell Breaker on new players to take away their buffs.. possible buzzkills

[uhsword]

I just said that... and log clutter is not something to be too stressed about it (and there are those new players first timers including old ones who don't check their log) as the majority of starters are concerned about other things like.. pretending there's no log clutter in the first place :wink:

[wil72]

[*:1czz3p7w]10 Backpack slots
[*:1czz3p7w]Max Stamina pool = to 24 hours worth of stamina gain (excludes Guild stamina structures bonuses)
[*:1czz3p7w]Some type of set needs to be gained during the tutorial.. Item sets are a HUGE part of the game and something that should be shown at the very start..
[*:1czz3p7w]Potions - one invented for a quest during the tutorial ..something beneficial like Adept Learner or Librarian. particuraly one that can be invented again and again..
[*:1czz3p7w]Bound FSP used for character upgrades only.. i don't care if its just for the first 10, 25, etc levels or for every level. some type of information and addiction :twisted: of the game's currency needs to be introduced early on.. encourage level gains..
just some ones off the top of my head so far..

I'd not argue with any of those options. GvG farming has to be stopped at the VERY low level. Players need time to get some knowledge of the game before being battered every which way. I'd agree that players should reach L50 or so before they are eligible to be hit in GvG (but, with a warning, say at Level 45, that a new aspect of the game is about to open up for them).

Actually, thinking about it - extend that even further ... Players have to advance in order to participate in new events. Say ... for instance ...

Level 1 - Can hunt ..

Level 25 - Can PvP, but only against players of their current level but then, as they level up, the window expands to +/- 5 when they hit Level 30 and then normal progression bands therein after

Level 50 - Can participate in GvG conflicts, but, again, only against +25 levels higher, the +/- 25 coming into effect once they reach Level 75

etc etc.

I sometimes wonder that new players, with pretty much access to everything from day 1 (I know that's not literally the case) feel overwhelmed. Staggering it may be an easier progression for them to adapt to.

GvG at level 50 and above only? Then only hit levels +25 above you? No way mate. Big NO, huge NO, humongous NO. GvG only affects a players gear. No xp is lost. If the Guild is not prepared to help with repair costs that member has an option. Join another Guild that will! I really don't see how being hit in a GvG conflict would turn players away from the game. In fact the opposite may be true. Player is in a Guild, has been hit in GvG, no to happy about it, wants to hit back. Has a partner in Guild, they also want to hit back. Guild supports their conflict.They hit back, they win. Players are happy, players stay with Fallen Sword. Guild gets RP, nice

Cheers.

wil72

Your post, as far is it goes, is correct. Yes, GvG only affects gear, but a new player doesn't know that - all he sees in his log is that he's been hit multiple times for, apparently, no reason. Would that make you stick around ? - it wouldn't with me...

Highlighted is pure assumption, nothing more.

Being hit in GvG did make me stick around. It also encouraged me to learn about GvG/PvP buffs and gear. It also encouraged me to help my Guild members, new and old to the game, understand what GvG is all about and how being good at it can be beneficial to a Guild. RP is nice but reputation is better.

" Log clutter is a put off to new players ". Man, what next.....scary monsters?

Cheers.

wil72

[Gutie]

" Log clutter is a put off to new players ". Man, what next.....scary monsters?

Cheers.

wil72

I lol'd. But I think we can all agree that streamlining content like Belaric suggested 1-50 is a good idea, correct?

[berten]

I have seen many ideas that would improve the game for starters. Its not so much to do more advertising to get more starters, the idea is to keep more of those starters once they join up.

I like the idea to make the first 50 levels more streamlined. The rest of the game is very linear, only the first levels are very cluttered and complicated. That doesnt make any sense. Many starters get stuck somewhere in there.

I like the idea to select an active quest and show those steps on the world screen. in Eldevin they are doing that, and it works. Right now when you are doing a complicated quest you need to open 2 pages, one with the world and one with your questbook.

I still like the idea of putting a limit on gvg. Only 1 person didnt like it so far. I dont really see any downside on implementing that. We are cutting in our own skin by doing that, but its for the benefit of the game in general. Many guilds rely on gvg as a source of income, but i am certain that that income will not dry out. The gvg'ers will just level to the next beneficial level to gvg at. lvl 100 still has advantage over lvl 75. lvl 115 still has benefit over lvl 90. lvl 135 still has benefit over lvl 110. But at least then we are not doing it at the cost of fresh starters.

[Crzy]

Just throwing an extension out on the idea of extending the epic quest...Perhaps during that quest they can be given multiple 2-piece setups that are decent. Then at the end of the epic quest have the NPC give them a BOUND Legendary potion consisting of a level 300 Keen Edge and level 200 Smashing Hammer. Give a notice that in order to use this potion they must equip at least 2 of those setups. Also make them take note of the added stats that are given. Then have them go after an elite that will be EASILY destroyed with these new buffs on.

This will show them the importance of multi-set setups because let's face it, they're an important part of hunting and GVG/PVP. Not only that but it'll give them a small taste of great buffs to come. I personally level up because I want to unlock the next Buff Tier and I feel like that's an important goal to keep people playing. If they feel they're getting stronger skills, they'll keep interest longer.

The only issue I see with this happening is the fact that most guilds will instantly equip their newbies with the very best Legendary gear once they join. So they might trash or never use the 2-piece setups they were given during that 50 levels. Would there be any way to make these REQUIRED to be used and not destroyable until after the Elite is slain?

If the GVG target cap was set to 75-100 then guilds wouldn't have to worry about equipping their newbies in the very best. That could be one solution to making it so they will hold onto their new setups. Of course these new setups would require more starting Backpack slots to hold until they fully finish the epic quest.

[Maury Bund]

I agree with Belaric that the first 50 levels need to be streamlined into a single linear formula. Not necessarily gut them all, but when a player starts, drop them into a realm that has only 1 place to go. There should be 1 level 1 quest for them to hit in their area. 1 level 2, 1 level 3 and so on for awhile until they get the gist of it. Let them know that they can go back and finish the other old early quests at any time they choose, but following the path set before them will yield the best results. The Mountain Path is too chaotic for a new player these days to figure out what is going on. It was confusing when I started 5 years ago, lord knows how bad it is for a player starting off today. Removing all the unneeded quests on this path is not the best option, because it will not allow some completionistic players to do all they want. Just look at the Plague and Ursa quests that still find favor when they are put into the Scavenging Caves.

On the multi-set use that prevails throughout FS, that is highly dependent on buffs to make them work the best. Many brand new players will not know what buffs will suit them best, nor will they want to spend gold or FSP on them from the starting line. I think that for the first 25 levels, a player should be able to safely 2-hit kill at worst with common items that are dropped by the creatures that they have already encountered.

I would think the starter quests should introduce them to proper mechanics of the game. Let the first 7 or 8 levels of creatures have less damage than the Armor they can amass with no enhancements on the creatures, so they can get the swing of Damage vs HP+Armor. For levels 8-10, introduce PS and CH so they can see that Armor will not always protect them. The next 10 levels should allow for an easily hunting set using Defense as a protection so they understand how Attack vs Defense are related.

By understanding the game mechanics, they will then be in a better position for doing PvP when they reach level 25.

These starter realms should also start of small, like a 3x3 for level 1, 4x4 for level 2, and slowly start increasing the size so creature density remains high until they can actually afford to buy buffs, even cheaply, like AM.

[BigGrim]

You can add to that new players have no gold protection any longer so once they hit 25 even if its within their 13 day protection they get robbed.that is hardly a way to keep new players .

Hm. That's definitely something to consider. I was not aware that was occurring.

I still think the starting of this game needs more work.. new players should have their hands held a little tighter and their upgrades should be a little fuller. we need to keep the new blood around long enough for them to start getting hooked.

HCS or the community needs to point new players in the right direction when starting off the game. those Epic quests should be the first thing you do....

How would you suggest we point them in the right direction? I agree that the Epic Quest should be one of the first things you do. It was designed to boost you through the first 30 odd levels in one sitting.

Maybe when a person joins, HCS should point them to a forum thread (that we can create) that would explain things a bit (not leading them by the hand though) with a few pitfalls and, such in the game.

1. Gear ideas for their level range (not expensive but, good setups).
2. Buffs you need for your range.
3. How to use the Wiki (or TUFS Guide). Many players don't know how to read location coordinates even at the higher levels.

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.

More needs to be done.

Do you have any ideas as to what we could do?

[watagashi]

Do you have any ideas as to what we could do?

Actually I did there was a post here yesterday called FS economy can we save the game thats been deleted. While there was a bunch of bickering about shards or something I put almost a whole page about this thread and other subjects,,, sure hope someone read it before it was deleted

The main stuff I put out there was,,,,

at 5 years a game is VERY lucky to still be going and perhaps its not about finding more new people (and to op I think everyone in the world has seen the banner ad) perhaps its time to bring the game to a place where those who are still here can continue to enjoy it while other *cough eldevin* stuff can take center stage letting us keep the servers running and let FS become that favorite place we still play at.

I also asked for some of the things discussed but never really added such as the GvG "chess game" the swapout of SEs for new ones and rotating the old and new in and out regularly (along with recipes to get the old gear out of circulation) and also asked for good old fashioned LE events in realms instead of always in caves but at the same time make caves more active by making a rotation on them especially for parts that have recipes as well

There was a part about adding more RP, pvp, cave, LE and other gear

There was a part that may not be what they want to hear but was needed to be said since I found it impossable to get a phoenix medal and maybe just maybe fixing a couple of the reasons they gave for not wanting to return could have helped

and finally a bit about how to bring in the revenue from the players you still have instead of trying to find new ones since in my experiance by now everyone has heard of FS and been here done that and it might be better to keep what ya got than have them tune out while trying to find new people.

[uhsword]

I and others did earlier grend :wink: guess it was deemed not appropriate so any effort or comments put through was lunged by them; it happens. Let's hope this one doesn't fall in the trash bin too and be even more civilized...

[yodamus]

What i find more disturbing is that new players dont get time to get the hang of the game. There is a lvl 25 minimum level for pvp, but that doesnt include gvg. That has bothered me for a long time. A lvl 1 guy can get farmed by a lvl 25 guy.

Whenever i try to recruit gvg'ers, most of them are between lvl 25 and lvl 50. Not that i mind, its the easiest level to gvg at. But in fact, all those gvg'ers are farming the crap out of fresh starters who havent even explored the game yet.

Gvg is pretty harmless you say. i know that, but those fresh starters dont know that yet. On top of that: the guilds who actively recruit fresh starting players, end up on the hit list of those gvg'ers. Resulting in less and less guilds accepting fresh blood, they all want to recruit guys who are allready out of the danger zone.

Those early levels is the moment when a new guy decides if he will keep playing or not. So we should let them explore and learn the game, everybody does that in their own pace. Give them some time.

From a marketing point of view it also makes sense to have a level limit on gvg. While we are talking about advertisements, we all know there is a cost involved to that. Lets say it costs HCS 0.10$ for each click on their advertisement. Lets assume that 1 out of 10 clickers actually makes an acount. So the cost per new acount would be 1$. Now if we would have 100 fresh starters that would cost HCS 100$. Out of those 100 starters alot of guys will decide that this game doesnt suit them, for whatever reason, not only gvg. I would guess around 10% of them keeps playing. Those 10 guys now have cost HCS 100$. That is 10$ per player. If they would be able to keep 20 players out of 100, that means that the cost per new players is cut in half, only 5$ per player.

I am not saying that those numbers would apply if there was a limit to gvg. But it sure would help. New starters must be spoiled, to get hooked to the game. Once they are hooked, we can farm the crap out of them. If they are not hooked yet, they will just quit if we farm them too much.

Just a thing that has been bothering me for a while.

+1000, could not have said it better..THIS IS THE MAIN PROBELM WITH KEEPING NEWER PLAYERS IN THE GAME..ALLOWING THEM TO BE FARMED GVG STYLE..WAKE UP HCS AND FIX THIS..

[wil72]

I have seen many ideas that would improve the game for starters. Its not so much to do more advertising to get more starters, the idea is to keep more of those starters once they join up.

I like the idea to make the first 50 levels more streamlined. The rest of the game is very linear, only the first levels are very cluttered and complicated. That doesnt make any sense. Many starters get stuck somewhere in there.

I like the idea to select an active quest and show those steps on the world screen. in Eldevin they are doing that, and it works. Right now when you are doing a complicated quest you need to open 2 pages, one with the world and one with your questbook.

I still like the idea of putting a limit on gvg. Only 1 person didnt like it so far. I dont really see any downside on implementing that. We are cutting in our own skin by doing that, but its for the benefit of the game in general. Many guilds rely on gvg as a source of income, but i am certain that that income will not dry out. The gvg'ers will just level to the next beneficial level to gvg at. lvl 100 still has advantage over lvl 75. lvl 115 still has benefit over lvl 90. lvl 135 still has benefit over lvl 110. But at least then we are not doing it at the cost of fresh starters.

Put the the suggestion out to the masses. I doubt it will be well received mate.

And for someone to suggest that GvG attacks against new players is the main reason they leave all I can say is......How do you know this?

Cheers.

wil72

[berten]

I have seen many ideas that would improve the game for starters. Its not so much to do more advertising to get more starters, the idea is to keep more of those starters once they join up.

I like the idea to make the first 50 levels more streamlined. The rest of the game is very linear, only the first levels are very cluttered and complicated. That doesnt make any sense. Many starters get stuck somewhere in there.

I like the idea to select an active quest and show those steps on the world screen. in Eldevin they are doing that, and it works. Right now when you are doing a complicated quest you need to open 2 pages, one with the world and one with your questbook.

I still like the idea of putting a limit on gvg. Only 1 person didnt like it so far. I dont really see any downside on implementing that. We are cutting in our own skin by doing that, but its for the benefit of the game in general. Many guilds rely on gvg as a source of income, but i am certain that that income will not dry out. The gvg'ers will just level to the next beneficial level to gvg at. lvl 100 still has advantage over lvl 75. lvl 115 still has benefit over lvl 90. lvl 135 still has benefit over lvl 110. But at least then we are not doing it at the cost of fresh starters.

Put the the suggestion out to the masses. I doubt it will be well received mate.

And for someone to suggest that GvG attacks against new players is the main reason they leave all I can say is......How do you know this?

Cheers.

wil72

There are alot of guilds who rely on gvg as a source of income, many of those gvg'ers are lvl 50 and below, (including in my own guild). So i am certain that some of those would not be too keen on a level restriction. Although only 1 person opposed to the idea on the forums.

But those who think a bit further will realise that its for the benefit of the game as a whole. Gvg will just move to another level, a level where the targets are allready hooked to the game. When they are allready hooked, they will not be quitting so fast.

I cannot tell numbers of the people who quit short after they start. And i sure cannot tell their reasons to quit. I also didnt say that i knew any of those things. But i am certain that RP is a reason (or one of the reasons) for a part of those quitters. Not for all the quitters ofcourse.

I can do the same if you want to discuss that way: When you say that RP farming in the starting levels does no harm at all, then i can surely say that you are wrong. A discussion like that can go on and on and on, it reminds me of my childhood, so i will not get dragged into that.

A large number of players do agree its sick that a lvl 1 player can get farmed on the day that he signs up. This game is pretty complex to learn, real new players dont have a clue most of the time. I myself took a long while to get hooked, if RP would have existed back then, i bet i wouldnt have been here now.