HanzoRazor

Really?

I die in one hit now, the damage being boosted is not going to change anything towards me whatsoever, actually it will improve my chances as if people boost damage, I'm just going to have higher dodge.

 

But as you're intent blaming this stance on some perceived benefit I would gain, I'll just explain this to you as basically as I can.

 

More damage=More heal costs for enemy.

More heal costs=Less people attack you

People attacking less=Less afk deaths in WL (prioritizing easier targets)

Less afk deaths in WL=more credits saved from less heals

More credits+Less deaths=more wins via attacking as one has the credits.

 

So I repeat. ANY damage boosting is massively unbalanced.

Due to combat edge AND basic player behaviour to take the path of least resistance.

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

 

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I do enjoy the idea of only one colour gem per item, but even that is flawed.

9 crystal types, and on the standard dual scythes build, only 6 are of any actual use (as nobody will be boosting speed or an attacking skill they're not using)

 

4 slots, 6 potentials.

If armour is only boostable on armour and the attacking skill on a weapon, we're left with 5 realistic choices into 4 slots...

Very inflexible, not what this was designed for.

 

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So what now? Hard bonuses still very easy to work with - they'd behave similar to combat abilities.

 

My ideas so far:

 

All crystals>Hard bonus

Fire>Health bonus

Fire>Small bonus to all other stats

limit of 2 crystals of same colour per equip

2 limit+optional 3rd with penalty of unusable 4th.

 

 

If all give a hard bonus, and fire is either health/all others, fires get to keep their prestige as high value - they're still very useful.

 

 

The 2 crystals limit means that effectively 2 stats will need to be boosted at minimum, which at least opens up a paper/scissors/rock style system.

 

 

It'd be a lot easier to figure this out if you guys could help contribute your own ideas too, rather than just effectively agree/disagree. Like how suggestions forum works...

As for the last point, I was the one who first brought up the idea of flat bonuses on crystals if you go back and look.

Your statement that somehow I'm stating your anti-damage stance is somehow related to perceived benefits you would receive is self refuting.  I, in fact, used you as an example to refute your own statement that there is "no circumstance where boosting the damage stat is ever balanced."

What I have a problem with is you posting shoddy arguments, like that wonderful slippery slope and claiming that somehow they nullify all other positions, as if it's somehow a given that we all will somehow agree with you simply because you say it's been answered.

The fact is that all of these affect healing costs, accuracy means more hits, dodge means less, both affect hp costs as much as damage.  Your speculation that somehow this is going to translate to people attacking less in WL is highly questionable at best.

I do however agree with you on the limitations of only enhancing existing stats on items, which is why I initially proposed:

Crystals will grant a % increase to a stat based on their colour and state.

Shard: +1

Small: +2

Medium: +3

Large: +4

Perfect:  +5

Obviously, damage would only be applied to weapons, although I suppose you could put it on an amulet, since you can't actually hit anyone with an amulet it would be completely wasted.  Stat bonuses however apply to everything, so it would be conceivable that someone could have +20 accuracy tacked onto their titan.  Armour might have to be limited in application as well.

The other issue is that now Zorg is suggesting a 7 tier crystal system, which makes me feel your suggestion of 2 crystals/color/item is probably best, as a 28 increase to anything becomes ridiculous.

I'll repeat it again, there is no circumstance where boosting the damage stat is ever balanced.

If you'd care to argue this, swap down to dual swords for a week and tell me how you fare against newbie (untrained combat abilities) avas.

 

Now that is out of the way, alternatives are needed. I suggested a smaller boost to all other stats leaving an equal total, but that only works with percentages.

I disagree and find that your dismissive assumption that there is no circumstance is completely unwarranted.  I find it doubly ironic that it comes from you, since your 60 point build makes any boost to the damage stat pretty pointless, let alone all of those crystals into damage. Anything more than 1 is overkill.  Maybe this makes armour the best counter for you, but I wouldn't bother for my setup.  At most I'd restat for a slightly higher hp to compensate as I could get more stats out of the armour than I would have to shift into hp to survive the same number of hits.

It's more your thinking that's inflexible Aaron than the system.  Dodge and accuracy boosts rather than damage could shift the odds pretty considerably.  There are people who prefer rail gun along w/ tyran weapons for the accuracy and mixed weapons, which turns to more hits/less no effect hits.

If it remains percentage based though, then yes, I would agree with you, since the numbers on accuracy or dodge for gear are far smaller than the numbers for damage, thus the actual numerical values are very different, and there's no way to balance damage.  If all the numbers are equal then there's far more to be said for other items.

more I thinjk about this,    % gain should not be used and set   value should be used instead.      with 5 items,  if the stat only applies to item, then   you basically makes addons  less than desirable to upgrade.     and it limits the crystals that is most effective per each item.    by using set gain  (ie,  1point of dmg or armor,  2 point of stat and such)   it makes all 5 piece worth upgrading and allow flexiblity that we all want.  and yes s omeone  could do all 25 into dmg or armor.   but that is waht we want to see.  more variety.

This is pretty much what I've been saying.  It eliminates the issues. Just with with the 4 zorg had,  +20 damage is substantial, but it's nowhere near the massive boost of 40%.  It doesn't really change the system that much, it's still 2-3 hits to kill.  Even leaving it at +1/crystal level for everything 20 dodge or accuracy might actually be better as it affects the entire combat, not just the one weapon.  Eliminating the percentages also makes it such that boosting armor actually does cancel out the damage should someone choose to do so, rather than a tiny boost to armor under percentages.  There's always issues, but it evens out a lot more than percentage based boosts.

So i've been thinking about the numbers here and it occurs to me:

 

Say I put 4 perfect orange crystals on a Scythe. That increases the melee skill of that weapon by 40% from 40 to 56. An increase of 16 compared to the 450+ points we already have. That's about 3.55% change in stats per weapon I believe?

Damage on the other hand, makes a difference of 40% per weapon because your weapons are your only source of damage.

 

On average it takes about 4 or 5 successful hits with a Scythe to take down an avatar, who tend to have about 240 - 300 HP. I am not sure how skill translates to chance to damage, I would guess increasing the skill by x% increases chance to damage by x%. A 40% increase in damage makes it 3 - 4 hits to kill the same avatar instead. The increased skill is unlikely to on average make an additional damaging hit per fight, and so makes the use of fires the outrageously obvious choice, which wont lead to the variation we want.

This is why I suggested halving or even quartering the value for damage (fire crystals), it would keep it in line with the other items.  Further changing the percentage to flat bonuses on the attributes, melee/defense, and armor would keep them a bit higher, while not being op.  

Alternately making them all flat bonuses +1-+5 depending on quality would be a solid addition but not overpowered.  +20 damage, both minimum, and maximum, for maxing out a damage scythe would be nice without being ridiculous.  +20 dodge or accuracy on the same would be pretty desirable as well. +10 damage and +10 melee would essentially make a current cblade an improvement over the current scythe.

Pretty much all it comes down to is fire crystals need to be nerfed a bit however zorg wants to accomplish it.  Again the general plan is great though, balance issues aside this is probably the best way to achieve the variation your asking about ani.

With this upgrade though,  it has made cbomb and railgun much more valuable and csword and ammulets much less so.    oh well.    would be nice if we can trade in csword into cbomb or railgun for free. 

 

with 5 gears, you are taking about 20 slot total.  does the crystal affect the item stat only or full stat? I am assuming full stats, but not clear to me.    if it is full stat,    20 slot  200% dmg if all perfect fire, which is bit crazy.      if it is just item, then it is different, but then  adding crystals to addon is pretty much a waste.

 

 

can you clarify this a bit?  thanks.

My assumption was the crystals affected the stats on the item they were placed on.