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Legacy Roadmap 2014 Vote


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Poll: Legacy Roadmap Vote (97 member(s) have cast votes)

Which updates would you most like to see on Legacy?

  1. Rogue Viability (14 votes [6.19%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.19%

  2. Warfare Enhancements (35 votes [15.49%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.49%

  3. Warfare Shop Items (55 votes [24.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.34%

  4. Raid / Arena System (45 votes [19.91%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.91%

  5. Inventory Revamp (48 votes [21.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.24%

  6. Hospital Closing Time Removal (Small Change) (21 votes [9.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.29%

  7. Crystal Levelling (8 votes [3.54%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.54%

Vote

#41 RebornJedi

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 17:58

a gang side chat would be great.. don't understand why this was never introduced into teh game


 


#42 Kizaaz

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 19:39

Id figure id answer these as even though Ive been here quite a long time, Im not completely oblivious to how i felt back then

  1. Have you ever been Rogue, if you have been did you have fun as Rogue? yes, and i didnt care either way, i used it to switch gangs
  2. Are you still in the gang you started in? no, obviously not. I have spent over a year in each gang and settled in my "home".. based on experience not books
  3. Did someone direct you to a gang library or forum thread so you might understand your gangs politics? yes, but i never read those things. I prefer to experience the gang then read about it
  4. Did you need to ask for help on how to switch gangs if you did? i didnt need to ask, people say it on sc all the time back then haha
  5. How many clicks does it take to find sufficient info on your gang? Dont quite know what clicks have to do with it, you would still need to click to find out about gangs if you were rogue...but no not many
  6. How many clicks does it take to leave one gang, and join another of a players free choosing? 3 clicks to leave, 3ish to join another
  7. Do you feel everyone that has ever joined this gang was as capable and patient as you were?  Im going to say no, because everyone is different.. and Im NOT a patient person.. LOL
  8. Is Side Chat an inviting and helpful place for all players including rogues, newbies, and lowbies? Depending on the time of day, or who was online at the time
  9. Might links to choices within the new player tutorial to their gang options be helpful? Probably not
  10. Might it be easier to use the Wasteland if you don't have to worry about gaining territory first? no, I find the point of wasteland is to gain territory.. why on earth would i go in wasteland if not to gain territory...

 

 My answers are above, take them as you will, but you may say im too "old" to answer them but thats not the case.

 

I also dont understand the concept of "how many clicks to find out about your gang."

I didnt take many clicks because thats what rank 11's are for.. They lay out everything you need to knwo and snwer questions.
Like i said i didnt read any of the library books, whoops, but i felt it was easier to understand a gang by being a part of it.. not reading about what it :"should" be like, might just be me but meh.

But also, if you are rogue and you are to "research" the gangs.. how many clicks would that take.. Oh.. about just as much.. So that point is really voided as a positive as well as a negative.

 

Ive said this in the previous thread, As a guide for the game i had the opportunity to talk to the newbies and lower levels, and not one of them left, or had a problem with being in the gang from the start. Many have thrived in their home gang, others choose to leave eventually.. and many dont play because theyre not so into text based games.



#43 Nastasha

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 11:10

@ Kizaaz

 

Thank you very much for addressing these points!

 

Please bare with me as I get more clarity on your answers.

 

Re: if you have been did you have fun as Rogue?

"yes, and i didnt care either way, i used it to switch gangs"

 

I am curious of why you had fun as Rogue?

 

Rogue viability still makes the Rogues groups a transition point. From start as well as middle-points. This would not change. It is great you don't care either way, as it won't negatively effect yours or other player experiences. It still shouldn't be as fun as being a gang at all. I still hold and will forever hold that "Rogues" should be a transition point and can still regardless of Rogue Viability being a reality or not. It might just become a tad less boring and not be as much of a minority class is all. We might have more then just FatTony chilling in Roguatory. No loss, only gains.

 

Follow-up question A: "Why did you have fun as Rogue compared to being in a gang?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Would it truly upset you if transition from Rogue to new gang was slightly more enjoyable (able to enter wasteland for those that choose to)?"

 

Follow-up question C: "In either case, do you feel your view is a reflection of every single new player we might get into the future?"

 

 

Re: Are you still in the gang you started in?

"no, obviously not."

 

Sorry, it wasn't obvious to me. So I am correct in assuming the auto-assign algorithm did not in fact place you in the gang you had hoped for? Also I am curious if you had less initial patriotism to said gang you were in before you made the choice to move, and more for the gang you did move to?

 

Follow-up question A: "Can you try and imagine if you were actually able to choose your initial gang?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Might you have had a better player experience early in if you felt more in control at the start?"

 

 

Re: Did someone direct you to a gang library or forum thread so you might understand your gangs politics?

"yes, but i never read those things. I prefer to experience the gang then read about it"

 

That leads me to believe the customs and expectations of you were not immediately obvious to you as a new player. It required further reading, or further learning. I can see that and that makes sense. However I am confused why you mentioned your last sentence, so I will as a follow-up question:

 

Follow-up question A: "Am I to believe that one can not both read about there gang politics, as well as experience it first hand? (is it a matter of either-or?)"

 

Follow-up question B: "Would Rogue Viability truly take away from that above choice/experience any player would have once they eventually move into a gang of their choosing?"

 

 

Re: Did you need to ask for help on how to switch gangs if you did?

"i didnt need to ask, people say it on sc all the time back then haha"

 

Well that is fortunate. Given that during that flurry of everyone (making their own choice) moving to the gang of their actual choosing, a lot of people were moving so it was a hot topic in SC. I am sure you can agree it is no longer a hot topic, so your experience is different now then new players.

 

Follow-up question: "Do you still answer or have you answered on side-chat or in messages questions of how to switch gangs?"

 

 

Re: How many clicks does it take to find sufficient info on your gang?

"Dont quite know what clicks have to do with it, you would still need to click to find out about gangs if you were rogue...but no not many"

 

That doesn't answer the question, but I can clarify as well as re-state the question; I personally feel it is not easy to navigate the game and make a simple choice related to gang membership. I believe that number of clicks has a lot to do with player experience (negative or positive) as if it is hard to do something, it adds to frustration and difficulty feeling they are able to do as they desire in-game. I also feel game developers know this, and desire to create a "seamless" experience for players, especially new ones. I know some game developers, and they do focus on perfect click counts. As a graphic designer myself, I can attest that click-counts are important in successful information dissemination and site viewer experience. A "learning curve" should be smooth and gradual, and in my view number of perfect clicks has a lot to do with how seamless an action is or is not in a game, and relates directly to player experience.

 

I feel new players currently run into "data smog", having to trip over non-related information to get to what they are looking for. I feel this contributes (not is the only or leading cause) to added and unnecessary frustration, and lower then possible positive player experience.

 

Let it be known, I am still waiting for someone to answer this question. "How many clicks does it take to get to the center of your gangs most important information?"

 

Clarifying question: Might there be a way to make finding information on any gang or non-gang easier? If so, might that change make new as well as present players happy or unhappy?

 

 

Re: How many clicks does it take to leave one gang, and join another of a players free choosing?

"3 clicks to leave, 3ish to join another"

 

I am skeptical, and I do not believe this is the case. I will go on record and say that if you prove this with screenshots that it is that easy to "Leave Gang", then less then five clicks to "Join Gang" of any selection (reputation included in this discussion) I will admit I am incorrect if you prove this point. That would make my argument about this being too complex for new players a moot point. Please prove me wrong?

 

Follow-up question: Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a screen-shot walk-through of how to "leave a gang" and "join a gang" of any variation is less then 10 clicks? If so, please show. If not, why not?

 

 

Re: Do you feel everyone that has ever joined this gang was as capable and patient as you were ?

"Im going to say no, because everyone is different.. and Im NOT a patient person.. LOL"

 

Thank you very much. And sorry for stating my question in that way, I meant not to make a judgement. I agree, everyone is different as far as their patience level, especially when it comes to learning a new game.

 

So if everyone is different, might it make sense to plan for new players to have a low-capacity for learning/patience instead of a high one? Would you agree that this process can be simplified in some creative way to engage more people then presently are?

 

 

Re: Is Side Chat an inviting and helpful place for all players including rogues, newbies, and lowbies?

"Depending on the time of day, or who was online at the time"

 

Thank you. I tend to agree. I feel Side Chat is a very hit-or miss resource for newbies, and at many times counter-productive and harmful resource for newbies. I think we are all pretty aware of this, so I will see if we can finalize this train of thought.

 

 

Follow-up question: "Yes or no. Is it a matter of fact that presently Side Chat is an unreliable/inconsistent source of important information for brand new players?"

 

 

Re: Might links to choices within the new player tutorial to their gang options be helpful?

"Probably not"

 

I feel there may be a miscommunication due to my vague wording of that question. Perhaps you can expand on your view related directly to this topic. I will try and clarify my question.

 

Follow-up question: "Hypothetically, would an updated player tutorial with links to gang options be helpful to new players? In either case, why?"

 

 

Re: Might it be easier to use the Wasteland if you don't have to worry about gaining territory first?

"no, I find the point of wasteland is to gain territory.. why on earth would i go in wasteland if not to gain territory..."

 

Follow-up question A: "Might a secondary use of wasteland be possible, such as to show new players a glimpse at what gang territory and the wasteland is in the first place?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Might a hypothetical Rogue Wastelander realize his Rogue option is not as cool as moving to a gang of their choosing, and interacting on the Wasteland help in their decision?"

 

 

Re: I didnt take many clicks because thats what rank 11's are for

 

This statement seems like an oxymoron to me. It is a bit ironic. It sounds like you are saying because switching gangs is confusing, reaching out to rank 11s will do the task for them? Or (pardon my confusion) that rank 11s have a magic ability to move new players to any gangs with a simple request? In my mind, one must first realize they are confused (after lots of clicking around), then find out who the rank 11s are, then send the message, then wait for response, perhaps some correspondence back and forth (adding to the click count), then eventually stumble some more to figure it out. Only to find they may be stuck in Roguatory till they lower their reputation, while if they knew about rep and the choice to move earlier before they had to ask about it, this whole process would have gone smoother and they would have been more pleased. That is how I think.

 

In the best case scenario perhaps rank 11s immediately send a message to new players, and within the welcome message is a direct link to the button to change gangs? With that said;

 

My question A: "Yes or no? Is it common practice for gang welcome messages to make switching gangs simple for every new player?"

 

My question B: "Yes or no. Doesn't communicating with a rank 11 take additional perfect clicks for a player to perform their desired goal, rather then if they knew how to do it on their own?"

 

My question C: "Yes or no. Would it be a bad thing if rank 11's were able to focus more on polishing player's advanced learning/playing, instead of basic game mechanic teaching?"

 

 

Re: "i felt it was easier to understand a gang by being a part of it.."

 

I don't disagree in the least. The best way to understand something is to experience it. I am not talking about the best way for players to experience something, I am talking about the best way for new players to learn something in order to make an informed choice. These are related, but still are entirely different things. I personally feel a new player will have more patriotism and a more positive player experience, if the gang they enter first was one of their own choosing. They might also be excited to see how simple making a choice is.

 

My question A: "Yes or No? Do you mean to say that you believe Rogue Viability would mean no new players are ever able to leave Rogues?"

 

My question B: "Yes or No? Do you believe Rogue Viability would make moving to a gang of their choice impossible?"

 

My question C: "Yes or No? Do you truly feel Rogue Viability would make Rogues the only/most attractive option for every single new player?"

 

 

Re: But also, if you are rogue and you are to "research" the gangs.. how many clicks would that take.. Oh.. about just as much.. So that point is really voided as a positive as well as a negative.

 

I am very confused by this statement/point/view. Can you help me understand what you are trying to express? In my mind, one must a.) know they have an option first in order to b.) research said options in order to c.) make an informed player-driven decision. That is assuming they are brand new to the game of course.

 

With that assumption in mind, and in our present system, doesn't it take different clicks for a player to realize for sure they are in a gang, then the clicks it will take for them to research said gang, then a new set of clicks to leave a gang, then a new set of clicks to get to the gang of their primary choice anyways? That being Clicks + Clicks + Clicks + Clicks and so on. In my mind mouse clicks are not reduced by carrying out an additional action.

 

Once again, I believe that higher number of click counts create larger margin of error as well as a lowered probability players will enjoy and/or follow through with the desired action. They know exactly how to close out a tab, but not exactly how to change gangs. No one wants to fumble around a site or a game confused, and the answer of "message a rank 11" is in its self confusing to a new player. Nor will you know that is their struggle unless you are either in their head or have hacked their computer. Which is silly of course.

 

Follow-up question: "Yes or No? Do you believe a majority of players of any given game would prefer to be confused, over having a seamless experience?"

 

 

Re: not one of them left, or had a problem with being in the gang from the start

 

I thought I already talked about this in the game forums when you brought this up, but I will try and form a question that helps make my point clearer.

 

My question A: "Yes or No? Did every player you speak to stay playing the game?"

 

My question B: "Yes or No? Might the players that did leave not have told you exactly why they left?"

 

My question C: "Assuming players left, did you remain in contact with those that did and have them answer why exactly they left in detail?"

 

My question D: "Might what you heard from some players be a poor reflection of why all players stop playing?"

 

My question E: "Yes or No? Might more players stick around, if doing things they want to do in-game was easier?"

 

 

My question F: "Why specifically is forcing a gang choice on new players a good idea (from a player experience view), and how exactly does that fit into the lore of Legacy?"

 

Most important question: "if you realized you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions, would you admit you made a mistake? Would it contribute to you forming a new opinion?"


Edited by Nastasha, 12 December 2014 - 11:12.

Less esthetics, more fixes!

#WeThePeople!

 

www.bit.ly/WTP-Roadmap

 


#44 HappyDays

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 12:56

Holy fiddle sticks. That is one massive post above I will never be reading :lol:



#45 Kizaaz

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 21:02

@Nastasha, I will split this into 2 parts-

answering your questions comes after

 

RE: I am curious of why you had fun as Rogue?

 
You seem to have misread my comment. You asked a two-part question... My yes, was to the first part... "have you ever been rogue"

 

 

RE: Sorry, it wasn't obvious to me. So I am correct in assuming the auto-assign algorithm did not in fact place you in the gang you had hoped for? Also I am curious if you had less initial patriotism to said gang you were in before you made the choice to move, and more for the gang you did move to?

I assumed it was obvious because in my previous stated comments, I had already mentioned I was not in my home gang... and we were also in DF together. yet Im not in that now, so it should have been obvious

No, you are not correct in assuming, since I hadnt hoped for a certain gang at all. I shared the same amount of "patriotism" as you call it in all gangs that I was in. I spent over a year in each gang before I settled here in OC.

 

 

That leads me to believe the customs and expectations of you were not immediately obvious to you as a new player. It required further reading, or further learning. I can see that and that makes sense. However I am confused why you mentioned your last sentence

 

Let me rephrase this so its better understanding.. I could read the books all day. and it would NEVER prepare me for the gang. I started in Bod, which is the gang of honor. It never confused me

what that meant. One look at the forums or even chatting with a rank 11, showed me the personality and if the rank 11 does their welcome message right, you will also get a feel for what the gang stands for. The customs and expectations were never not obvious to me. For the record.

 

 

RE: Well that is fortunate. Given that during that flurry of everyone (making their own choice) moving to the gang of their actual choosing, a lot of people were moving so it was a hot topic in SC. I am sure you can agree it is no longer a hot topic, so your experience is different now then new players.

 

 

I dont quite understand what this has to do with me... There was never an abundance of "moving to the gang of their actual choosing"...It was the same amount of people moving when I started that there is now.. Nor was it a "hot topic" so no, I will not agree with that statement. and It is not different from when I was new..


RE: I am skeptical, and I do not believe this is the case. I will go on record and say that if you prove this with screenshots that it is that easy to "Leave Gang", then less then five clicks to "Join Gang" of any selection (reputation included in this discussion) I will admit I am incorrect if you prove this point. That would make my argument about this being too complex for new players a moot point. Please prove me wrong?

 

I  will provide screenshots if i really need to... Cuz it does take 3 ( 4 with confirmation screen) to leave a gang.
And also. to join gang is also less than 5, reputation should not have any effect on this because if they have enough reputation to not allow them into a gang... then they are no longer "new players" Imo.
Not to mention you keep talking about levels 1-5... at those levels you would NEVER EVER EVER have too much rep to join a gang.

 

 

RE: Thank you. I tend to agree. I feel Side Chat is a very hit-or miss resource for newbies, and at many times counter-productive and harmful resource for newbies. I think we are all pretty aware of this, so I will see if we can finalize this train of thought.

 

This is what guides and rank 11s are for, Unfortuneatly sidechat is not always going to be a reliable resource. But believe it or not.. its gotten way better

RE: This statement seems like an oxymoron to me. It is a bit ironic. It sounds like you are saying because switching gangs is confusing, reaching out to rank 11s will do the task for them? Or (pardon my confusion) that rank 11s have a magic ability to move new players to any gangs with a simple request? In my mind, one must first realize they are confused (after lots of clicking around), then find out who the rank 11s are, then send the message, then wait for response, perhaps some correspondence back and forth (adding to the click count), then eventually stumble some more to figure it out. Only to find they may be stuck in Roguatory till they lower their reputation, while if they knew about rep and the choice to move earlier before they had to ask about it, this whole process would have gone smoother and they would have been more pleased. That is how I think.


To be honest if you didnt leave out the key point to that paragraph.. it would make more sense.. I said it doesnt take many clicks to FIND OUT ABOUT YOUR GANG, because thats what a lot of the rank 11's cover. I wasnt talking about how to leave a gang.
You must not know about rank 11's or their jobs.. theyre jobs are to message the new players to the gang, introduce them to the funcinality of the gang, as well as help them with any questions or concerns they may have. THey also administer a test to rank up that shows they know how to navigate around the game/gang aspects ;)
So to say they must figure out who the rank 11s are and message them is a little ignorant of you on the system of rank 11s.

 

 

RE: In the best case scenario perhaps rank 11s immediately send a message to new players, and within the welcome message is a direct link to the button to change gangs?


uh no, A rank 11 is not going to advertise how to leave their gang.. thats preposterous.. Now a guide, that is a person who could do that, without the feeling of betraying their gang..Also.. that is what rank 11s do.. they send the message to new players when they come to the gang.. Again please please please, understand ranks before you talk about them.

 

 

RE: I don't disagree in the least. The best way to understand something is to experience it. I am not talking about the best way for players to experience something, I am talking about the best way for new players to learn something in order to make an informed choice. These are related, but still are entirely different things. I personally feel a new player will have more patriotism and a more positive player experience, if the gang they enter first was one of their own choosing. They might also be excited to see how simple making a choice is.

 

 

Again.. they could read all they want about a gang and be like.. you know what.. I LOVE the fact DARKFLAME roleplays, and they serve cain etc etc.. but when they get there they see its not all role play, etc etc... How is that an informed decision? I'll keep it simple.. it's not.

 

 

RE: I am very confused by this statement/point/view. Can you help me understand what you are trying to express? In my mind, one must a.) know they have an option first in order to b.) research said options in order to c.) make an informed player-driven decision. That is assuming they are brand new to the game of course.

 

You brought up the amount of clicks being a negative thing if it takes to long to find, so you used it as a negative towards auto assigning.. well the SAME logic could be used for Rogue assignment.. They still have to click to find things do they not? Still the amount of clicks is relevent to you correct?.. so that makes the clicking aspect. NULL AND VOID. as they counteract each other.





 


Edited by Kizaaz, 12 December 2014 - 21:04.


#46 Kizaaz

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 21:52

@Nastasha

 

Follow-up question A: "Why did you have fun as Rogue compared to being in a gang?"
Not answering because you didnt read my answer correctly so it is pointless

 

Follow-up question B: "Would it truly upset you if transition from Rogue to new gang was slightly more enjoyable (able to enter wasteland for those that choose to)?"

 You're choice of words is astounding to get your point across. It reminds me of the lawyers I know.
Personally, ya it honestly would upset me about the wasteland thing... Should being rogue be a lil ore enjoyable sure why not.. but wasteland.. NO

Follow-up question C: "In either case, do you feel your view is a reflection of every single new player we might get into the future?"

again, your choice of words is astounding,. No obviously I am not going to have the same views as every single new player...(As you can clearly see our views are not the same here), \
But the same could be said about your views.  If YOUR view a reflection of every single new player we might get in the future? Goes both ways.

 

Follow-up question A: "Can you try and imagine if you were actually able to choose your initial gang?"

Ive answered this somewhere before. I dont like to choose my own gang. I would rather be put somewhere, i honestly would. Ive imagined it and i dont like choosing. end of story
 

Follow-up question B: "Might you have had a better player experience early in if you felt more in control at the start?"

I loved my player experience so no, i dont think it could have been better. It has nothing to do with control. Its the people that make the experience


Follow-up question A: "Am I to believe that one can not both read about there gang politics, as well as experience it first hand? (is it a matter of either-or?)"

Did I say that anywhere in my post? No, I didnt. Your questions asked SPECIFICALLY about MY experience. I have already explained my stance on this when it comes to learning about the gang.
You can read all you want in a damn library book about a gang, and fall in love with what is written on the pages... but then shattered when you get there and find it completely different.
For example Ill use TC this time.
They are corrupt, or at least meant to be. Yet last time i was there it was constant Penis jokes and the like.. Not at all like it was in the "research" you would find.


Follow-up question: "Do you still answer or have you answered on side-chat or in messages questions of how to switch gangs?"

Actually if asked I will answer, but majority dont ask actually because I have a feeling its pretty easy to find ;)


Follow-up question: Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a screen-shot walk-through of how to "leave a gang" and "join a gang" of any variation is less then 10 clicks? If so, please show. If not, why not?

Yes, I can as I have explained before. When Rep is not taken into account. (Which it shouldnt at the levels you are claiming are leaving (1-5), or if you are higher then that if you have enough rep to not be able to join a gang.. you are not a new player anymore
I cannot show you the how to join a gang as I am not leaving y gang to take screenshots for this.. sorry cant do that


So if everyone is different, might it make sense to plan for new players to have a low-capacity for learning/patience instead of a high one?

I said I had low, very low patience... if I can get through it many people can..

Yes or no. Is it a matter of fact that presently Side Chat is an unreliable/inconsistent source of important information for brand new players?"

BOTH, it has gotten a lot better since I was a newbie. They actually help now, so no.. presently... its not unreliable source of information.



Follow-up question A: "Might a secondary use of wasteland be possible, such as to show new players a glimpse at what gang territory and the wasteland is in the first place?"

Anything is possible really... so yes it would be possible, but it is not something that would better enhance the game.. sorry it just wouldnt be


Follow-up question B: "Might a hypothetical Rogue Wastelander realize his Rogue option is not as cool as moving to a gang of their choosing, and interacting on the Wasteland help in their decision?"

If there was no rogue wastelander.. then this question wouldn't even need to be asked. |
Already there is no rogues allowed in wastelands, so they would join a gang to join wastelands...what your suggesting is adding an unnecessary step to the equation.
Wasteland is for gangs..Not rogues


My question A: "Yes or no? Is it common practice for gang welcome messages to make switching gangs simple for every new player?"

No, why would a gang advertise how to leave their gang. IF asked they will answer but its not in their welcome message that's just idiotic to be honest

My question B: "Yes or no. Doesn't communicating with a rank 11 take additional perfect clicks for a player to perform their desired goal, rather then if they knew how to do it on their own?"

I dont understand how being rogue is going to teach you all these new things, and in a quick time, faster and more efficiently then another player..Unless I'm missing this thing about clicking ( because honestly the clicking point is about as moot and pointless as they come),
I found it easier to have a fellow gang member tell me where to find things, ( or guides) then it did for tutorials.

My question C: "Yes or no. Would it be a bad thing if rank 11's were able to focus more on polishing player's advanced learning/playing, instead of basic game mechanic teaching?"

Rank 11s job are to introduce the newbies to the gang, its politics, and basic game mechanics. I dont quite know what you mean about this first part though.. But from what i understand.
I think it would be more detrimental then helpful.


My question A: "Yes or No? Do you mean to say that you believe Rogue Viability would mean no new players are ever able to leave Rogues?"

Ok for one this cannot be a yes or no question because You word it so that if i said one thing, it proves your point, and if i say another thing it makes me look like an ignorant idiot.
Ive said this from the start, my experience was best learned by interactions not stupid library books. I AM NOT LIKE EVERYONE, I dont know how you can just lump all the newbies together in
these questions.. I really dont.
I dont understand where you go the " No new players are ever able to leave rogues" idea came from.. I never said it, nor did i Insinuate it...


My question B: "Yes or No? Do you believe Rogue Viability would make moving to a gang of their choice impossible?"

Im about to skip some of these questions based on the fact your wording questions and making them yes or no only answer but yet you word them that the only plausible answer that doesnt make me look like an idiot is the one you can run with to make your point.
Lawyers, again do this all the time.. they're called leading questions...

I never said it would make their choice impossible.. never even mentioned it.. where did this even come from ?

 

Follow-up question: "Yes or No? Do you believe a majority of players of any given game would prefer to be confused, over having a seamless experience?"

This is the worst leading question I have ever seen.
OF COURSE people don't want to be flippin confused.. doesn't mean that this game is  as confusing as you keep saying it is. I would be stupid to say " ya! thats totally what people want"..because obviously they don't...

so the only plausible answer is no.. and therefore you think it proves your point.. but in truth. It shows you can have a proper question and answer debate without trying to make the odds in your favor..

 

My question A: "Yes or No? Did every player you speak to stay playing the game?"

No, obviously not. Since i said some of the players have told me why they LEFT...so if they left.. they didnt stay playing the game did they..

My question B: "Yes or No? Might the players that did leave not have told you exactly why they left?"

Leading question.
Well considering majority of the players who have told me why they left were people were people i have continuous contact with through the guide job (answer questions sending revives, etc etc) I would have to say they have no reason to not tell me


My question C: "Assuming players left, did you remain in contact with those that did and have them answer why exactly they left in detail?"

Uh no. Some, yes because they were people I knew offsite
Others that were random sign ups, nope, no way to contact them.
this is a silly question. Im not a stalker...

My question D: "Might what you heard from some players be a poor reflection of why all players stop playing?"

No, it's the reason why they stopped playing. I dont group a certain group of players together like you seem to be doing through this entire debate. Ive never said the reason for all lowbies leaving was because of this, I have said the ones I have spoken to.


My question E: "Yes or No? Might more players stick around, if doing things they want to do in-game was easier?"

nope, if it was too easy they would get bored and leave... oh wait.. some already have



Most important question: "if you realized you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions, would you admit you made a mistake? Would it contribute to you forming a new opinion?"

If i realized I was incorrect I would admit it, But I stand by my opinion I have more cons in regards to this rogues viability, then mistakes ive made.



 
 



#47 Nastasha

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 06:45

@ Kizaaz

 

First of all, thank you very much. I know you invested a lot of time into this, and I appreciate it deeply. It means a lot to me, and I imagine you were frustrated a lot as you read these questions and felt you had to answer them in an uncomfortable way.

 

I will admit, I did structure them in that way for a very specific reason, to help you try and step outside of your view. You and I want the same thing. A game that is enjoyable for all players, current as well as future/new players. I just feel there is a major breakdown in communication somewhere and we have having a hard time realizing we both want the same thing. I am trying to find how we might meet in the middle, and I sincerely feel this dialog took us a huge step towards that. Civil discourse is not an easy thing to do, and most people do not have the time, energy, and patience to do it. So thank you.

 

I want to say that I was a Slaver (rank 11) in DF, and I know the role very well. I went Rogue in part for purpose of walking my talk and humbling myself, and I am fairly sure that once I return to DF I will have a rank 11 (or more) waiting for me as I left on very good terms and that was the plan before I left. I know the role very well, and I am sure my leading questions were frustrating and confusing. I know the role, and I asked those questions in the way I did to help prove a point you may not have considered. That is all. I sincerely believe many current players are missing crucial points, and I thank you for humoring me.

 

(cont.)


Less esthetics, more fixes!

#WeThePeople!

 

www.bit.ly/WTP-Roadmap

 


#48 Nastasha

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 09:14

@ Kizaaz

 

Sorry again about my leading questions. I will try not to do that again.

 

Re: "Why did you have fun as Rogue compared to being in a gang?"

"Not answering because you didnt read my answer correctly so it is pointless"

 

Yes, which further cements the point that clearly I was making. Sorry for misunderstanding you, but I do think your response to this is clear enough. Being Rogue sucks. I am not saying it should be nearly as fun as being in a gang (Rogue should be a transition point), but it doesn't have to be that sucky... Let's be honest about this, it is like a feature/aspect of the game that is only half built. Roguatory is a trap instead of a transition point. Zorg's proposal would not break anything, it would just add a believable layer and dimension to the game and make transitions less burdensome.

 

(It isn't Legacy Lite, it is Legacy Incarceration)

 

"Should being rogue be a lil ore enjoyable sure why not.. but wasteland.. NO"

 

I am not sure why not, but I do want to point out a few things. This is a list of things that off the top of my head, those that are rogue miss out on:

 

Myth: There are two things Rogues miss out on, and the only reason they go rogue:

 

> Gang Politics

> Wasteland

 

Reality: Being Rogue means you miss out on many aspects of the game, most of which are what make Legacy an enjoyable game.

 

Things actually missed out on:

> Wasteland

> Claiming territory

> Extra exposure to battle thus more weapon XP

> Gang programs/contests

> Gang politics (intrigue)

> Gang Lore (purpose)

> Gang weapons (loyalty award)

> Gang hierarchy (function/task)

> Huge population of other players to converse with (sense of community)

> Dignity and respect (as often they are treated as a lowly minority class)

> Use and need for a host of abilities, including:

- 8 Combat abilities

- 4 Learning abilities

- 6 Stealth Abilities

- 5 Tracking Abilities

- 6 Warfare Abilities

 

I know the wall of sound is about to scream "then move to a gang!" and I get that. I understand that, and I agree. However I ask that you be humble for just a moment and step back and admit/acknowledge that when a person "goes rogue" they are missing out on a whole host of things, not just gang politics and WL.To think so is not a reflection of the reality of what they are missing out on.

 

Once again I am not saying that they should have the same things gangs have (that would be silly), but creative solutions should be considered. If not letting them into the WL (making their abilities a worthwhile time-investment), then at least give them a "non-gang weapon", or perhaps a group of abilities of their own!

 

Perhaps a "pickpocket" ability where they can snatch like 10cs from a player of their choosing 1x a day? There was talk on one of the discussion threads about some sort of "Collateral Damage" ability where if they were in the WL (or hive?) and an AV took them out, it causes say 10-50 damage to said AV. Which would also make AVs think twice about troll-killing Rogue/newbies/lowbies in the WL. Perhaps a "Graffiti" ability that lets a Rogue spend a very short time in another gang's forums to post or comment or gather intel etc. What about a "Landmine" ability that lets them put booby-traps on specific squares within WL? Of course I don't feel we should make Rogues more enjoyable then gangs, but the contrast between Rogue vs. Gang is massive for no known reason.

 

The bottom line here is the Rogues aspect/feature is so boring and ineffective it is nearly pointless. Just barely serves a function, and that is being generous. Arguing otherwise is a little silly in my mind.

 

Follow-up questions: "Why can't we be creative with Rogues?"

 

 

"No obviously I am not going to have the same views as every single new player..."

 

That question was just there to make a point. Everyone is different. Your impression of why players went inactive sounded very short-sighted and sounded like you were stating a "fact" that no players left because they were overwhelmed at the start.

 

Everyone has different motivations, desires, views, intentions etc. Some people are introverts, some are extroverts. Those that are extroverts think more like extroverts and ask more questions then introverts, whom don't want to be embarrassed to ask questions that others may feel are simple common knowledge, even though they should know it they don't. They are embarrassed to speak, afraid they will be the center, of attention or seem dumb. Thus they may never ask key questions. As in never ask R11s, or Side chat, as walking away from confusion and/or embarrassment is what we tend to do in human nature (generally speaking of course).

 

To make something perfectly clear, I never once said that every person that goes inactive early in does so because they are confused about gang politics. That is silly. I have been however saying that you all think that "no one" leaves for that reason and I think the odds of that being a reflection of reality is slim to none. This could never be a "fix-all" for retaining all new players. I do however feel there is a noteworthy amount of (shy, overwhelmed, only mildly interested) players that barely make it through the tutorial and realize they are in a gang and expected to act a certain way and back out.

 

Such players have to weight if it is worth it to them to take the energy it takes (respond to the R11 that wrote to them, thumb around to the Library, forums, wiki etc.) to find out what is expected of them, and that level of curiosity/desire/motivation does have to outweigh the amount of effort it takes to complete said task.

 

I do believe there is a significant percentage of players that do go "wait, I am in what gang? Why? .... Hmmmm I don't think I like this game very much" and X out of the tab.

 

Follow-up question A: "Do you still feel Nastasha is being completely unrealistic?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Can you see how Nastasha wants the same thing as you?"

 

 

"I dont like to choose my own gang. I would rather be put somewhere, i honestly would. Ive imagined it and i dont like choosing."

 

I do just want to say I find this answer ironic, and may even lack complete honesty. If this is the case why did you choose to try out all 4 gangs before you settled on your "home" gang? Sounds to me like you are like a lot of people and want to make an informed choice on a gang that fits your player-style? Doesn't sound to me like you like algorithms making choices for you... You are sounding a little unmovable on this point. I am not the enemy, I am just making a point. People like choosing and feeling they can do what they hope to do. Even when playing games. Heck especially when playing games. Not everyone of course, suppose there is an extreme minority of people that like computers making important choices for them... Maybe... If I must I suppose I will agree to disagree on this point... Perhaps you truly don't want to make informed choices...

 

 

"It has nothing to do with control. Its the people that make the experience"

 

It seems like you keep going to the "experience" point a lot, as if starting as Rogue would somehow make you loose out on "experience" of being in a gang. It wouldn't. Heck what says we can't make being rogue an experience? Yes I know right now that isn't possible as Roguatory sucks. But that is not how it has to be. Nor would being able to WL as Rogue mean there wouldn't be an "experience" playing this game. Rogues (just like players in any gang) would still be able to "experience" either fighting in the WL or not. Partaking in the forums or not, taking on leadership roles or not. These are all player-drive choices, and this would just be adding, not taking away from that player experience.

 

Follow-up question: "Why do you feel having first gang be a choice takes away from player experience?"

 

 

"Your questions asked SPECIFICALLY about MY experience."

 

Kinda, but not really. I keep asking about a hypothetical experience. At least trying to encourage others to separate what they did/know from what it could be if they had never been to Legacy and might look like after we make changes I feel should be made. You seem to be defending your choices and experience, and I get that. However I am trying to show you I am not attacking you, or your choices. I am not the enemy you must "prove wrong" or defend yourself from. I am just asking for you to step outside of your experience and imagine a different possibility. That is all.

 

 

"You can read all you want in a damn library book about a gang"

 

- if a player has the patience/motivation/attention to do so.

Attention Span Statistics

 

I feel pretty confident that a notable group of our new players (whom would likely be a pre-teen or teenage male as that is this games demographic) would take longer to figure out what gang they are in, what that means for them, what the other gang choices are, and how to make their choices etc. would take longer then 8 seconds... Heck I personally doubt that figure of 8 seconds personally. Teens hyped up on Monster are not likely to thumb around confused for 8 seconds in my mind. Unless they had a rank 11 over their shoulders, which clearly they do not, they are likely to get confused with how the game is set up now and take longer then 8 seconds. It probably takes more then 8 seconds for most of us to make that switch, and I feel this is ridiculous and unnecessary and not doing anything about this is more detrimental to new player retention then beneficial.

 

Novel idea- Put a simple selection screen in the new player tutorial! No fumbling around required! Or heck give Rogues their own library, where there are 5 books in it one written by each gang, then one for rogues.) The gang books could have a direct link to joining that gang. Or simply have the tutorial lead to the "leave gang" button. Solving this 8 second attention span issue could be very simple I would imagine.

 

Bottom line- It could only help, not hurt.

 

 

Re: "Do you still answer or have you answered on side-chat or in messages questions of how to switch gangs?"

"Actually if asked I will answer, but majority dont ask actually because I have a feeling its pretty easy to find ;)"

 

You didn't really answer the question. I will try and simplify it. There is nothing indicated by your current statements or prior statements that say new players don't get confused by it and simply close out the game.

 

Follow-up question: "Do some new players ask in side-chat how to switch gangs?"

 

 

"Yes, I can as I have explained before. When Rep is not taken into account... I am not leaving y gang to take screenshots for this.. sorry cant do that"

 

That is my point. Being in a gang is in fact a commitment. It is a big deal. It means something. It is not arbitrary. It is not just a different color banner, it means reputation (which new players don't take into account how that system works), and it is Rank, and it is a living breathing community separate from the others. If it was "no big deal" to be in a gang, then you would have no issues leaving your gang and coming back, am I right? To do so would be silly, and yes that was a challenge and loaded question to prove a point.

 

Forcing something, than giving a confusing choice to change it, is not giving free will. That is hinting that someone can un-f*ck themselves. Completely different.

 

If it is a commitment for you, why is it not a commitment for other players? Not only does the auto-assignment algorithm decide what gang a new player will be in, it also decides which gang they are "at war with". It is more then an idol arbitrary thing.

 

So new players spend time in a gang they never choose in the first place, and just keep playing as would be expected of them (fighting with those they are at war with for the XP boost), they are damning themselves to spend extra time in a place they will not like. This non-choice dictates how long that player will be in Roguatory if they try to move to a gang they are "at war with" (why am I at war with who again!??!?!? because the computer told me so!), and bars them access to yet another choice unless they grind (which sucks as is...).

 

With that said, I am very glad that I did what I feel few players do when they join the game. I was only about level 2 when I stopped using the tutorial, and sought out the wiki and researched my choices. I explored the gang forums, and didn't like what I saw (which was really the main thing that prompted me to research further. That and their ugly logo), so I thumbed around for quite a while before even reaching lvl 10.

 

Were I to have remained in The Chapter for longer, I would have damned myself to Roguatory for longer to make the choice I wanted in the first place. Dark Flame. Luckily I did in fact ask in Side Chat, and after having to endure some trolling, sexism, and much randomness eventually someone was kind enough to ASK which gang I wanted to be in. I had my answer and told them, and Viper was kind enough to send me the 500c. Were I not to have taken all that extra energy (as I feel most new players don't do, they simply quite or screw themselves via rep), I most certainly would have been bored and overwhelmed and turned off big-time by SC and the forums and just walked away from the game. I knew exactly where the X button to my browser tab is, but not how to switch gangs.

 

I don't believe I am the "norm". I do believe I am more-so the norm for those that stick around, vs. those that do go inactive between 1-5.

 

Follow-up question A: "Can you see how the auto-assign system can bar simple access to other choices as well when considering reputation?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Do you feel there may have been players that ended up in Roguatory, and due to reputation just lost interest in the game all together?"

 

 

"I said I had low, very low patience... if I can get through it many people can.."

 

I strongly disagree. From what I have seen from your actions, you seem extremely patient. You were a player guide, Rank 11, as well as entertaining my questions. I don't think you give yourself enough credit. ;)

 

The point is perhaps those that have played either RPGs or Text-based games may have the patience to figure things out on their own or the humility to ask, but generally speaking most pre-teen and teenage boys I have ever known tend to lack something- patience. Perhaps this is another point we will have to agree to disagree?

 

 

"BOTH, it has gotten a lot better since I was a newbie. They actually help now, so no.. presently... its not unreliable source of information."

 

This answer of yours is confusing to me because earlier you said;

 

Re: is Side Chat an inviting and helpful place for all players including rogues, newbies, and lowbies?

 

"Depending on the time of day, or who was online at the time"

 

You seem inconsistent on the topic of consistency. Once again, I am not your enemy. It seems like you are trying to defend a stance that I personally feel is not debatable.

 

My view is Side Chat is not a reliable resource for new players, but unfortunately it is the first place most players will go to ask questions (if they had not received their R11 message or staff message yet which I am sure happens often). I think the state of Side Chat presently (not when you are speaking of) is so bad it is a turn-off to new players and possibly the nail in the coffin for reasons to close out of the game completely.

 

Recipe for disaster: Fringe/niche game + Forced important decisions + confusing mechanics + unhelpful real-time community = "Peace out!" (Clicks X)

 

Clearly not every player does this, but I am guessing a majority of the people that start playing this game actually left, and I think it is silly to assume my view on this never happens. I feel your statements are misleading, as I don't know how it is possible that not a single player left in the way I am describing.

 

Follow-up question: "Is it possible some new players get overwhelmed and leave?"

 

 

Re: Might a secondary use of wasteland be possible, such as to show new players a glimpse at what gang territory and the wasteland is in the first place?

 

"Anything is possible really... so yes it would be possible, but it is not something that would better enhance the game.. sorry it just wouldnt be"

 

Yes, anything is possible. I agree. I might not be understanding your view very well, so I will try and take a step further.

 

Follow-up question: "Why would letting new players into the WL as Rogues poorly enhance or harm the game?"

 

 

Re: "Might a hypothetical Rogue Wastelander realize his Rogue option is not as cool as moving to a gang of their choosing, and interacting on the Wasteland help in their decision?"

"If there was no rogue wastelander.. then this question wouldn't even need to be asked. |
Already there is no rogues allowed in wastelands, so they would join a gang to join wastelands...what your suggesting is adding an unnecessary step to the equation.
Wasteland is for gangs..Not rogues"

 

My apologies if I am wrong, but you seem to be dodging the point. First, please consider what hypothetical means. I am not talking about how things are, I know how they are. We both do. I am talking about how they could be with a tad bit of creativity. It is easiest to think about a hypothetical without latching onto the present.

 

I will try and re-frame the question:

 

Follow-up question: "If Rogue Viability happened and new players started as Rogues, do you think they would be more likely stay Rogue, or more likely to switch to a Gang?"

 

Re: "Yes or no? Is it common practice for gang welcome messages to make switching gangs simple for every new player?"

"No, why would a gang advertise how to leave their gang. IF asked they will answer but its not in their welcome message that's just idiotic to be honest"

 

It sounds to me like you are saying it is not easy for R11s to hear from a new players that might want to switch gangs?

 

Follow-up question: "Might shy and/or overwhelmed players not ask their gang trainers how to leave the gang?"

 

 

Re: "Yes or no. Doesn't communicating with a rank 11 take additional perfect clicks for a player to perform their desired goal, rather then if they knew how to do it on their own?"

"I dont understand how being rogue is going to teach you all these new things, and in a quick time, faster and more efficiently then another player.."

 

I will admit, my thinking may be more complex then Zorg would do it. But in my mind making new player Rogues is a logical way to revive the Rogues if being Rogues is no longer an odd sort of punishment. Furthermore it would be obvious for Zorg to write something to show players the difference between Rogues and Gangs. The simplest way is through the player tutorial, and seeing what the WL is (and territory and warfare). In my mind doing it in this way would greatly reduce the learning curve load, and be pretty easy to do (scrap the counter-productive auto-assign algorithm, add a couple pages to the player tutorial, maybe a Rogue abilities category and call it done.) I may be reaching here, but the way I see it there is little reason why this couldn't be a nice fit.

 

This does not remove the need for R11s or player guides, just means the R11s and player guides might have less questions about game mechanics and more questions about strategy and character build. Little would change there in my mind. We would just have more combatant and capable newbies to recruit to our gang. Maybe one of the R11s could be a recruiter instead, or the R16 could actual focus on recruitment instead of the occasional message to other gangs Council members?

 

These subtle changes alone would breath life into the game, again in my view.

 

"Unless I'm missing this thing about clicking ( because honestly the clicking point is about as moot and pointless as they come)"

 

First, thank you for your humility. You are missing something crucial. I fear Zorg is missing something crucial as well.

 

Zorg I hope you are reading this!

 

Let it be known that IA (Information Architecture) is a bit of an advanced subject relevant to Web Design Theory & PC Game Design Theory. What I mean by this is there are collage courses on the topic of IA, so it isn't really a commonly known thing. In short IA is what keep the common average website user staying on a website. The key in this is to keep all vital information or functions of the website 3 or less clicks away. Yes, 3 clicks. This will make the game or website user-friendly, otherwise they may get confused and simply walk away from the site because they were unable to find what they were looking for. It is easier to walk away then keep hunting for something that at present they assume doesn't exist... Anytime I (as a web designer) create a website, I focus on making it user-friendly as well as visually pleasing.

 

If gangs are central to this game, why is making a gang selection difficult? Sure, some of you may disagree with me at present on this point, but I ask that if you do disagree, try and learn a little more about IA before drawing a conclusion.

 

"Click Count" or "Perfect Click Count" is sort of a slang term in web/game design community for "how simple is my site?" The higher the click count, the less likely any random visitor to the site will stay on the site. In the above links, you will notice click count is mentioned a few times. That's because it is an important consideration.

 

Look at it this way, if everyone has to go up a bunch of stairs and around a building then climb down a latter, to go into a shop, how likely is the general population going to visit that shop?

 

Not as often as if the entrance as near the parking-lot, had a handicap ramp and automatic doors.

 

Follow-up question: "Might it be smart to think about click-count and how it may effect new player retention?"

 

"I found it easier to have a fellow gang member tell me where to find things, ( or guides) then it did for tutorials."

 

As I mentioned before, gang trainers are not likely to tell their members how to switch gangs, nor are new gang members likely to ask their trainers... That is an awkward question don't you think?!

 

Follow-up question A: "Do you enjoy awkward situations/circumstances?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Do you enjoy feeling confused?"

 

Follow-up question C: "Is walking away from confusion or embarrassment easier then fighting through it for most people?"

 

 

Re: "Yes or no. Would it be a bad thing if rank 11's were able to focus more on polishing player's advanced learning/playing, instead of basic game mechanic teaching?"

 

"Rank 11s job are to introduce the newbies to the gang, its politics, and basic game mechanics. I dont quite know what you mean about this first part though.. But from what i understand. I think it would be more detrimental then helpful."

 

 

Something important was lost in translation here. I know how things are now. That was not the question. I was talking about a hypothetical. Once again I am sorry for making my questions confusing. I will try to re-phrase it.

 

Follow-up question A: "Is it easier to work with experienced players, or confused players?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Might experienced players with training make more advanced warriors?"

 

Follow-up question C: "If Rogue Viability went through, might it be helpful to let new players "test" the WL on their own by doing so as Rogue instead of while they are in a gang?"

 

(Mind you, presently new players eventually stumble into the WL and are expected to claim territory for the gang they are in. Or simply die of course... Or get "troll-killed" by AV bullies. Not a very friendly place... Nothing we can do about that at all?)

 

 

Re: My question A: "Yes or No? Do you mean to say that you believe Rogue Viability would mean no new players are ever able to leave Rogues?"

"Ok for one this cannot be a yes or no question because You word it so that if i said one thing, it proves your point, and if i say another thing it makes me look like an ignorant idiot."

 

Yes it was a bit of a rhetorical question, and I wish I didn't need to ask it in the first place. It is something I figure we can agree on but your prior statements seem to contradict this simple point. It feels like those arguing against Rogue Viability have a hard time believing I am saying everyone should be Rogue, or no one new will be Rogue, or anyone is being forced to be Rogue, or they wouldn't/couldn't still choose a gang...

 

"Ive said this from the start, my experience was best learned by interactions not stupid library books."

 

I get that, and I agree. I never said library books were a replacement for a sense of community.

 

Follow-up question A: "If Rogue Viability was a reality, do you feel it would be likely that there would be more Rogues in the Rogues then there are presently?"

 

Follow-up question B: "If there were more Rogues in Rogues, wouldn't there be more interactions?"

 

 

"I AM NOT LIKE EVERYONE, I dont know how you can just lump all the newbies together in
these questions.. I really dont."

 

Which further cements a point I have tried to make here and other places related to this. Everyone keeps saying every player would pick the most powerful gang "without a doubt". My response is "I doubt that". Ironically enough those saying this are often in gangs other then BoD... Sounds like misplaced fear. In truth it is a logical fallacy called a slippery slope. Sure some newbies may join BoD, perhaps even a majority will. But "worse" case scenario is that gang will get stagnant, boring, and top-heavy and fall or players will move... Which is already what happens presently. Rogue Viability wouldn't create this "new" problem, if anything it would make it less stagnant in gangs, not moreso as the Rogue option becomes slightly less nauseating.

 

"I dont understand where you go the " No new players are ever able to leave rogues" idea came from.. I never said it, nor did i Insinuate it..."

 

I could have heard you and others debating R.V. wrong, but it did and does sound like you all are trying to say R.V. would somehow "force" or "stick" players into Rogues... Rogues is and should remain a transition point, no matter if they can go into WL, or if new players start as Rogue. It shouldn't be a gang, nor should it's function be more appealing then being in a Gang. Just perhaps feel less like a punishment.

 

It could be (and I feel should be) a bit of a training grounds for new players, and a more efficient one at that. It can be like a Legacy Lite instead of Roguatory.

 

Picture this:

 

With Rogue Viability and lowbies set to Rogue:

1 new player pipeline

3 Rogue Trainers (staff? "leaders"? either would work)

8 Gang Trainers

 

VS.

 

Business as usual:

4 new player pipelines

5+ Player Guides

15 Gang Trainers

 

In theory, this could make the flow of new players a single entry point, thus a little easier to disseminate information to all of them as they enter one place and less probability of ending up in a gang that doesn't have their R11 ranks full. New players right now may fall through the cracks (I have seen it happen), and this might cut down on staff man-hours and reduce the need for so many R11s in each gang. Again those R11s could probably focus on recruitment and/or polishing of skills, and I feel those recruits will be better prepared as if you set a level cap for gang membership at say level 15 (they can before of course, but that may be when the tutorial brings up gangs),

 

Added bonus side effects:

  • Less inactives in gangs!
  • Less trainers needed!
  • More competent/experienced players!
  • More patriotic gang members at start!
  • More complexity in gang politics!
  • More logical gang/new player lore!
  • Less fragmentation of new players!
  • Higher sense of community between new players at similar levels!
  • Smoother gang transitions
  • Less boredom for "gang hoppers"
  • (and likely much more)

 

Re: "Yes or No? Do you believe a majority of players of any given game would prefer to be confused, over having a seamless experience?"

 

"This is the worst leading question I have ever seen."

 

Sorry about that. It was written because I keep slipping on the slippery slope argument I keep reading from others. This would not "break" the game in my view at all. Just add choices and complexity and be less confusing for new players.

"OF COURSE people don't want to be flippin confused.. doesn't mean that this game is  as confusing as you keep saying it is."

 

You are right, it doesn't. However it doesn't seem like any of you have considered the possibility. And as a player that was confused (other newbies recently have also said this point is valid), I personally think we should consider it a definite possibility. Having the gang join/leave/join system smoother and more player directed could simplify the game for new players. That is all. Simple is better no matter what way you look at it in my view.

 

"the only plausible answer is no.. and therefore you think it proves your point.."

 

I did not mean to upset you. This was never about me vs. you. I know it may have felt that way. I am sorry for that. This was about how it is now, vs. how it could be. I have a vision in my mind that obviously you all can't see. I am hoping Zorg comes to these forums and at least entertains these ideas. That is all. It is about increasing player retention, which I sincerely believe you want as well. That question was to try and find where we have common not conflicting views.

 

I am not keeping score, and I hope you are not. I have been wrong a few times during this discussion. I have tried to be humble about it. It is not a contest, we are not enemies.

 

Follow-up question A: "Can we agree we both want higher player retention?

 

Follow-up question B: "Might making things simpler help with player retention?"

 

 

Re: "Yes or No? Did every player you speak to stay playing the game?"

"No, obviously not. Since i said some of the players have told me why they LEFT...so if they left.. they didnt stay playing the game did they.."

 

Yes, this was a rhetorical/leading question to prove a point. The point being you did not get question or insight on feelings about the game from everyone that went inactive. Earlier your statements sounded like a fact that no player leaves because they are confused about the gangs system. These questions are to help you ask yourself "am I positive about that?"

 

Re: "Yes or No? Might the players that did leave not have told you exactly why they left?"

"Leading question. Well considering majority of the players who have told me why they left were people were people i have continuous contact with through the guide job (answer questions sending revives, etc etc) I would have to say they have no reason to not tell me"

 

In my mind, a person is only confused about how to do something when the need presents it's self to do it. In my mind it is also a little awkward to ask a trainer in their current gang, side-chat, and possibly even a guide how to change gangs... Changing gangs is a bit of a commitment after all (as strongly insinuated by you above). Some brave souls do ask, and those players for a fact exist (people that are confused about how to switch gangs) because we see them asking on side-chat. Claiming no one is confused by this is not true, I have seen it and I experienced it. Most all of us did.

 

However not everyone is brave enough to ask questions in side-chat for a multitude of reasons. Mainly because it is often a hostile environment (perhaps only in my view to be fair, but I think most of us agree).

 

 

Re: "Assuming players left, did you remain in contact with those that did and have them answer why exactly they left in detail?"

"Uh no. Some, yes because they were people I knew offsite
Others that were random sign ups, nope, no way to contact them.
this is a silly question. Im not a stalker..."

 

I can understand how you would find my leading question silly, and I did not mean to imply you are a stalker. I am sorry if that sounded like an insinuation.

 

Please understand; I have a huge amount of respect for you and anyone as a Guide. Heck I would like to be a Guide some day! Clearly I have more to learn about the game, and I am not rushing it.

 

What I am showing is that your statements of {paraphrasing} "no one ever said they left because they didn't like being in a gang from the start" or "no one left because changing gangs was confusing" isn't really a rock-solid representation of fact.

 

New players don't simply know who guides are unless they hunt for them, not all new players get guide or trainer messages instantly, not all players have the motivation or guts to write back to the guides or trainers that write to them, nor the guts to ask questions in hostile environments like sidechat. Not everyone has the patience to thumb around the site, and not everyone likes being aligned to something they don't understand or have allegiance to. Not everyone likes the notion of being forced into a "gang".

 

I didn't like being forced into TC, that's why I left. Many of us left our starting gang, which should say something,.

 

However; most everyone on the internet knows how to close out a tab.

 

We keep forgetting that your view is not new player's views, and what you think you know is your own perspective, not a matter of fact. You are not every new player, and you do not see in new players heads.

 

If we were somehow able to ask new players if they want to choose their gang (game start page?) or randomize their selection, then perhaps we can see if players want to direct their own game-play and gang selection. Saying you don't hear complaints about a feature that doesn't exist is kind of silly in my mind.

 

 

Re: "Yes or No? Might more players stick around, if doing things they want to do in-game was easier?"

"nope, if it was too easy they would get bored and leave... oh wait.. some already have"

 

That's not really what I asked. I said easier not boringly simple. It takes more then 3 clicks to find out what gang a player is, thus it is a little hard/confusing to do. According to IA Theory this is pretty much a case of fact.

 

I know lot's have, and I am theorizing that why a notable amount (not all, but a big enough number) is because they were experiencing one or more of the below reasons;

 

Had a hard time understanding:

  • Why they were forced into a gang
  • How they can choose a gang
  • If this confusing game was worth playing
  • Who could help them with their questions
  • If they might get mocked in live real-time chat
  • If the game would get more interesting
  • If their presence in WL made any difference
  • If choosing a gang would effect their game-play
  • If they could even choose a new gang
  • If the sexism and vulgarity in forums was normalized or expected

And realized leaving would be easier then finding the answer.

 

Mind you, if they had these going through their mind at the time, the probability is low you would have heard from them.

 

Follow-up question A: "Can you see how some people may not want to ask some tough questions when playing Legacy?"

 

Follow-up question B: "Can you see how Xing out of the game is easier then finding straight answers to tough questions?"

 

 

Re: "if you realized you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions, would you admit you made a mistake? Would it contribute to you forming a new opinion?"

"If i realized I was incorrect I would admit it"

 

Thank you. Me too. I like seeing things from different views.

 

"But I stand by my opinion I have more cons in regards to this rogues viability, then mistakes ive made."

 

I don't see being wrong as a mistake. I see it as a chance for learning and growth. I hope you do to. It seems like it, and for that I thank you. It's no contest.

 

Follow-up question: "Can we seek to find what we agree on, instead of what we disagree on?"


Edited by Nastasha, 13 December 2014 - 15:30.

Less esthetics, more fixes!

#WeThePeople!

 

www.bit.ly/WTP-Roadmap

 


#49 MVP

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 16:35

Any news on roadmap updates??

 

 

#WeThePeople!


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#50 HappyDays

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 19:37

We have been abandoned for christmas :blink: . The wasteland shop might not even make it in time for christmas. The calender seems to have undergone no overhaul. The plat sale is worse than halloween which is a lesser holiday and that got a bonus item. Shrugs.
 



#51 HappyDays

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 22:51

Maybe after the wl shop, we can have an app like fallen sword and scrap the rest ?



#52 BigDeek

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 04:18

I don't care what we get, I just want an update to make the game more interesting. 


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I play Legacy and Eldevin.  

My name on Eldevin is Decowski and my Legacy name is Decowski. :D


#53 Filletminion

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 04:34

Having just skimmed over this thread I was considering playing this game until then ..sadly what I have read fills me with no desire to continue.


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#54 Scott

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 11:24

Having just skimmed over this thread I was considering playing this game until then ..sadly what I have read fills me with no desire to continue.

 

 

 

Should at least try it before commenting? :P 




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