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Epics: Not Looking so Epic


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#1 Toreth

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Posted 21 December 2021 - 23:51

I started taking a look at the breakdown of stats that epics have and their viability here in the last few months and had to ask, "why are the epics used in multiple aspects at lower levels, but neglected for anything aside from stamina gain past a certain threshold?" That caused me to investigate into what the reason behind that might be, and the results? Fairly shocking.

 

Stat Points Per Level of Epic Item.png

As seen by the above, the stat point allocation per level exponentially decreases until it eventually levels off to roughly 2 stat points per level of the epic item. But what if it's just the old epics bringing the average down?

 

Recent Epics.png

Given this graph, we see the same general shape, and these are only epics with item numbers of 14000 or greater; that means items added to the game within the last four years or so.

 

Both of these show the decrease in stat point value for epic items, but that still doesn't show why they aren't necessarily used - let's take a deeper look into this as well.

 

Below are a series of graphs that show stat point allocation per level based on rarity of items across a select few levels. These levels were selected to show the variation in stat point allocation for the rarities, however, all levels where an epic is located were conducted.

 

Disclaimer: For items that belong to a set, the set bonus to the item was applied by taking the total number of stat points in the set bonus and distributing them equally across the number of items in the set. Why was this done? The use of Coordinated Buffs is too much for epics to make up for losing.

 

Stat Point Distribution - Level 100.png

Stat Points Distribution - Level 300.png

Stat Point Distribution - Level 1000.png

Stat Point Distribution - Level 3900.png

Stat Point Distribution - Level 4500.png

 

As seen by the graphs, at level 100, the epics are valued higher than even items with set bonuses, which greatly increases their viability in those other aspects outside of "stam gain use," however, at level 300, only 200 levels higher, that gap shrinks considerably. And at 1000? Epics have the same value as a Unique Set Item.

 

The later two levels provided then show just how skewed the stat points are away from epic items as Legendary set items have a full stat point extra per level at 3900 than an epic, and at 4500, our highest epic before the recent release of the Snorra Amulet is even slightly less than Unique Set Items.

 

What's the fix? Well, I would suggest making a flat Stat Point Allocation per Level to Epics at 4x the level and distributing them that way. This would immediately increase epic viability in arena, offline use (aside from stam gain), and add another variable to work around even in regular PvP or 1-Hit usage. Multiple +7 items in the same slot where players "don't necessarily care" about the upgrade because of the stam gain being the same now becomes a nearly "must-have" for other uses as well.

 

A simple fix in making them 4x would drastically improve the market demand for the items immediately, and circulation would be at an all time high; increased activity for these items is only good for the game.



#2 Emperor Sidd

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 00:07

I think many people have thought about fixing issues caused by epics to PvP with solutions such as dedicated epic slots or gemstone system or something else where your stats aren't tied to stam gain items but all of them were major projects.
 
 
Updating the formula for allocating stats on Epics to be similar to the lower levels such as 5 stats per level of the item would bring positive effect for everyone in the game in my opinion


#3 EpicPiety

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 00:18

100% agree, this will give you a reason to update epics outside of stamina gain. However i was thinking more along the lines of 5 points per level.


Edited by EpicPiety, 22 December 2021 - 00:19.


#4 iceman66

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Posted 22 December 2021 - 03:44

Great work Toreth, you put a lot of thought into this and it shows. I feel like this is a great idea to help encourage activity which is always a plus. It would make all epics relatively useful in other ways besides stam gain. I can think of applications to Arena, GvG, Relics battles, PvP and basically all the parts of what make FS what it is.

 

It would also probably drive the price up since demand would be higher. Which in turn would make titan (or whatever else you do to get epics) hunting worth something again so hopefully the stam used would be outweighed by the FSP gained. I also think some consistency in a stat formula would be amazing. That way you could kind of predict what pieces of gear you'd need to make stronger sets.

 

Usually it's hard to affect positive change for all players, but something like this could only help FS. In order for this to work though I imagine that all the formulas for existing gear would need to be changed to the updated version. I don't think it would be as effective if it was just everything moving forward.

 

I fully support this and look forward to a positive response from the devs. Thanks for listening. 



#5 shindrak

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Posted 24 December 2021 - 15:05

Nice Work Toreth ,

I have always thought why epics are just tied to stamina gain , I'm interested to see increase in other stats like xp gain , max stamina by 4x of current stats  along with rare enhancements.


Edited by shindrak, 24 December 2021 - 15:08.


#6 Undjuvion

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 09:59

Nice Work Toreth ,

I have always thought why epics are just tied to stamina gain , I'm interested to see increase in other stats like xp gain , max stamina by 4x of current stats  along with rare enhancements.

 

more stats would make epic arenas actually have more epics maybe!



#7 shindrak

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 11:25

more stats would make epic arenas actually have more epics maybe!

Yup , currently Epics are only used in Arena for lvls 50-400 



#8 yghorbeviahn

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 20:29

I think the idea of attaching a Buff to Epics could be good... Something like Vision, Inventor 1/2, Perfection and things like that...You could have the buff running 24/7 while wearing the Epic.

The buffs and levels would have to be extremely well thought out.

#9 moonfrost

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Posted 25 December 2021 - 20:53

4


Edited by moonfrost, 20 January 2022 - 22:39.


#10 Emperor Sidd

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Posted 08 January 2022 - 20:02

@Hoof and Arioche
 
Making epics viable in areas such as PvP and Arenas will also increase demand for invented Epics which require Guild RP.
While it doesn't substitute reworking GvG Conflicts, it will certainly increase activity and contribute to the economy in Fallensword affording you more time to work on or postpone a GvG rework.


#11 Alisa

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 16:11

making gvg easier to defend would be nice. epic needs to stay epic


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#12 yghorbeviahn

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 18:39

Honestly it's really hard to see Epics working if we don't find a way around CoA, KE, SH, etc...I know the idea of Epics sets was neglected in the past, but without those buffs it's impossible to use them for PvP, defending or attacking.

I discussed with a friend in the past about the idea of Epics having customizable Sets, you create/craft your own Set by linking 2 Epics together, let's say Perchtas Grasp (Gloves) and Perchtas Rune, for example, once that happens they would carry that info forever, so if you decide to sell the Rune it would show "Set with Perchtas Grasp", which would increase the demand for Epics in general since it would kinda of become one of a kind.

#13 Undjuvion

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Posted 16 January 2022 - 06:05

if epics were truly epic theyd have a reserve stamina gain, perhaps every 6 hours.



#14 Davros81

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Posted 16 January 2022 - 21:46

if epics were truly epic theyd have a reserve stamina gain, perhaps every 6 hours.

Capital idea chief



#15 Gutie

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Posted 05 February 2022 - 15:24

tl;dr not a fan of a major boost to epic's stats to compete with top LE/Crystalline/SE gear. Adding combat oriented epics with less stam gain/xp gain would be preferable. Perhaps boost xp gain (NOT stam gain) of existing epics to increase the contrast. Boosting invigorate or a new buff that doesn't work below a set level. (Maybe a AH Special/Bazaar exclusive potion with a level 300/500 requirement to avoid making low level epics absurdly OP?). Overall I'm not for entirely negating the choice players must make between stam gain epics and "combat gear."
 
 ****** Long post is long... cows should add a "Spoiler" function to forum posts****
I would say significantly boost the power of Invigorate to fix the gap getting the boost that CoAtt/CoDef/KE/SH/Shield Wall/Armor Boost give, but then it totally undercuts things at lower levels. Maybe a tweak to Invigorate with a "if" clause that does a level check "cant be used at a level below x" to fix it, but it would be the easiest one then aside that small tweak/testing. A new buff boosting epics with this effect would be another alternative, again one that restricts use below certain levels. Minimal change would be required.
 
Alternatively I think an bump up of their power of those around 500 and higher by 25% is reasonable. It doesnt break the game, and gives the impact in arena in some level brackets some cite they'd like. Preference should be given to a slight boost for certain select types of epics, such as those requiring invention like the cow epics and RP epics at a slightly higher level than that 25%, maybe a bump by 1/3.
 
But a full boost to drastically devalue other gear and boost its own enables exploiting the game economy, which could make the changes very self serving for some (including my own guild) who have large quantities of epics on hand, either personally stockpiled for various reasons, tagged and for titans routinely secured.
 
"Power creep" with certain types of potions is already unintentionally undermining certain aspects of the game. I'm not for a major change to the stats of existing gear. This is an issue where if anything adding new combat focused epics as time goes on with less stam/xp gain to them for their tier than current ones have.
 
Players should have to weigh the benefits of the setups they use no less than choosing a "suicide" setup vs an armor setup reliant on various buffs. Possibly to further leave some players with a tough choice you could boost the XP gain bonus some epics have rather than stam gain. This could be something that marginally gives more value to existing epics.


Edited by Gutie, 05 February 2022 - 15:29.

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#16 EpicPiety

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Posted 06 February 2022 - 19:39

Overall I'm not for entirely negating the choice players must make between stam gain epics and "combat gear."

Then it looks like you are on the same page as the OP. This does not negate that choice.



#17 Gutie

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Posted 14 February 2022 - 20:52

Then it looks like you are on the same page as the OP. This does not negate that choice.

Then wear combat gear. Sounds like you want to double dip with epics being for both arena/offline and stam gain at the same time. I've made a few counter proposals, and no, his post is specifically that Epics have lower combat stats. Thats the entire point of the analysis.

 

Just make new epics or just understand that epics aside the first several are not for combat but more akin to "national treasures" in many RPG lore, not all being for combat but many useful utilities that enhance you in other ways. 


GutieGGtsig_zps678d4c8f.png

 

 

Are you active? Enjoy playing FS for fun and striving for lofty goals? Looking to join a guild that invests in itself and seeks to improve and grow in all aspects of the game?

 

Secret Alliance can be your home in FS! We are looking for active, motivated and driven players who have a passion and genuine enjoyment of FS to join us as we continue to rise towards the TOP! If interested feel free to send me a PM.

 

SA is also looking for one or two guild mergers INTO SA. Feel free to ask for details.


#18 EpicPiety

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Posted 14 February 2022 - 21:12

The point of the OP was to give them niche combat uses and make them more viable in "epic" arenas. Nobody, OP included is suggesting they be used as part of main Combat Sets. I think you are misunderstanding the OP. Especially with buffs and sets we now have available today moving epics to 4stat:1level will not even come CLOSE to achieving that.


Edited by EpicPiety, 14 February 2022 - 21:18.


#19 Toreth

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Posted 15 February 2022 - 13:09

Boosting invigorate or a new buff that doesn't work below a set level. (Maybe a AH Special/Bazaar exclusive potion with a level 300/500 requirement to avoid making low level epics absurdly OP?).

Well, I spy something in-game...

 

Spoiler

 

 

tl;dr not a fan of a major boost to epic's stats to compete with top LE/Crystalline/SE gear. Adding combat oriented epics with less stam gain/xp gain would be preferable. Perhaps boost xp gain (NOT stam gain) of existing epics to increase the contrast. Boosting invigorate or a new buff that doesn't work below a set level. (Maybe a AH Special/Bazaar exclusive potion with a level 300/500 requirement to avoid making low level epics absurdly OP?). Overall I'm not for entirely negating the choice players must make between stam gain epics and "combat gear."
 
 ****** Long post is long... cows should add a "Spoiler" function to forum posts****
I would say significantly boost the power of Invigorate to fix the gap getting the boost that CoAtt/CoDef/KE/SH/Shield Wall/Armor Boost give, but then it totally undercuts things at lower levels. Maybe a tweak to Invigorate with a "if" clause that does a level check "cant be used at a level below x" to fix it, but it would be the easiest one then aside that small tweak/testing. A new buff boosting epics with this effect would be another alternative, again one that restricts use below certain levels. Minimal change would be required.
 
Alternatively I think an bump up of their power of those around 500 and higher by 25% is reasonable. It doesnt break the game, and gives the impact in arena in some level brackets some cite they'd like. Preference should be given to a slight boost for certain select types of epics, such as those requiring invention like the cow epics and RP epics at a slightly higher level than that 25%, maybe a bump by 1/3.
 
But a full boost to drastically devalue other gear and boost its own enables exploiting the game economy, which could make the changes very self serving for some (including my own guild) who have large quantities of epics on hand, either personally stockpiled for various reasons, tagged and for titans routinely secured.
 
"Power creep" with certain types of potions is already unintentionally undermining certain aspects of the game. I'm not for a major change to the stats of existing gear. This is an issue where if anything adding new combat focused epics as time goes on with less stam/xp gain to them for their tier than current ones have.
 
Players should have to weigh the benefits of the setups they use no less than choosing a "suicide" setup vs an armor setup reliant on various buffs. Possibly to further leave some players with a tough choice you could boost the XP gain bonus some epics have rather than stam gain. This could be something that marginally gives more value to existing epics.

What are you saying you perceive Epics to be? Items to ONLY be worn offline with no other use? The reason for the OP was to evaluate why the demand for the recently released Boogle/Woogle and Snorra Items weren't as high as they could and likely should have been. And the reason? It's because they provide no notable increase in pertinent stats over Perchtas Grasp, Steamforged Ring, and the Cow Amulet (to a lesser extent Flayed Axe vs Antlers - only because Duelist vs Def/Dam is a debate).

 

As it stands, players can scroll through the arena page and all of those check boxes under "Epic" that are below level ~400 don't mean anything at all because all of the Epics are severely outclassed by every other rarity of item - to include instances of common items being used OVER EPICS. So what's so Epic about them? They're used for absolutely nothing other than camping offline in them until your stam is full for either a Global or a Hunt. They have no use.

 

The OP is in no way saying to buff Epics to the point that it invalidates set items - it should always be a choice to use many different setups instead of being funneled into a single "best use" or "one size fits all." That's not really gaming, is it? That kind of defeats the purpose of logging in every day for the fun aspect of FS.

 

Why can't someone also look at options in the PvP/GvG world and think, "Hey, three 2-Piece sets with three Epic items for a 3x Invigorate Boost here would be HUGE!"?

 

As I said just a few sentences ago - it's not about boosting them to invalidate anything currently available in-game; it's boosting them to be where they're supposed to be - in the EPIC class of items.



#20 EpicPiety

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Posted 15 May 2022 - 16:58

Why hasn't this thread been considered?

 

Arioche do you have any comment?


Edited by EpicPiety, 15 May 2022 - 16:58.



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