134 replies to this topic

[DragonLord]

But I definitely think if the GAME taught people how to PVP/GVG, then they wouldn't be so afraid of it. So when they login and see 20 random attacks, they won't be discouraged or angry to the point of not wanting to play...If the cap IS raised to 100 and they KNOW how to GVG/PVP but see their guild won't support the cause, then they can simply leave the guild instead of the entire game. Which works out for everyone because we have more people hunting, GVGing, PVPing, buying buffs, donating to the game, etc.

and that's the whole point of restructuring the beginning of the game. To introduce the various elements piecemeal, rather than been thrown in at at the deep end, with a lead weight around your ankles and a shiver of ravenous sharks circling around you ...

[yotwehc]

I find the argument that a level 100 player has stuck around and knows buffs and gear better rather weak. How long have they stuck around...a month? I say again GvG is a guild activity and as such a player has to be in a guild to be hit in GvG attack. With this being the case the Guild should educate them, advise them about buffs and provide them with adequate gear. If players left your Guild due to GvG attacks even though this had been done then the likelihood is they would have left FS anyway, no matter what the guild provided them.

As for providing players with gear to GvG at a higher level. Its not really a concern of mine or Korovas. I'm more concerned about the dumbing down of the game that's being suggested. And the fact that it may be considered without submitting the suggestion to a fuller audience.

Cheers.

wil72

You may find the argument weak... Maybe true for you but I won't tell you how long it took me to get to lvl 100... Yes, the guild should educate but it is crazy over whelming... my checklist of stuff to tell our new players: - don't hit super elites, don't carry a lot of gold, ask for buffs, use this gear or that, always fight mobs your level or higher, don't hit back on gvg, etc, etc... for someone playing a week (based on your leveling pace)... yeah... that's not a little overwhelming?

With regard to dumbing down... hitting new players is genius? I truly want to know why it's a MUST to hit low level players for GVG.... Aside from being easy targets, why is it a show stopper? as you said, getting to lvl 100 is a month activity, so what's wrong with lvl 100? little too challenging?

[Gutie]

wil72, You asked for example of people who leave for getting smacked around via Guild conflicts, I gave myself as an example, and you ignored that I even made note of it (which BG even quoted).

I was still inexperienced in that regard, and as of right now, having a array of low levels to farm RP is rewarded. Being out of that range for far longer than me, and not in a guild that USED to be a target for GvGers (I was sub 200 last fall) you're being oblivious to the issue and acting like our citing of examples (including my OWN experiences) isn't meeting the bar.


You're the one who got this big stink over GvG started via Belaric's post (as only one portion of a large amount of ideas mentioned GvG, which has me so taken aback about your emphatic denouncing of the entirety of changes) in the first place...

To insist to have the thread title changed when you started the outcry about GvGs (we were merely tossing around ideas, until you MADE GvG an issue back on page 1/2) when you're finding no one agreeing with you is a bit disappointing I suppose is the nicest way to put it. I doubt if you hadn't decried Belaric's post that GvG would have become as strong a focal point in this thread as it has become...


Also, what is SO terrible about leveling a bit more than we have to in order to GvG? Seriously. Especially given the concept of streamlining 1-50 (Maybe more as BG hinted would be possible) would make it FAR easier and less confusing for members to reach that threshold than as of now?

I think if we streamline that content FIRST before changing GvGing to enable people to meet that new threshold more effectively would be a nice way to lessen whatever impact it has on the rate in which you and the phantasmal fellow opponents would have in netting their RP.

I said it before and I restate what I said a few days ago...


GvGing takes a backseat to player retention/acquisition as having more people will cause growth in ALL aspects of Fallensword... including prospective donations

[DragonLord]

GvGing takes a backseat to player retention/acquisition as having more people will cause growth in ALL aspects of Fallensword... including prospective donations

Agreed, 100%

[berten]

I find this all rather sneaky.

The Subject heading to this thread has no mention of GvG in it or the suggestion that it should be capped nor is it commented on in the Original post, its all about Banner Ads. But GvG has been the main topic of conversation within this thread. Just my luck that no low level GvGer has decided to read it. But then why would they as the Subject description makes no reference to GvG. (Man, I wondered why I was the only dissident voice. I'm getting slow in my old age :shock: )

Change the heading to " Cappped GvG would be good for the Game " or create a new Topic with this title and see what type of responses the thread gets then.

I think doing this would be fair.....no?

Cheers.

wil72

I am the one who brought up gvg in this topic. Because i believe that without lvl 25 farmers we would have more starters. The topic is about raising activity and advertisements. Many ideas were brought up, and this idea falls under that imo. There is nothing sneaky about it. I am certain that HCS will not implement it right away, and when they do, they will start a new topic and let everybody say their thing again. I wont start a new topic for it now, that is pointless.

Allow me to talk about your concern:

Your main concern seems to be that the lvl25 farmers will quit when low lvl starters get protection from gvg. Well, how do you know that? it is pure assumption to say they will all quit !! Probably some of them may quit, but most of them will level to the next range to gvg at. They have the knowledge and the tools to level up. RP farming is a goldmine for them, and for the guilds, so that makes me certain that many will keep gvg'ing, and gvg will not die. Do you have any idea on the number of farmers who would quit? can you put a number on that? ... 20? ... 50? (some of them are multi's too, but that is pure assumption from me). If a certain number of players quit because they cannot farm lvl 1's anymore, then i am really sorry for them. But its for a good cause.

You can compare it to pvp protection under lvl 25. We have that, and its widely accepted without question. But in your reasoning, you could also say pvp protection for those lvls is bad, because some players may just want to pvp at those levels, and would quit if they cant.

Allow me to elaborate my concern again:

My concern is that lvl 25 farmers are a cause, for many starters to give up. They sign up to a game, not knowing yet what the game involves, and before they get to explore any aspect of the game they see that they are getting farmed like crazy. It takes a while for a starter to decide if he will be playing a game, its not like someone decides to play a game before they sign up. It takes some exploring. Those farmers dont give those starters any time to explore the game. A lvl 1 can get farmed on his first day, before he even decides he wants to play this game.

I cannot put a number on those quitters, RP has been around for a few years now, so i would guess several hundreds at least. But i am certain that there are alot more ppl quitting from being farmed than there are ppl staying specificaly because they can farm lvl 1's.

[BigGrim]

A couple suggestions,,,,,

A quest added that explains gvg mechanics and gives some reward related to gvg (a potion with deflect 180, FS, KE and LD would be a great reward and tho a bit op I support the theory of give the new guy the op stuff to get them used to the game easier) I think a quest to get through a gvg or even better that and a quest rewarding a player for participating in one (lots of suggestions for a GvG medal how about make the bronze tier participate in one gvg??) and I think you will find it attracts more players!!!! Finally make sure everyone knows what they are, how they work and what it means especially how there isn't exp, gold or any other personal loss to them.

Not a bad idea.

Another point id like to make is at least to us GvG was the first taste of pvp we got and with the system used that takes out exp and gold loss it should be something new players are encouraged to do not discouraged at!
That said I think you should set it at lvl25 and nobody can participate nor be attacked until that level and up, a message informing the player that this portion of the game is now open will go far to keep people from thinking this is a big and game breaking deal which is what I think is 100% of the problem for those who leave over GvG attacks.

PvP is something players SHOULD get used to. It has been a part of the game since the start! That said, I think perhaps moving the cap on GvG to 50 might be worth while. After all, with the Epic Quest, you are learning loads of new stuff and can get to 35 in less than a day. Then you join a Guild and suddenly find you are being pounded into the dirt in GvG for no reason. I can see how that would turn people away and any saying they can't is being deliberately obtuse.

The Guild should educate them, advise them about buffs and provide them with adequate gear. If players left your Guild due to GvG attacks even though this had been done then the likelihood is they would have left FS anyway, no matter what the guild provided them.

But do they help? And do those players leave anyway? For someone who says he hates the conjecture from other players in this thread, you use rather a lot yourself.

I'm more concerned about the dumbing down of the game that's being suggested. And the fact that it may be considered without submitting the suggestion to a fuller audience.

Dumbing down? You mean making the OPENING STAGES of the game easier to get to grips with? What a terrible thing to be attempting to do.

As for not not submitting to a wider audience, we're looking at suggestions here and taking notes. Just like we always do.

Then, we'll discuss them here at the office. Just like we always do.

THEN we'll open the idea to the forum and see what everyone thinks. Just like we always do. Your conspiracy theories throughout this thread are getting ridiculous. Stop it.

you join a guild and get this message,,,,perhaps even a way for a founder to edit it and personalise to their guild??

"welcome to ,,,,,, you will find many benefits by working with a guild including a guild chat (insert link here) group attacks where you can recruit guildmates to help with a portion of their stats in one special attack (link to groups which has more info on how they work added as well) Guilds can share equipment which has had a special tag added to it (link to a mini tutorial of recall and store including what permisisons are needed and how it works) and you can now participate in guild conflicts,,,

Guild conflicts are a special match where a guild can test its fighting strength against another guild without the exp and gold loss experianced in regular pvp (a pvp guide added here as well wouldnt hurt) to participate in gvgs you should speak to your leaders as they may have restrictions to who can join for them and other guild specific rules (add a bit about how the scoring works and help avoid the fights and kicks a noob can and does get if they jump into a gvg,,, I recall how bad I got butt chewed when I jumped in and didnt know what I was doing my first time!)
(add link to gvg page with more new player friendly info posted there)

This sounds like a rather knifty idea. I like it. Will see what Hoofmaster thinks.

the rest of this is optional but I think a great way to encourage people to try GvGs and learn about them better

Quest available! participate in one gvg and get (insert anything from extra stam to potion to another great idea I had, do one gvg and get a special one time buff pack they can activate on you when being hit,, make it a powerful anti gvg pack that hopefully will also force a miss and encourage them to help; counter buff and fight back!!!)
(also could be once again the 1 participation needed to get a bronze gvg medal, some may think only one should not qualify for a medal but I think its a great reward to get people into it as well as show that they did something just by being part of the team as well as reduce the shock of the first one for a new person)

Quest available! When your guild is attacked in GvG the next time you get (insert anything from stam to pot to cheap gear reward that encourages people to find out all about this event and how they work)

Finally a lot more info availale to a new player to get them ready and prepared for a gvg will go far to reduce the shock of them as well as get people used to the idea of playing a pvp game. This also is a GREAT idea to add to pvp!!!!!!

This isnt set in stone just a few suggestions, id like to see feedback on it and perhaps a thread just for it and poll on options added, epsecially like to see the opinion of those who are very much against ever being hit if gvg and how this may have helped them be more adaptable to them.

Again, something we can discuss. We'll see.

[Spitfire666123]

I find the argument that a level 100 player has stuck around and knows buffs and gear better rather weak. How long have they stuck around...a month? I say again GvG is a guild activity and as such a player has to be in a guild to be hit in GvG attack. With this being the case the Guild should educate them, advise them about buffs and provide them with adequate gear. If players left your Guild due to GvG attacks even though this had been done then the likelihood is they would have left FS anyway, no matter what the guild provided them.

As for providing players with gear to GvG at a higher level. Its not really a concern of mine or Korovas. I'm more concerned about the dumbing down of the game that's being suggested. And the fact that it may be considered without submitting the suggestion to a fuller audience.

Cheers.

wil72

You may find the argument weak... Maybe true for you but I won't tell you how long it took me to get to lvl 100... Yes, the guild should educate but it is crazy over whelming... my checklist of stuff to tell our new players: - don't hit super elites, don't carry a lot of gold, ask for buffs, use this gear or that, always fight mobs your level or higher, don't hit back on gvg, etc, etc... for someone playing a week (based on your leveling pace)... yeah... that's not a little overwhelming?

With regard to dumbing down... hitting new players is genius? I truly want to know why it's a MUST to hit low level players for GVG.... Aside from being easy targets, why is it a show stopper? as you said, getting to lvl 100 is a month activity, so what's wrong with lvl 100? little too challenging?

I was PvPing by level 30. Had my Bronze BH Medal by 40 (Most of the clears were 200+, and online). With some proper instruction of HOW to PvP, and the knowledge and understanding that XP isnt the most important thing in this game (BLASPHEMY!, I know), ANYBODY can become a 'PvPer'.

EDIT: This was back in 2008, before all this OP < 100 gear, and all the "PvP Heroes" at that level

[yotwehc]

I was PvPing by level 30. Had my Bronze BH Medal by 40 (Most of the clears were 200+, and online). With some proper instruction of HOW to PvP, and the knowledge and understanding that XP isnt the most important thing in this game (BLASPHEMY!, I know), ANYBODY can become a 'PvPer'.

EDIT: This was back in 2008, before all this OP < 100 gear, and all the "PvP Heroes" at that level

o_O
What exact point are you arguing? I thought we were talking about GVG and how people farm new players thus causing them to not feel welcome... So you were clearing 200+ folks... good for you... your not farming the newbies... what's the point of your post?

[Spitfire666123]

I was PvPing by level 30. Had my Bronze BH Medal by 40 (Most of the clears were 200+, and online). With some proper instruction of HOW to PvP, and the knowledge and understanding that XP isnt the most important thing in this game (BLASPHEMY!, I know), ANYBODY can become a 'PvPer'.

EDIT: This was back in 2008, before all this OP < 100 gear, and all the "PvP Heroes" at that level

o_O
What exact point are you arguing? I thought we were talking about GVG and how people farm new players thus causing them to not feel welcome... So you were clearing 200+ folks... good for you... your not farming the newbies... what's the point of your post?

Since you didnt catch it the first time, Ill say it again. With some training, anybody can become a PvPer, regardless of level.

[yotwehc]

I was PvPing by level 30. Had my Bronze BH Medal by 40 (Most of the clears were 200+, and online). With some proper instruction of HOW to PvP, and the knowledge and understanding that XP isnt the most important thing in this game (BLASPHEMY!, I know), ANYBODY can become a 'PvPer'.

EDIT: This was back in 2008, before all this OP < 100 gear, and all the "PvP Heroes" at that level

o_O
What exact point are you arguing? I thought we were talking about GVG and how people farm new players thus causing them to not feel welcome... So you were clearing 200+ folks... good for you... your not farming the newbies... what's the point of your post?

Since you didnt catch it the first time, Ill say it again. With some training, anybody can become a PvPer, regardless of level.

Another not so helpful point... yes... with training, anyone can do anything. but the forum topic is raising activity and my post specifically was about gvg farming. Are you implying that there is pvp farming and you don't want this cap to effect pvp? interesting...

Really... If you could help me understand why it is so important to beat up on new players as low as level 25? I think it's in ALL of our best interest to get players addicted first then start beating up on them. I think I've asked this question 3 times but perhaps it was one of them coded responses that I'm not smart enough to understand. help me!

[Belaric]

And a couple more.






Calm down folk. BG is listening and taking notes. This thread is successful. Yay!

[yotwehc]

And a couple more.






Calm down folk. BG is listening and taking notes. This thread is successful. Yay!

deep breaths... whhhhh...
but I am genuinely curious why it's such a burden not being able to gvg lvl 25's...

[Belaric]

Not 2 in a row again.

If I could be bothered I'd map the levels that should be excised... but doing that is not my actual job, so I'm not bothering. We all know the horrific low level dead ends we'd like to kill... Fire Chasm 2 to 3 anyone?? Jump from level 3 at FC 2 to 15 at FC 3? Seriously? And I'd like to nuke the narrow path from orbit. With prejudice.

The GvG debacle. I have said I'd like it restricted to above 50. I would like PvP restricted to above 50 for the general population also.

I would like the streamlined 1-50 content and the epic quest from 30-50 to include PvP elements as previously mentioned. I think grendeldog's admission that GvG in this game is awesome should be recognised. RECOGNISED!! I think the intro/epic quest should between 40-50 introduce BOTH the idea of PvP (as a quest requirement, and as previously described) and GvG - as an idea - people should not be forced into guilds - many prefer to play solo.

We should not/cannot blame guilds for failing to defend their own when the guilds that are attacked at low levels are often fledgling guilds themselves. wil72 agreed to a min GvG guild level of 100 if I am not mistaken. That seems fair. I also acknowledge that there is a risk of sliding that 100 to 150- 200- 300 etc. I do not think the min guild level for GvG or the min hit level for GvG should be implemented without a poll and a dedicated discussion.

It is easy to create bogeymen - we as a community should be better than pitchfork wielding villagers out for the monster. (Except we go kill monsters for a living... point taken) X is not at fault. X is not the bad guy. X is not the disease. If we talk about it and give our rationale's to BG and the team, they will have EVIDENCE to pursue and make the game better for us all. We only have anecdotal evidence, plus the awesome number crunchers out there - but if we can be reliable in our anecdotes, I believe the Cows can look back at their hard data and see patterns. Maybe I'm a dreamer, etc.

So. Where are we? We are trying to make it better. Thanks to all who have joined in this chat, and to all who will join in, in future.

[yodamus]

i dont know what the exact numbers would be, but rest assured that if the change on gvging went to level 50..the amount of newer players staying longer in the game would far,far exceed the number of players quitting due to not being able to farm newbies..that would be a great help to the game, that is why this needs to be done very soon..everyday that passes = more newbie players leaving due to farming.. if you want to keep new players and get the online numbers up..get this done as see what happens..

[Spitfire666123]

I think PvP needs to be properly represented. There are no more decent low level PvPers. The low levels have always been known as a wasp nest, and everyone has had to just level through it.

GvG at lower levels needs to be restricted. From 25-300 its +/- 25 levels. Why not make it +/- 5 levels from 25-200, or even 25-100? Even if GvG limit is raised to 50, 25 levels are still alot down there.

[wil72]

i dont know what the exact numbers would be, but rest assured that if the change on gvging went to level 50..the amount of newer players staying longer in the game would far,far exceed the number of players quitting due to not being able to farm newbies..that would be a great help to the game, that is why this needs to be done very soon..everyday that passes = more newbie players leaving due to farming.. if you want to keep new players and get the online numbers up..get this done as see what happens..

Why so hasty mate? Would it not be prudent to get, as suggested , further input from the Fallen Sword population before HCS make any definite decision? You feel one way others may feel differently.

Cheers.

wil72

[wil72]

I think PvP needs to be properly represented. There are no more decent low level PvPers. The low levels have always been known as a wasp nest, and everyone has had to just level through it.

GvG at lower levels needs to be restricted. From 25-300 its +/- 25 levels. Why not make it +/- 5 levels from 25-200, or even 25-100? Even if GvG limit is raised to 50, 25 levels are still alot down there.

I see what your getting at here mate and its good Though I think a +/-5 is too low. I would be happier with 10. But hey, its me, I'm never happy

Though I think it was suggested that if GvG was capped at level 50, you could start to GvG at level 50 but only hit player + 25 levels above you, not 25 below. I far prefer your suggestion.

Cheers.

wil72.

[DragonLord]

i dont know what the exact numbers would be, but rest assured that if the change on gvging went to level 50..the amount of newer players staying longer in the game would far,far exceed the number of players quitting due to not being able to farm newbies..that would be a great help to the game, that is why this needs to be done very soon..everyday that passes = more newbie players leaving due to farming.. if you want to keep new players and get the online numbers up..get this done as see what happens..

Why so hasty mate? Would it not be prudent to get, as suggested , further input from the Fallen Sword population before HCS make any definite decision? You feel one way others may feel differently.

Cheers.

wil72

I think that pretty much everyone else feels that GvG needs blocking at the very low levels

[wil72]

i dont know what the exact numbers would be, but rest assured that if the change on gvging went to level 50..the amount of newer players staying longer in the game would far,far exceed the number of players quitting due to not being able to farm newbies..that would be a great help to the game, that is why this needs to be done very soon..everyday that passes = more newbie players leaving due to farming.. if you want to keep new players and get the online numbers up..get this done as see what happens..

Why so hasty mate? Would it not be prudent to get, as suggested , further input from the Fallen Sword population before HCS make any definite decision? You feel one way others may feel differently.

Cheers.

wil72

I think that pretty much everyone else feels that GvG needs blocking at the very low levels

Everyone! In this thread you mean :wink:

What about the majority of players in Fallen sword that probably haven't read this?

Cheers.

wil72

[DragonLord]

Why so hasty mate? Would it not be prudent to get, as suggested , further input from the Fallen Sword population before HCS make any definite decision? You feel one way others may feel differently.

Cheers.

wil72

I think that pretty much everyone else feels that GvG needs blocking at the very low levels

Everyone! In this thread you mean :wink:

What about the majority of players in Fallen sword that probably haven't read this?

Cheers.

wil72

Bring 'em in to back your corner then - pretty much all those that currently read the forums (including the cows) think this change is a good idea so I suspect you're banging your head against a brick wall now though..