49 replies to this topic

[Kedyn]

While I know GVG (Guild vs Guild) seems to have become a forgotten piece of the game, I think there are still ways that can re-vitalize GVG with new recipes and buff packages that are being released. While I still think RP rewards (epics) hurt the idea of GVG, I will put that aside for this discussion. My end goal is to try to breathe life into GVG again - both from the attacking and defending sides. The first suggestion was one that Ryebred and I talked about a long time ago, which he posted back on one of the development maps, and got a lot of great responses (from many GVG players, top rated and not, at the time):

 

Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:15

GvG needs attention - simple moves can improve it so very much, and I see no harm in trying something that isn't a complete alteration of GvG as we know it now.

How do you start - quarterly resets.  Every 3 months reset top rated list.  Why; because the top is stagnant, and upcoming guilds so far from getting close - it's downright discouraging.  

Reward the top at each reset; nothing fancy - just a little boost of RP to the tops - further increases incentive to compete.  GvGers are very proud, and little incentive is needed imo.

                1st - 300 RP
                2nd- 200 RP
                3rd- 150 RP
                4th & 5th - 100 RP
                6th-10th- 75 RP
                11th-25th- 50 RP
 
Don't go introducing more gear to be made with RP - want to include some updated buff packs that are with the times = great (buff packs that support the fields from which the currency to buy them is spawned would be an amazing revelation - titan hunting + GvG friendly packs) - but don't overdo it on the rewards.

 New guild medals in same light of ones recently introduced to recognize outstanding achievement on guild scale would be nice perk too..they can in themseves do something small like the current "
Guild Achievements " do - can represent few different catagories - top dogs, top 5, etc.

I think this is good base idea to try.  There is no harm that can come of it in my opinion.  I believe it will create a new buzz in game; and many would be shocked at what doing a little can bring to a dying field.

Thanks for reading; feedback, suggestions, etc ~ Rye
 

 

 

[Kedyn]

Now, I'd like to post some other possible ways to help bring more activity into GVG. These ideas may bring both more wanted and unwanted type of GVG (meaning that there could be more "farming" of guilds, but that's the environment that was created with the RP epics). These ideas are separate from the one above from Ryebred about the ladder resets every 1-3 months.

 

1) Create the ability for the attacking guild to select the amount of stam they would like to use per hit in a GVG conflict. I would think 3 levels would be good, with varying rewards. The normal 10 stam hits, which keeps the same RP rewards as now. A 50 stam option (every hit by the attacking guild will be 50 stam) where RP rewards are multiplied by 4. The third option would be 100 stam hits required by the attacking guild. This would multiply rewards by 7. The reason why the reward multipliers aren't equal to the amount of stamina used (ie 100 stam is 10x the 10 stam) is because of the idea you're gaining RP faster for a lesser number of conflicts. 

 

If this is introduced, I'd like to keep defending the way it is. All defense hits are 10 stam - no matter what the attacking guild used. The defending guild will receive the multiplier based on the stamina used by the attacking guild for either draws or defense wins. This will help give some incentive for guilds to return hits, and allow players who are targeted (ie 2 players from the attacking guild targeting 1 player) to return hits without needing say 5000 stamina to return hits (if the 2 attacking players used 100 stam hits).

 

At the end of the day, I'd like to see more guilds try to return hits in GVG, as the attacking guild has the advantage by picking the time to attack the defending guild in GVG.

 

2) If quarterly resets for the GVG ladder are introduced, I'd like to suggest a few adjustments to Rye's post. First, I'd like to create a more random reset - anywhere from 1-3 months would be great. I don't think it's necessary, but I like the idea of more randomization around resets, which keeps guilds needing to attack and defend throughout the entire process.

 

Also if the ladders reset, I'd like to see more restrictions around the guilds who are able to participate. I am still okay with the idea that a minimum of 4 active players are needed in a guild to initiate. I'd like to suggest a few more ideas if the resetting ladder is introduced:

 

A) There should be at least  4 active targets in the guild being initiated against. I know there are some  guilds out there that get targeted when an attacking guild has 2 people able to hit a person in a 1 person guild.

The attacking guild should have to target at least 2 different players in the guild that was initiated against. This will help make sure all targets aren't against 1 player. There would at least need to be 2 people in the same range, or require guilds to hit multiple targets.

 

I'm okay with not seeing #2 introduced, as I know that there may be that 1 weak target in the defending guild that you want to take advantage of. However, I think it would require attacking guilds to be a bit more diversified, or at least not be able to "gang" up on 1 player only.

 

3) Please fix the rating transfer in GVG. Since the last updates made to it, it has been broken. Using personal experience in RA, we cannot gain any rating from the guilds in the top 10 that we can hit. We have only been able to lose it. I'm not sure the best way to adjust it, or what the limits of gaining/losing should be, but it's frustrating to only be able to lose and not be able to gain any back. There should be "retaliation" GVG's that can be initiated to re-gain lost rating if you happen to lose.

 

Thank you for the time, and I hope the community takes some time to respond and discuss.

[macb00k]

i like the ideas of medals and incentives to get GvGers going again.....

[DomCorvis]

Im all for quarterly resets and new GvG Guild Achievements! 

 

I do agree with needing better rp buff packs. The new enchant one is nice but not enough to use it often. 

 

Anything to breathe some life into REAL GvG is better than watching RP farmers destroy a once great part of the game.....

[tuvok77]

While I know GVG (Guild vs Guild) seems to have become a forgotten piece of the game, I think there are still ways that can re-vitalize GVG with new recipes and buff packages that are being released. While I still think RP rewards (epics) hurt the idea of GVG, I will put that aside for this discussion. My end goal is to try to breathe life into GVG again - both from the attacking and defending sides. The first suggestion was one that Ryebred and I talked about a long time ago, which he posted back on one of the development maps, and got a lot of great responses (from many GVG players, top rated and not, at the time):

 

Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:15

GvG needs attention - simple moves can improve it so very much, and I see no harm in trying something that isn't a complete alteration of GvG as we know it now.

How do you start - quarterly resets.  Every 3 months reset top rated list.  Why; because the top is stagnant, and upcoming guilds so far from getting close - it's downright discouraging.  

Reward the top at each reset; nothing fancy - just a little boost of RP to the tops - further increases incentive to compete.  GvGers are very proud, and little incentive is needed imo.

                1st - 300 RP
                2nd- 200 RP
                3rd- 150 RP
                4th & 5th - 100 RP
                6th-10th- 75 RP
                11th-25th- 50 RP
 
Don't go introducing more gear to be made with RP - want to include some updated buff packs that are with the times = great (buff packs that support the fields from which the currency to buy them is spawned would be an amazing revelation - titan hunting + GvG friendly packs) - but don't overdo it on the rewards.

 New guild medals in same light of ones recently introduced to recognize outstanding achievement on guild scale would be nice perk too..they can in themseves do something small like the current "
Guild Achievements " do - can represent few different catagories - top dogs, top 5, etc.

 

Quarterly resets: Im all for it, and my crew would love seeing a complete wipe.

300-50 RP is a bit too much reward for just getting to 1-25 in my opinion. 1/2 of that should be more appropriate. Just in the light of the current situation one could do only do max 10-30 GvGs per 10 days, then wait for cooldown etc. Unless the cooldown is adjusted.

 

How to adjust cooldown:

Apply the usual 10 Days cooldown to any guild that is at least 100 Rating below you. Any guild that is slightly lower than your guilds rating or above you, should only have a 5 day cooldown. That way more GvGs could take place. Im lobbying here especially for my guild. Cuz with the amount of GvGs that we churn out against all kinds of guilds, were stuck a whole week just waiting for the cooldowns to wear off. Which is really greatly discouraging.

 

 

 More potent buff packs: You got my vote.

 

On your second post you wrote adjustable Stam GvGing... Were you not the one lobbying strictly against it when we had that 50 stam GvGs in the seasons? Kinda funny you bring it up to reinvent the wheel, but ok, Im all for it aswell. I got stam overflow lots of time because I have to wait for cooldown, and dlvls happen only occasionally.

 

In seasons I had the reverse problem: I had literally 0 stamina most of the time because 100% of my stamina was used in GvGs. Would love seeing adjustable stam GvGs readded into the game.

 

 

About the rating transfer: As far as Ive observed it, the current rating transfer is similar to that of the current ladder. If you GvG a guild that has about 200-300 rating points more than you and you win against them, then you get around 30-40 Rating points. Also if vice versa, you win against a guild that has 300 less rating points than you, you wont get any rating at all. You will though, get rating from guilds that are up to 300 rating points in your range. I wouldnt know how to solve it properly since this issue is only taking place because there was never a wipe in the first place. With quarterly wipes one would be maximum be doing around up to 270 GvGs per quarter (that is provided you have 30 Target guilds to hit with a cooldown of every 10 days and rounding down a month to 30 days).

 

The average though is mostly 10-15 target guilds and adds up to a max of 135 GvGs in 4 months. With only 135 guilds you wont be skyrocketing and everything would be balanced.

[Kedyn]

Quarterly resets: Im all for it, and my crew would love seeing a complete wipe.

300-50 RP is a bit too much reward for just getting to 1-25 in my opinion. 1/2 of that should be more appropriate. Just in the light of the current situation one could do only do max 10-30 GvGs per 10 days, then wait for cooldown etc. Unless the cooldown is adjusted.

 

How to adjust cooldown:

Apply the usual 10 Days cooldown to any guild that is at least 100 Rating below you. Any guild that is slightly lower than your guilds rating or above you, should only have a 5 day cooldown. That way more GvGs could take place. Im lobbying here especially for my guild. Cuz with the amount of GvGs that we churn out against all kinds of guilds, were stuck a whole week just waiting for the cooldowns to wear off. Which is really greatly discouraging.

 

 

On your second post you wrote adjustable Stam GvGing... Were you not the one lobbying strictly against it when we had that 50 stam GvGs in the seasons? Kinda funny you bring it up to reinvent the wheel, but ok, Im all for it aswell. I got stam overflow lots of time because I have to wait for cooldown, and dlvls happen only occasionally.

 

On your first point - I am okay to adjust the RP amounts, but remember that it will take both attacking and defending to be able to compete. Not discounting your guild,but when you only have 4 targets to buff (all in the same range), it doesn't cost you as much to GVG. However, if you would look at our logs whenever we GVG, we spend thousands upon thousands of stamina whenever we go on the GVG's. Some of the more recent battles we had with No Drama have cost both side probably tens of thousands of stamina - I believe the RP rewards are fine.

 

I would think a 7 day cooldown would be enough to suffice. I like the idea of the 10 because then you can't continually run GVG's the same days over and over and over (ie every Friday and Sunday on the same guilds). I don't think it needs to be any less, but I'll leave that up to HCS on that point. I think part of the reason you run out of targets (not to pick on you) is because you're such a specialized guild. From experience, we're able to find about 30-40 guilds at a time (but choose not to hit because we'd rather hit faster - more than 1 target per person).

 

On the point you said I was against the higher stamina cost for GVG was only from the defending side. A defender who is the only target in a 50 hit GVG = 2500 stamina, which is almost all stamina a person can gain in a day. If you increase that to 75 or 100 hits, it's almost impossible for lower level players to return the hits. The other point that I didn't like was that 5x the cost should equal 5x the reward (unless that was the only option, which I said I was okay with at the time).  However, with the adjustable stamina costs for attackers, I think that 5x the stam and 10x the same shouldn't equal 5x the rewards and 10x the rewards. You should get less rewards for getting RP faster.

 

At the end of the day, it should be both about attacking and defending with the GVG ladder resets. I would hope that through some of these updates, we would see some increased activity in GVG paired with the rewards.

Edited by Kedyn, 26 September 2015 - 21:05.

[macb00k]

so one of your ideas is basically a ladder for Guild to participate in GvG? sounds interesting, maybe have guilds that GvG battle other guilds that GvG, IF they wanted to like Opt-in. (i have thought to much into this idea, its just like a rough one maybe)

 

mix the ladder with the seasons and GvG, you might get a decent idea, have more rewards other then packs, and Epic RP items... have the top GvGing guilds battle in a certain league (like the seasons) and battle against the others, determine who the real top GvG guild is

[tuvok77]

so one of your ideas is basically a ladder for Guild to participate in GvG? sounds interesting, maybe have guilds that GvG battle other guilds that GvG, IF they wanted to like Opt-in. (i have thought to much into this idea, its just like a rough one maybe)

 

mix the ladder with the seasons and GvG, you might get a decent idea, have more rewards other then packs, and Epic RP items... have the top GvGing guilds battle in a certain league (like the seasons) and battle against the others, determine who the real top GvG guild is

we have tops 10-20 active guilds atm that do GvGs on a regular basis, and not just once a month. Opting out of Conflicts would literally put it into a comatose state and not improve on the current almost dead situation we have right now. 

 

Also for leagues to be happening, we would need 10x more guilds active. in the good days in 2009, that would have been a possible idea, but as of now with an average of 350 players active, you cant really expect that to be put into the game. 90% of guilds would instantly opt out of it, similar to what happened to the seasons.

[macb00k]

we have tops 10-20 active guilds atm that do GvGs on a regular basis, and not just once a month. Opting out of Conflicts would literally put it into a comatose state and not improve on the current almost dead situation we have right now. 

 

Also for leagues to be happening, we would need 10x more guilds active. in the good days in 2009, that would have been a possible idea, but as of now with an average of 350 players active, you cant really expect that to be put into the game. 90% of guilds would instantly opt out of it, similar to what happened to the seasons.

Didnt say it was a good option but maybe some sort of one for when we get more people playing? leagues wise...

[Kedyn]

Didnt say it was a good option but maybe some sort of one for when we get more people playing? leagues wise...

 

Mac - I had thought about your suggestion when I was originally suggesting the GVG Ladder type reset. I opted against putting in the Opt-In / Opt-Out because of how many guilds there really are. Sure, there is going to be some GVG's initiated against guilds that want nothing to do with GVG, but I don't think there are enough active guilds out there, or active guilds as Tuvok had said that would really opt-in. I'm almost positive we'll see a few new guilds pop up if it happens that are specialized, or keep out of specific level ranges, as we had seen whenever GVG was last updated.

 

I'd like to see all guilds included, but it was a hard choice to not include what you suggested for Opt-In. I'm not entirely sure how to combat the idea that players logs may fill up, unless HCS maybe looks into taking away gear damage, or reducing it. I know durability loss is important in GVG, but it may be a concession players have to give into in order to try to keep the "masses" happier about the changes.

 

I feel like if the "tiered" stamina is used, more guilds will probably use the 50/100 stam options to get RP faster. However, with defenders only needing to spend 10 stam on returning hits, I think that it may give some guilds some more motivation to defend and/or return hits. I could definitely be wrong in my assumption, but I think it would definitely give some incentives to defend and hit back, which is something that is lacking with many guilds.

 

I apologize to all for the long posts - just trying to talk through things and try to help improve suggestions - at the end of the day, I just want to see GVG given some new life (outside of RP rewards).

[tuvok77]

I feel like if the "tiered" stamina is used, more guilds will probably use the 50/100 stam options to get RP faster. However, with defenders only needing to spend 10 stam on returning hits, I think that it may give some guilds some more motivation to defend and/or return hits. I could definitely be wrong in my assumption, but I think it would definitely give some incentives to defend and hit back, which is something that is lacking with many guilds.

 

I would really hope for more guilds to hit us back, It doesnt matter if we hit a 900 rating guild or a 1500+ rating guild. In 100+ GvGs only about 20% of guilds (statistically) returned hits on us. Of these returning hits we had 5 draws, 1 loss (against Wigg Splitters, which was frankly a GvG in which I personally was awake at 3 am in the morning, shaking my head at our target being 24/7 buffed up, unbeatable unless you took a risk of loosing, I spent personally 4 EPIC gold pots in it and I still remember that GvG very vivid, needless to say we still lost it after investing heavily in not loosing it)

 

BUT, I doubt many guilds will raise their arms and march to a conflict. I expect an increase of 5% in retaliations. Still an increase as it is, and after all, even a marginal increase in GvG is a good thing.

[DomCorvis]

I would really hope for more guilds to hit us back, It doesnt matter if we hit a 900 rating guild or a 1500+ rating guild. In 100+ GvGs only about 20% of guilds (statistically) returned hits on us. Of these returning hits we had 5 draws, 1 loss (against Wigg Splitters, which was frankly a GvG in which I personally was awake at 3 am in the morning, shaking my head at our target being 24/7 buffed up, unbeatable unless you took a risk of loosing, I spent personally 4 EPIC gold pots in it and I still remember that GvG very vivid, needless to say we still lost it after investing heavily in not loosing it)

 

BUT, I doubt many guilds will raise their arms and march to a conflict. I expect an increase of 5% in retaliations. Still an increase as it is, and after all, even a marginal increase in GvG is a good thing.

 

 

The scenario you describe is pretty much 80%+ of our GvG's(except the loss part of course), 

 

I agree ANY increase in GvG activity is a good thing. But there needs to be some type of better reward for returning hits and properly defending also. 

 

 

As ive said before I am all for a rating reset and a quarterly or random resets but they'd have to be at least a month long minimum to be worth it. BUT there needs to be an all-time greats ladder of sorts too....to show respect to those guilds who have held their spots for longer than most have played the game. And I dont just speak of RA...KotFW, OoDP,etc have ALL earned their spots(even if KotFW is currently inactive they still hold the 2nd highest rating should they become active)

 

 

I think there should be a Guild Dominance achievement....similar to the PvP dominance medal but with the benefits of achievements(+1 gs slot,+10max stam, etc) for taking 1st place on GvG ladder for X amount of resets. 

[Kedyn]

As another suggestion, I believe the level ranges for GVG could be increased, as the last update really is only 701+ for +/- 100 levels. 

 

The current range is as stated:

 

50 - 300 (+/- 25)

301 - 700 (+/- 50)

701+ (+/- 100)

 

Personally, I feel the lower level ranges should be reduced, as there is a higher population down there, or should be if the App release is successful and HCS keeps making decent updates.

 

My idea would be something like this:

 

50 - 200 (+/- 25)

201 - 400 (+/- 50)

401 - 700 (+/- 75)

701 - 1000 (+/- 100)

1001 - 1500 (+/- 125)

1501 - 2000 (+/- 150)

2001+ (+/- 200)

 

I'm not sure if that's too many ranges, or if it would necessarily work out, as I'm not sure what the groupings between active players are. I know that these ranges are a bit large at the tail-end of higher levels. There definitely will be mis-matches in gears when two targets are fully buffed, but I think it may be a necessary evil so that there are more targets for players.

 

 If HCS would be able to provide some data, it'd be a fun exercise to see the bell curve (or probably reverse bell-curve) of active players across the level ranges. 

[Kedyn]

Another suggestion:

 

Allow an attack option on the players profile page. The attacker is at a huge disadvantage currently, especially if the target is online. Currently, there is a large delay between checking a player and then selecting their name from drop-down menu of the attack page. It really makes it difficult to hit a player who is online and willing to "dance", as you have a delay after changing your gear, checking their stats and then getting to the attack player page. It allows the target time to change gear in the few seconds it would take (I'm pretty sure I did it to someone today, where I saw them change gear and I switched to a different set and caused a loss).

[DomCorvis]

Another suggestion:

 

Allow an attack option on the players profile page. The attacker is at a huge disadvantage currently, especially if the target is online. Currently, there is a large delay between checking a player and then selecting their name from drop-down menu of the attack page. It really makes it difficult to hit a player who is online and willing to "dance", as you have a delay after changing your gear, checking their stats and then getting to the attack player page. It allows the target time to change gear in the few seconds it would take (I'm pretty sure I did it to someone today, where I saw them change gear and I switched to a different set and caused a loss).

 

 

this is something that should be added!! we have an attack button for regular/ladder/bb attacks....why not a Guild conflict attack?

 

when you have 20 conflicts going with 2-5 targets per guild, scrolling thru the list of names on the guild conflict page can be a huge hassle...after a few hrs of constant scrolling i can say i wanted to punch myself in the face for getting myself into this scenario

Edited by DomCorvis, 03 October 2015 - 22:47.

[DomCorvis]

Also....after running thru ALL the top 10 gvg guilds that we could(3-4) we gained a whole whopping 7 rating....7.....what is the incentive for us to hit more often? a tiny bit of RP that is worth FAR FAR less than what we spent to buff/pot up and defend!

 

Thank you cows for secretly changing the GvG rating system(we gained 0 rating from anyone before...so i guess 7 is better than 0 but still......)

 

We have often been affected poorly by the changes made to GvG....yet we continue to GvG and continue to be #1. 

 

BG/Hoof GvG needs more improvement than simply a few new OVERPOWERED epics...It needs updated and more support. 

[Spider0007]

Can we get a GvG attack link posted on players bio pages too. Trying to find targets in multiple guilds the way it is currently set up is very time consuming and frustrating. There is already a short link to pvp and bounty hunt. Can we please get a guild conflict attack link!!!

[tuvok77]

=.TDNW Lord Commander Reporting in.=

 

-GvG quick attack button should be placed on the profile page next to the "attack player/ladder attack/bounty attack"

 

-I told before that there was a Ninja update and that RA could now again earn Rating. Though because of their huge gap to the other guilds its no wonder that you earning only a slight margin of what is possible) Thats exactly like QQing bout our guild not getting rating from hit-farming guild that are below 900 rating points. I feel the current rating change system is fine as it is.

 

-We saw a steep increase in GvG activity, aswell as some attempts of GvG multis trying to get out of their tombs again. We feel HCS approach to it had a very satisfactionate outcome and we appreciate the effort that was put in on squashing the new attempts of rule breaking. Props up to BG!

 

-Last but not least we also noticed a heavy increase "statistically" in retaliation activity, which TDNW gladly approve! The overall increase was from 20% in 10 GvGs (before the new GvG Epics) to 60% in 10 GvGs (5.10.2015). Now we can only assume that this is because new inventable GvG Epics were released and we are glad that GvG got rejuvinated by it to an extent. Though we would suggest that GvG should get more love in the soon future, for oversaturation of the market can happen in no less than 6-12 months, and we hope for the good of the whole GvG realm that more changes will be applied to this aspect of the game.

 

Vala Morghulis.

 

=. End of Transmission.=

[Spider0007]

Edited by Spider0007, 06 October 2015 - 14:03.

[Kedyn]

-GvG quick attack button should be placed on the profile page next to the "attack player/ladder attack/bounty attack"

 

-I told before that there was a Ninja update and that RA could now again earn Rating. Though because of their huge gap to the other guilds its no wonder that you earning only a slight margin of what is possible) Thats exactly like QQing bout our guild not getting rating from hit-farming guild that are below 900 rating points. I feel the current rating change system is fine as it is.

 

-Last but not least we also noticed a heavy increase "statistically" in retaliation activity, which TDNW gladly approve! The overall increase was from 20% in 10 GvGs (before the new GvG Epics) to 60% in 10 GvGs (5.10.2015). Now we can only assume that this is because new inventable GvG Epics were released and we are glad that GvG got rejuvinated by it to an extent. Though we would suggest that GvG should get more love in the soon future, for oversaturation of the market can happen in no less than 6-12 months, and we hope for the good of the whole GvG realm that more changes will be applied to this aspect of the game.

 

Vala Morghulis.

 

=. End of Transmission.=

 

#1 - Agree about the attack button. We've requested it 3 different times in this thread and have messaged a few different times about it. It's a huge disadvantage for the attacking guild (which I guess isn't really that big of a deal in terms of evening out the playing field of attackers getting the advantage), but is a detriment to GVG as it probably causes people to second guess actually GVG'ing.

 

#2 - We did get some rating, but nothing that was worth the stamina and cost that was spent. Unfortunately, I'm thinking you should check your math. We were hitting guilds that were about 200-300 rating under us, which would equate to you hitting guilds that have 1100 or 1200 rating. We hit all of the top guilds that had a target for us to hit. Period. There was no preying on players, there was no 2 or 3 v 1 player, where they are the only one who could return attacks. While I don't think rating transfer needs to be large (there shouldn't ever be a transfer more than 10-15 points on a single GVG), I don't like the rating transfer system as is. If someone who has 900 rating hits someone who is 1500 rating and wins, you lose a huge amount, however that 1500 guild doesn't have a chance to get that rating back. 

 

#3 - I actually saw less retaliation in the 20 GVG's that we ran this weekend than the last time we ran GVG's, and that was 15. I don't think statistically I could agree with you or disagree. I guess a lot of it could be about the idea that the top ladder is stale and people have become complacent with their place, which is never good for anything. This is part of the reason I've suggested the things that I have in the beginning - Ladder Reset and forcing teams to be more diverse so that there is more competition. 

Edited by Kedyn, 06 October 2015 - 14:10.