186 replies to this topic

[slipknot84]

and with everyone ahving a ton of melee defence its a rarity to hit 3k let alone 5k+

[HuMoR]

having it is one thing...being able to use it is another. mage with proph talents...infinite soothsaying.

having it is one thing...then having it and being able to use it 100% is another that's too much dmg coming from those classes,also only a prophet can remove all those bleeds that fast and if the sin knows how to pvp..the proph wont even live it. mages cant get 95% haste like the prophets can lol.

[HuMoR]

and with everyone ahving a ton of melee defence its a rarity to hit 3k let alone 5k+

this is a scenario based thing based off the present time,not overall time. how do you think gems will be in the future with 50 content with most being mage based npc's.

[ernzor]

i want to vs these prophets that guth plays against. sound like fun

[HuMoR]

i want to vs these prophets that guth plays against. sound like fun

you already have,lahara is one of em.

[Doja]

Everyone talks about Warriors having high DPS, but Warriors still die very quickly.  So clearly other classes are hitting quite hard.  Two ranged focusing on one Warrior will down him before a three second stun wears off.

 

I have almost 2K DPS.  Yet when I do catch a ranged I still have to unload seven skills to kill him (if it kills him before he escapes).  And these skills do have animations.  Each skill requires about a second (or two for lethal conc due to extra buttons and aiming).

 

When an opposing team has multiple ranged they are running forward and back, basically using hit and run tactics.  The second I charge in they all hit tab (or "e") which locks them on me and they focus fire.  The alternative is to stay back out of range.  But this leaves my ranged teammates fighting a man down.

 

And DPS is only one factor.  Rate of fire is another (for basic attacks).  And DPS % is the other for skills.  So lets do some math assuming Warrior has 2K DPS, and Ranger/Mage has 1.5K DPS.

 

I'll be using my current Warsin build for the Warrior analysis at the moment.

 

Warrior

 

Meteorite:  2K * 175% = 3500 [3 second stun] (Note: Can easily miss if opponent is running, as it is a small area attack as opposed to a tracking attack)

 

Lethal Concoction:  2K * 70% = 1400 per second until stepped off (typically 1-3 seconds as Meteorite only stuns for three and casting this requires a second or two).

 

Frozen Spires (Instant): 2K * 50% = 1000

 

Frozen Spires (Potential Bleed): 2K * (2 * 20%) = 800 per second if moving (trick is not to move; of course one teleport opens distance from Warrior without needing to walk and incur the damage).

 

Sear:  2K * 30% = 600 for 10 seconds (6000) if not removed [maxed Blazing Strike talent]

 

Rupture:  2K * 20% = 400 for 10 seconds (4000) if not removed

 

Hail Storm:  2K * (3 * 75%) = 4500 (With an additional talent point this could be 3*80%, or 4800 - but that's how thin my talent points are when staying PvE feasible and committing necessary points to Adrenaline Rush, Midnight's Grasp, extended Jolt, etc.)

 

Moment of Glory (Standard): 2K * 150% = 3000

 

Moment of Glory (Under 30% HP): 2K * 380% = 7600 (but come on, if a target is under 30% HP they won't typically have more than a couple thousand anyway).

 

Jolt:  2K * 125% = 2500

 

Ranger

 

I don't have a specific build to use here but I'll run through some of the basics.

 

Black Fang: 1500 * 145% = 2175 (3 second cooldown at most, possibly 1.5 seconds)

 

Haemorrhage (Instant): 1500 * 100% = 1500 (assuming three points Exit Wound).

 

Haemorrhage (Bleed): 1500 * 15% = 225 for 6-14 seconds (1350 - 3150) if not removed

 

Haemorrhage (Bonus):  All other Ranged attacks do 10% more damage.  Since Haemorrhage has only a 2 second cooldown even using Serentiy isn't a real solution as it will be right back.  Thus basic ranged attack (and ranged skills??) do 10% more damage.  Ranger now effectively has 1650 DPS, at least for basic attacks.

 

Crystal Blast:  1500 * 70% = 1050 (mostly a stun/slow skill)

 

Envenom: 1500 * 84% = 1260 for 5 seconds (6300) if not removed [Note: This does more damage than a 2K sear, deals the damage twice as fast, and can be placed on an enemy from long range].

 

Blood Fang:  1500 * 200% = 3000

 

I'm not familiar enough with current Ranger builds to speculate much further.  Detonate is an option (1500 * 170% = 2550).  Obviously Rangers also suffer from the dilemma of addressing PvE with their builds.  Certainly there are PvE skills Rangers use frequently in dungeons that I don't see being used in PvP, such as Tornado.

 

Mage

 

The Mage/Prophet hyrbid has been a hot topic of late.  I'll primarily focus on Mage here though.  The additional 25% damage tacked on is from Arcane Wrath talent.

 

Incinerate:  1500 * 150% = 2250 + 25% = 2812.5  (could be 10% higher with talents; could also deal an addition 30% slow burn with Blazing Embers).  [1 second cast time but no cool down.]

 

Overload: 1500 * 215% = 3225 + 25% = 4031.25 (requires two talent points in Overpowered - otherwise is 175% DPS; also slows) [2 second cast time]

 

Boiling Blood (Plus Four Talent Points):  1500 * 50% = 750 + 25% = 937.5 for 10 seconds (9375) if not removed. [2 second cast time]

 

Ignite (Plus Apocolypse):  1500 * 300% = 4500 + 25% = 5625  (plus 3 second stun; instant cast).  [Note: This is MORE damage than my hail storm, stuns for 3 seconds, is insta cast from distance, and cools down 5 seconds faster]

 

Cauterize:  Let's just say its a very massive dose of health; equivalent or better to an HP pot.  So a mage gets essentially two pots: a real pot and a caut pot.

 

I won't even proceed further into the other skills like Fulmination.  Its unnecessary at this point.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Not going to carefully analyze it now.  But all classes are capable of unloading big damage.  Only the Warrior can't unload the damage at a distance though.  And only the Mage gets a free heal.  While a full damage 6K sear seems terrifying, it is less damage than both Envenom and Boiling blood - and Envenom strikes much faster (half the time) and Boiling Blood does almost 50% more damage, despite a mage "having less DPS."  And while a Warrior uses heavy armor, in order to achieve the high DPS with Offensive Stance he has to sacrifice armor back.

Edited by Doja, 24 November 2014 - 08:53.

[Simeonus]

I though about solution:

 

While Frenzy is on Rush works like Eclipse, for 30s you can catch anyone then for 1.5m again you are trash Seems to be fair.

Edited by Simeonus, 24 November 2014 - 09:16.

[ernzor]

Substitute sin for war in dojis post. Is me.

[D4VYJONES]

I got spawn-camped today. Can someone please teach me how to kite a melee guy that use jolt, rush followed by grasp please?

[HuMoR]

Everyone talks about Warriors having high DPS, but Warriors still die very quickly.  So clearly other classes are hitting quite hard.  Two ranged focusing on one Warrior will down him before a three second stun wears off.

 

I have almost 2K DPS.  Yet when I do catch a ranged I still have to unload seven skills to kill him (if it kills him before he escapes).  And these skills do have animations.  Each skill requires about a second (or two for lethal conc due to extra buttons and aiming).

 

When an opposing team has multiple ranged they are running forward and back, basically using hit and run tactics.  The second I charge in they all hit tab (or "e") which locks them on me and they focus fire.  The alternative is to stay back out of range.  But this leaves my ranged teammates fighting a man down.

 

And DPS is only one factor.  Rate of fire is another (for basic attacks).  And DPS % is the other for skills.  So lets do some math assuming Warrior has 2K DPS, and Ranger/Mage has 1.5K DPS.

 

I'll be using my current Warsin build for the Warrior analysis at the moment.

 

Warrior

 

Meteorite:  2K * 175% = 3500 [3 second stun] (Note: Can easily miss if opponent is running, as it is a small area attack as opposed to a tracking attack)

 

Lethal Concoction:  2K * 70% = 1400 per second until stepped off (typically 1-3 seconds as Meteorite only stuns for three and casting this requires a second or two).

 

Frozen Spires (Instant): 2K * 50% = 1000

 

Frozen Spires (Potential Bleed): 2K * (2 * 20%) = 800 per second if moving (trick is not to move; of course one teleport opens distance from Warrior without needing to walk and incur the damage).

 

Sear:  2K * 30% = 600 for 10 seconds (6000) if not removed [maxed Blazing Strike talent]

 

Rupture:  2K * 20% = 400 for 10 seconds (4000) if not removed

 

Hail Storm:  2K * (3 * 75%) = 4500 (With an additional talent point this could be 3*80%, or 4800 - but that's how thin my talent points are when staying PvE feasible and committing necessary points to Adrenaline Rush, Midnight's Grasp, extended Jolt, etc.)

 

Moment of Glory (Standard): 2K * 150% = 3000

 

Moment of Glory (Under 30% HP): 2K * 380% = 7600 (but come on, if a target is under 30% HP they won't typically have more than a couple thousand anyway).

 

Jolt:  2K * 125% = 2500

 

Ranger

 

I don't have a specific build to use here but I'll run through some of the basics.

 

Black Fang: 1500 * 145% = 2175 (3 second cooldown at most, possibly 1.5 seconds)

 

Haemorrhage (Instant): 1500 * 100% = 1500 (assuming three points Exit Wound).

 

Haemorrhage (Bleed): 1500 * 15% = 225 for 6-14 seconds (1350 - 3150) if not removed

 

Haemorrhage (Bonus):  All other Ranged attacks do 10% more damage.  Since Haemorrhage has only a 2 second cooldown even using Serentiy isn't a real solution as it will be right back.  Thus basic ranged attack (and ranged skills??) do 10% more damage.  Ranger now effectively has 1650 DPS, at least for basic attacks.

 

Crystal Blast:  1500 * 70% = 1050 (mostly a stun/slow skill)

 

Envenom: 1500 * 84% = 1260 for 5 seconds (6300) if not removed [Note: This does more damage than a 2K sear, deals the damage twice as fast, and can be placed on an enemy from long range].

 

Blood Fang:  1500 * 200% = 3000

 

I'm not familiar enough with current Ranger builds to speculate much further.  Detonate is an option (1500 * 170% = 2550).  Obviously Rangers also suffer from the dilemma of addressing PvE with their builds.  Certainly there are PvE skills Rangers use frequently in dungeons that I don't see being used in PvP, such as Tornado.

 

Mage

 

The Mage/Prophet hyrbid has been a hot topic of late.  I'll primarily focus on Mage here though.  The additional 25% damage tacked on is from Arcane Wrath talent.

 

Incinerate:  1500 * 150% = 2250 + 25% = 2812.5  (could be 10% higher with talents; could also deal an addition 30% slow burn with Blazing Embers).  [1 second cast time but no cool down.]

 

Overload: 1500 * 215% = 3225 + 25% = 4031.25 (requires two talent points in Overpowered - otherwise is 175% DPS; also slows) [2 second cast time]

 

Boiling Blood (Plus Four Talent Points):  1500 * 50% = 750 + 25% = 937.5 for 10 seconds (9375) if not removed. [2 second cast time]

 

Ignite (Plus Apocolypse):  1500 * 300% = 4500 + 25% = 5625  (plus 3 second stun; instant cast).  [Note: This is MORE damage than my hail storm, stuns for 3 seconds, is insta cast from distance, and cools down 5 seconds faster]

 

Cauterize:  Let's just say its a very massive dose of health; equivalent or better to an HP pot.  So a mage gets essentially two pots: a real pot and a caut pot.

 

I won't even proceed further into the other skills like Fulmination.  Its unnecessary at this point.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Not going to carefully analyze it now.  But all classes are capable of unloading big damage.  Only the Warrior can't unload the damage at a distance though.  And only the Mage gets a free heal.  While a full damage 6K sear seems terrifying, it is less damage than both Envenom and Boiling blood - and Envenom strikes much faster (half the time) and Boiling Blood does almost 50% more damage, despite a mage "having less DPS."  And while a Warrior uses heavy armor, in order to achieve the high DPS with Offensive Stance he has to sacrifice armor back.

lol doja..you make me laugh sometimes X D in what lifetime does jolt only do 2k dmg ? 
and why is bane not on that list? have you seen the dmg it does even if they are on a running 3.5-4.5 dist? 
the warrior has too many high hitting talents to be able to do both,you will have to sacrifice as the rest do...
and your scenario of 2 ranged vsing 1 war..is a bit...of a ridiculous comment...2 wars vs 1 ranged would easily down the ranged if they know how. 
further adding..you failed to mention the initial hit of that rupture lol..which ignores everything XD 

rangers instants fast pace spam
mages very slow most cast time class in game
warsins slow animations fast recov

if you havent learned this by now..then you shouldn't be playing the classes...or making basic assumptions XD

the war class simply has too many high hitting moves...and they will need to be reduced in order for that class to get an update like "keep up with my enemy the whole time so I don't have to use any skill at all" hear soo much whining from wars..when they are afraid to use a select different style of build mentioned many many times in the past...
"I don't wanna use that build because my class should just be able to keep up with everything and dish out the highest dmg" is basically all i continue to read on these forums lol....

coming from the only class in the game who can keep their enemies nerfed by 90% movement speed at all times and rotate a whopping total of 27 seconds of cc blasting chain spam on their enemies...If this class gets buffed any more in the sense of keeping up...you will just ruin the game for the other 5 classes..so take the dmg reduct for the ability to be lazy is a pretty good alternative.
 

[redsmokeboy]

Guthix Teash use how vs keep comneting on post as aperntly now all. Post so usefull topic's

War's have there issue as state.

 

Clear understand how thing's work pls post some usefull build's and tip information to issue, With detailed constructive mean's.

 

AS you see it as not issue pls give us some to look at to compare - work with All see you complaing about other's when clearly have not given much feed back or usefull inforamtion change man's.

 

Start's see some  build spec - deatailed anilse of skill usage -

Mybe even possible video if so incliend as clearly understand how skill's work as typing only show's 1 aspec vs in game usage.

 

War's 1.0 attack speed - Polearm - staff 1.25

assin - Ranger's Mage 1.66 or so most main weapon usage

War have high dps over all limited 1 Build or the other.

 

Possible make PVE - PVP build - be function in game ?

Many possible build option as for war limited on subject issue of PvP or PvE unlike Mage's profit's assin

Ranger's all effectivly do pvp and pve with out sacferacine PvE content.

 

Take war in to account pick 1 or the other - Hybered build spec even pvp.

war pure PvE - hybered assin more PvE less effective in nomral PVP

Templar - Very limited in pvp still has potional mean's - Limited on PvE tanking or kinda losing out for threath skill for DPS mange pvp match with out healer.

 

http://talenttheory....N1Ae3g2Ma2d1i2/

 

Speed build made, cover ok pvp build limited PvE contet usage.

 

USe some tip's - change to this.

alow's slow's 70% - issue haste manging skill usage.

mostly apllyed for for dmg - Bosting blood blath better skill to use.

Edited by redsmokeboy, 24 November 2014 - 11:22.

[redsmokeboy]

Build spec

70^ slow

Bane dub dmg

Bleed's - ignoring armor

speed + armor bosting

50% bost to bloodboath 3 traget range usefull - fast cool down

Some doge mele thought better use in other skill 0 Updare this as mele not iussue as for spell - range.

Going try and change some aspec and updare new build spec.

 

http://talenttheory....e3g2Ma2d1i2Pa1/

 

Some what better srill bneed's work

 

for this to work need crit gem's - best can find. - good gybered weapon with Hight crit's perby staff as has 1.25 att speed.  as well staff add small % to healing usefull.

 

Probly going be using ess for added healing power here as well lose some DPS but not issue as mosting slowing them and off laoding dot's, Crit make up for lose attack power.

 

Over all added crit and lovly dot's and slow power if mange kill you probly dead from all those dot's

 

Looking at staff - ess hybered war - build probly better off set for war along with slow and speed - Skill point;'s are there and off set for build to work. Not sure on other stat's

Mele - vit mean's probly add vit as hp key factor if going to libe or not.

 

Thought with ess need change build spec remove jolt slince add upgrade more point's in mage tree for despaire.

 

added for more speed bosting with snear skill frost bite.

Update with better build spec for staff/ess war

Edited by redsmokeboy, 24 November 2014 - 11:53.

[HuMoR]

sent.

Also,I will further add,when lvl 50 comes out war class will be the only class in the game that can slow their enemy by 100% so you won't be able to move...ever. aside from miasma and recall...so gg to ranged classes XD(even with a perfect zirc your movement will be 0)

Edited by HuMoR, 24 November 2014 - 13:18.

[HuMoR]

Also,too many people are talking as well if I spec pvp i can't be good at pve w/e or use that as an excuse for being lazy..the thing is pvp and pve builds are meant to be seperate,you can't truly balance a game based off both its impossible. Giving the war class another effect similar to eclipse would ruin pvp for this game tbh. This class should be left alone in all honesty. Highest dmg,ignore armor and defense,+ be able to hit everyone regardless of them being ranged...would be far too much. every clss has a weakness,you just have to use your brain and find out what it is...

Edited by HuMoR, 24 November 2014 - 13:36.

[Rez]

What's the point of slowing your enemy 100% as a melee user if they can still range you when you get close - which you will b forced to do in order to defeat them.

 

Seriously. Melee should be the only ones with Stun ability. They should be the only ones to deflect. And they should be the only ones with teleport.

[KeS]

too many numbers 0-0

[Medi3vil]

Also,too many people are talking as well if I spec pvp i can't be good at pve w/e or use that as an excuse for being lazy..the thing is pvp and pve builds are meant to be seperate,you can't truly balance a game based off both its impossible. Giving the war class another effect similar to eclipse would ruin pvp for this game tbh. This class should be left alone in all honesty. Highest dmg,ignore armor and defense,+ be able to hit everyone regardless of them being ranged...would be far too much. every clss has a weakness,you just have to use your brain and find out what it is...

 

1000% agreed with this 

[Doja]

1000% agreed with this 

 

Well dual-builds are coming.  So that should clear up this issue.  Which is a good thing.  The concept that a person should have to pick between PvE or PvP is retarded.  Then any player who wants to be effective in PvE cannot effectively PvP and vice versa.

[Doja]

Assorted responses...

 

- Yet I don't see Guthix using a Warrior to PvP, despite his comments of how OP they are.  Nor do any of the top PvP players use Warrior.  The top PvP players will pick the best class.  So perhaps you're right that the people use Warriors aren't as skilled.  But it also proves that the most skilled people know better than to use Warrior.

 

- Reason Bane and Ruin aren't on the list is because there's no room for them on the skill bar.  This goes back to the original post of there being too many necessary skills versus the amount of space.

 

- The purpose of this last post was in response to the comment "Warriors have so much DPS."  Everyone knows Bleeds are the most powerful attacks because they ignore armor.  Yet the top bleed of Ranger and Mage are more powerful and can be cast at a distance, despite their "lower DPS."  And I didn't even begin to calculate rate of fire of basic attacks and what not.

[Doja]

I got spawn-camped today. Can someone please teach me how to kite a melee guy that use jolt, rush followed by grasp please?

 

Sure.  The first problem is that you're being camped (which is frowned upon).  If you don't have adequate space then there's an issue.

 

But if you start the encounter at long range its easy.  When he casts Jolt start running.  The Jolt will track you, like all ranged attacks, but you're naturally faster (assuming you have Fleetfoot and a Zirc in boots - like all Rangers).  Just run away until Jolt wears off.  You'll be out of range of adrenaline rush.