137 replies to this topic

[Chazz224]

"Fix" is an interesting term... How do you define it? What you may consider a "fix" may be game breaking to others. Which upset party are they supposed to listen to?

 

I have never advocated for the removal of pvp... just to soften the teeth especially for GVP. Today was an interesting example. I'm sure a player broke some kind of rule and ended up posting 6 pages worth of various players from mostly one guild. That seems more GVP then PVP but I digress. What made it interesting was the dancing on his grave as many involved rubbed it in and slapped each other on the backs as a job well done. This really showed how PVP is so awesome for the rest of FS land... Interesting I thought.

 

I have to thank Pardoux for debunking your SS2 claim. I have no knowledge and have never played so I would have no clue. My thoughts are games go through cycles. I believe (hopefully I'm not breaking a rule) WOW is one of the biggest games out there... Not sure if they have pvp or not but if they eliminated it in 2010, then you really got some major proof to back your hypothesis, otherwise I think as this article points out, content was just to slow... the article could be wrong too but if a major game like that bleeds players at that rate, I don't think you can pin it on one thing.

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to engage in thoughtful discussion. I am learning a lot from almost everyone that posts.

First I edited the post to define " FIX as a means to change" Change was or would have been a more appropriate word but it was late for me.

 

Now in terms of the Bounty Board and the usage of GvP ( Guild vs Player)

 

The Bounty Board has " ALWAYS " served as a means to punish a player via xp loss. HCS long ago changed and added a limit to how much XP ( Experience) any one player could or may lose at most per bounty (this being 5 levels per bounty).  I see no issue with this at all - whether it is a guild of players banding together or a group of friends banding together I do not see what the problem is? The bounty board is a means to an end that involves the usage of PvP but is not the Heart or soul of PvP in this game. If a group or guild of players banding together to destroy a titan or a player that's on the Bounty Board their is no difference in retrospect. We are looking at activity and team work which I see as a positive thing and you seem to view this as a negative thing, so perhaps we will agree to disagree on this matter.

 

In regards to the 6 pages and a certain player if you must know the player in question double dipped ( this means attacking a player then posting a Bounty on the Player) Perfectly legal while frowned on. Our Guild Founder was warned and threatened by the poster and in addition the poster also sent nasty messages to our guild mate that were considered unnecessary. 

 

Now as to Sigma Storm - the PvP in that game was terrible - it was even worse then the Fallen Sword average PvP Ladder here - Just picture the hassle of finding a player on the world map where as you are standing on him to pvp - Pardoux has his opinion and I have my own - but despite my opinion or his the fact remains the game failed and was shut down - HCS didn't say it was for reasons a,b,c, or d - they didn't say and I doubt if or when this games time comes to a close that they will say then either. The fact of the matter is it happened and it is only my opinion that PvP was far worse in that game.

 

- Chazz

Edited by Chazz224, 31 March 2014 - 15:46.

[RebornJedi]

• Bring the Smasher Medal back to regular PvP and add a Gold Thievery medal as well
• Reduce the possibility of losing 5 levels from the Bounty Board to 1 level.. get rid of double XP loss on BB
• If you use 100 stamina attacks on the BB, you can be lose up to 2 levels if counter bounty'd
• Winner of Bounty is exempt from counter bounty if they used 10 stamina hits
• Raise PvP attack range to -/+ 25 levels
• Improve the Attack Player interface to include ALL possible targets (not just those in your PvP band) and their gold in hand.
• PvP Events

 

You wish to see PvP activity, just do the first two.. The BB would be filled with pages and pages.. You reduce the overall risk and you'll see more and new faces in PvP.. 

Edited by RebornJedi, 31 March 2014 - 16:54.

[DomCorvis]

 

• Bring the Smasher Medal back to regular PvP and add a Gold Thievery medal as well
• Reduce the possibility of losing 5 levels from the Bounty Board to 1 level.. get rid of double XP loss on BB
• If you use 100 stamina attacks on the BB, you can be lose up to 2 levels if counter bounty'd
• Winner of Bounty is exempt from counter bounty 
• Raise PvP attack range to -/+ 25 levels
• Improve the Attack Player interface to include ALL possible targets (not just those in your PvP band) and their gold in hand.
• PvP Events

 

You wish to see PvP activity, just do the first two.. The BB would be filled with pages and pages.. You reduce the overall risk and you'll see more and new faces in PvP.. 

 

 

 

I'm ok with everything except  1. xp loss on BB should be a little higher(2-2.5 lvls? fair compromise?), 2. Any bounty hunter/smasher should be able to be bountied.(group of smashers rip levels and you can only post some of them because 1 cleared the bounty? dont like that idea)

 

change those 2 things and its a +1 from me!!

[RebornJedi]

1: was gonna half the level loss risk on the BB but felt like a dramatic reduction would bring more people to PvP.. 2.5 levels is still a big loss for one 100 stamina attack that took 10% of someone's level and some of their gold.. i'm looking to invite players to PvP in open world, i don't wish to keep around this idea that a bigger risk is good for PvP. plus losing 1 level for one 100 stamina hit is still a big risk. at my level it takes around 3k stamina to make that back. 

 

2: forgot to put you have to be using 10 stamina for the clear to be exempt from a counter bounty.. what are your thoughts on that? 

 

my views on the bonus reward for the bounty hunter is to promote fast, clean clears.. tis why i suggested making those who smash on bounties risk losing 2 levels on their counter bounty - might have to increase that to stop bounties from losing 1 level every time no matter what.. maybe have 'smasher' bounties get the double XP loss feature.. need to find a balance so not every bounty is smashed to 0 XP

[DomCorvis]

I still think 10 stam clears should have option to be bountied BUT if it was a deal breaker I'd say Ok go for it. It'd take ALOTo f effort/team work/coordination to 10 stam rip 5 levels. even 2.5 lvls and that is what we want right? team work and effort?

 

I think halfing what the potential loss is now is more than a fair compromise...It keeps SOME risk...after all...If i MT someone for 10 mil+ they will want to see me lose more than 1 level...and i would hope i did...

 

I remember losing 40+lvls on a single bounty way back when during a guild war when i first started pvp'n.....then shortly after it was changed to 5 max levels and I thought that was amazing, But I see the fear of others...but shouldnt theifs be afraid of being punished? 2.5 lvls would be fair i think

[watagashi]

hmmm some are pretty good ideas here.

 

The first thing I WOULD NOT DO is remove bountys from the board, I mean do they really want me spending my day doing 9/10s hits on every bounty??? Ill still get prestige right?

 

I posted a lot on this a few times over the years, just dont have the heart to try now. I did vote on a couple things I agree with, good luck on these.

 

<edit> I voted on ONE thing,, theres no option for multiple votes

 

Its tutorial,,, have said many times pvp should not start till a specific level (25 maybe?) and a tutorial explaining it with some practice dummys would not only introduce the players to it and the options like protection where they can get out of it but also will reduce the butthurt that happens when a player gets their first rude reminder it is a pvp game.

 

People also need reminded how easy it is to regain levels and especially with things like prestige which could have really encouraged more if it had been put out to everyone more.

Edited by watagashi, 31 March 2014 - 17:13.

[RebornJedi]

I still think 10 stam clears should have option to be bountied BUT if it was a deal breaker I'd say Ok go for it. It'd take ALOTo f effort/team work/coordination to 10 stam rip 5 levels. even 2.5 lvls and that is what we want right? team work and effort?

 

I think halfing what the potential loss is now is more than a fair compromise...It keeps SOME risk...after all...If i MT someone for 10 mil+ they will want to see me lose more than 1 level...and i would hope i did...

i guess if HCS wanted to, they could lower it in the future if 2.5 levels is still not inviting players to PvP in the open world *shrugs* 

 

still think the double XP loss on the BB needs to go, especially if level loss is being reduced (it will still take the same amount of players to take the max amount - 3) ..  i never thought it fair that one player could take 2 levels from a player with 1000 stamina

[watagashi]

i guess if HCS wanted to, they could lower it in the future if 2.5 levels is still not inviting players to PvP in the open world *shrugs* 

 

still think the double XP loss on the BB needs to go, especially if level loss is being reduced (it will still take the same amount of players to take the max amount - 3) ..  i never thought it fair that one player could take 2 levels from a player with 1000 stamina

why not? I always thought it was pretty fair exchange as,, at least in this range,, its about 1000 stam to get a level or 2 back. I thought it was fair since not everyone can get 5 or more hitters but most can find one

[DomCorvis]

If it promotes more PvP and more gold hits without taking all or most of the risk out of it then I am ALL for it. I am all for promoting PvP but it can't be a completely watered down version either.

[RebornJedi]

why not? I always thought it was pretty fair exchange as,, at least in this range,, its about 1000 stam to get a level or 2 back. I thought it was fair since not everyone can get 5 or more hitters but most can find one

 been awhile since i was around 400 but i don't think those figures are correct.. 

[yotwehc]

Although I would like to chime in further, I have been accused of intentionally derailing and have received personal insults so I will refrain from posting any further thoughts... Just want to leave one final note (oops, ended up with 2)... It's great you are all getting excited about new ideas but shutting out any other opinion or views that may represent other player views for a more balanced approach is probably not the best strategy but again, just opinion... Also, I have this very bad habit of responding to any questions or comments other people make about my posts but I guess that's not kosher. I'm out. Have fun.

[DeadParrot]

why not? I always thought it was pretty fair exchange as,, at least in this range,, its about 1000 stam to get a level or 2 back. I thought it was fair since not everyone can get 5 or more hitters but most can find one

Not at my level, friend.

[maf22]

I dont think you should be able to bounty a Deflected hit. Nothing is lost.  This might encourage more people to take that swing and lowering the time after a deflected hit. 

 

Im not a pvp'er but do hit back. I will say that the game was more interesting back when there was more pvp'ing.. Having to keep an eye on your gold at all times and using the auction house to hide it or exchanging it for fsp.  There were level ranges that you would try to get thru as fast as possible before you got hit..

I took a year off from the game and when i came back PVP was gone a lot of the "warriors" were gone. It was a part of the game that needs to come back

With these GLOBAL POTS the lost XP can be earned back at a greater rate now

[bleacher12]

In my opinion the biggest deterrent/reason for most current players not participating willingly in PVP and preferring to stick to leveling, titan hunting, merchanting, etc, is the lack of postive rewards and the over-emphasis of the negative in the form of XP and gold lost.

As sweetlou already pointed out, thievery has been watered down significantly and the XP loss on the board from failed hits in most cases will significantly out weigh any gold stolen in successful hits for most.

 

How about improving the postive incentives for PVP without watering it down by implementing the following?

1 - Disband the ladder and make PVP universal leaving the currently available protection options in place.

2 - Instead of XP simply being lost by the loser in a PVP battle, transfer the XP to the winner. To keep it in balance with leveling via hunting, ensure XP transfer is consistent with what one could gain hunting with the same stam. If the attacker loses, XP gets transfered to the defender.

3 - To prevent farming from idea 2, scale down XP gained from a target similar to how rating gain on the ladder currently is till it gets zeroed out so there's a limit to XP loss.

4 - Leave deflect in but provide an increase in XP gain from a successful defense when not using deflect.

5 - Limit attack range to that used for current ladder.

6 - Allow gold theft from bank on successful hits, again on a diminishing scale similar to XP. But this works both way, that is, if you attack and lose the defender can steal gold from your bank too. Hoarding should not be risk free, banks get robbed in the real world, why not here as well?

7 - Attacks are still bountyable, but XP only accrues to hunters within the player's targets range amd the target loses no more than 2 times the XP and gold stolen on the hit. Deflected attacks not being bountyable.

8 - If you choose to bounty a hit instead of hitting back, you cannot hit the target unless the target hits you again. If you hit the target back, win or lose you cannot bounty afterwards (no double dipping).

 

With these changes PVP becomes a viable and equal alternative to hunting for everyone.

 

For those that will complain about this compelling people to PVP, as enough players complaining about PVP have pointed out, with prestige hits, PVP is already a part of the game you have to play as a defender, now there is added incentive as while you are building stam to hunt a successful defense will add to your XP and gold without you having to spend stam. Defending is a huge part of PVP, being aggressive and attacking is not the only way to play it.

[vastilos]

In my opinion the biggest deterrent/reason for most current players not participating willingly in PVP and preferring to stick to leveling, titan hunting, merchanting, etc, is the lack of postive rewards and the over-emphasis of the negative in the form of XP and gold lost.

As sweetlou already pointed out, thievery has been watered down significantly and the XP loss on the board from failed hits in most cases will significantly out weigh any gold stolen in successful hits for most.

 

How about improving the postive incentives for PVP without watering it down by implementing the following?

1 - Disband the ladder and make PVP universal leaving the currently available protection options in place.

2 - Instead of XP simply being lost by the loser in a PVP battle, transfer the XP to the winner. To keep it in balance with leveling via hunting, ensure XP transfer is consistent with what one could gain hunting with the same stam. If the attacker loses, XP gets transfered to the defender.

3 - To prevent farming from idea 2, scale down XP gained from a target similar to how rating gain on the ladder currently is till it gets zeroed out so there's a limit to XP loss.

4 - Leave deflect in but provide an increase in XP gain from a successful defense when not using deflect.

5 - Limit attack range to that used for current ladder.

6 - Allow gold theft from bank on successful hits, again on a diminishing scale similar to XP. But this works both way, that is, if you attack and lose the defender can steal gold from your bank too. Hoarding should not be risk free, banks get robbed in the real world, why not here as well?

7 - Attacks are still bountyable, but XP only accrues to hunters within the player's targets range amd the target loses no more than 2 times the XP and gold stolen on the hit. Deflected attacks not being bountyable.

8 - If you choose to bounty a hit instead of hitting back, you cannot hit the target unless the target hits you again. If you hit the target back, win or lose you cannot bounty afterwards (no double dipping).

 

With these changes PVP becomes a viable and equal alternative to hunting for everyone.

 

For those that will complain about this compelling people to PVP, as enough players complaining about PVP have pointed out, with prestige hits, PVP is already a part of the game you have to play as a defender, now there is added incentive as while you are building stam to hunt a successful defense will add to your XP and gold without you having to spend stam. Defending is a huge part of PVP, being aggressive and attacking is not the only way to play it.

 

My opinions:

 

1) The game started out that way minus the pvp protection. Why it was changed is beyond me (and it was a much better system that the one that is in place now)

2) Doing this would be too abusable. Like waaaaaaaay too abuseable.

3) same as number 2.

4) Deflect needs to be re-worked big time. People say that it's working how it should, but it really isn't. Also remember people said Find Item 1k was working as intended until RJEM (or whomever it was) proved it wrong with his mythbusters, then there was an admission that it wasn't working as intended (which hoof checked himself).

5) Good call.

6) No stealing from bank. Yes banks do get robbed in real life, but also in real life that money is insured and nothing is taken directly from your bank account.

7) All pvp attacks should be bountyable.

8) I'm pretty sure if someone posts a bounty on someone who hit them for gold, the're not gonna swing back at them.

[vastilos]

One thing that does get mentioned a lot is the Risk vs. Reward. If you hit someone with a 100 stamina hit, I believe they lose 10% of a level (exp wise), Master Thief never works (not that I've ever seen in 6 years) and the best you'll get from a 100 stamina gold hit is about 10% of that person's gold... and yet we should have the risk of losing 5 levels?

[bleacher12]

My opinions:

 

 

2) Doing this would be too abusable. Like waaaaaaaay too abuseable.

3) same as number 2.

I have outlined how not to have it abused by using the diminishing scale from the ladder, could you similarly provide an actual abuse? Actually, since you think it would be 'waaaaaaaay' abused, please provide more than one.

Generalizations while often good are not really helpful when trying to work on constructive developments, loopholes you identify would be great to reowrk the idea, especially since you are certain they are very easy.

Edited by bleacher12, 02 April 2014 - 19:00.

[vastilos]

I have outlined how not to have it abused by using the diminishing scale from the ladder, could you similarly provide an actual abuse? Actually, since you think it would be 'waaaaaaaay' abused, please provide more than one.

Generalizations while often good are not really helpful when trying to work on constructive developments, loopholes you identify would be great to reowrk the idea, especially since you are certain they are very easy.

 

I find someone who is low level who wants to earn some extra exp. I charge them a little bit of fsp, gold or a few potions for me to get myself on the bounty board. When I'm on the bounty board I block all buffs and remove all gear. Now the player I have that agreement with gets to hit me and earn exp until he clears me. I repeat until I feel I've made enough fsp, gold and/or potions. I could also do this with friends and/or guild members to help them reach EoC faster. I'm pretty sure you could think what I'm thinking at this point.

Edited by vastilos, 02 April 2014 - 19:11.

[bleacher12]

I find someone who is low level who wants to earn some extra exp. I charge them a little bit of fsp, gold or a few potions for me to get myself on the bounty board. When I'm on the bounty board I block all buffs and remove all gear. Now the player I have that agreement with gets to hit me and earn exp until he clears me. I repeat until I feel I've made enough fsp, gold and/or potions. I could also do this with friends and/or guild members to help them reach EoC faster. I'm pretty sure you could think what I'm thinking at this point.

Please read what I posted on bounty hits, XP transfer only works on people in your range not lower or EOCers. Also, looks like you haven't played the ladder so you are failing to understand the diminishing scale and why this would never work, its cheat proof from that perspective. Please read up on how the rating system for the ladder works to understand this.

With every consecutive win the hunter will gain less and less XP until it gets zeroed a few hits in. The only way for him to gain constant XP would be to keep losing to someone else at the same time the target is winning against others so his rating keeps increasing beyond the hunter's!

Edited by bleacher12, 02 April 2014 - 20:58.

[vastilos]

Please read what I posted on bounty hits, XP transfer only works on people in your range not lower or EOCers. Also, looks like you haven't played the ladder so you are failing to understand the diminishing scale and why this would never work, its cheat proof from that perspective. Please read up on how the rating system for the ladder works to understand this.

With every consecutive win the hunter will gain less and less XP until it gets zeroed a few hits in. The only way for him to gain constant XP would be to keep losing to someone else at the same time!

 

Ok. I have a friend in my level range who only likes to level. Now I hit another one of my friends. I tell friend number two to post me, and I'll have friend number one pay me for that extra exp they are going to receive by clearing me. Oh and since I don't care about losing levels or exp, I keep repeating the process and earning fsp/gold/whatever. And assuming I have never played the ladder is nothing more than an ignorant assumption on your end. I have played the ladder for quite a bit, but I stopped playing when I could get first place with one hit. You can reduce/diminish what ever your imagination wants, but since someone will be able to get exp from all hits, the system will be abuseable and people will be able to profit from it.

Nothing is cheat proof, ever.

Edited by vastilos, 02 April 2014 - 19:48.