108 replies to this topic

[gomezkilla]

I highly doubt many players will want to buy epics with 10 or 25 durability.
The moment that epics become crystalline a few PvPers will find it their hobby to reduce the durability to 0. And that can easily be done with a few PvP hits over a few days.
And then the crystalline epic is worthless.

The crystalline epic in the example above takes a pair of Skally boots and a pair of Oggy gloves. At the current AH prices that will be worth around 600 FSP. And the idea is that these new epics will increase the price of old epics...

If these epics are used for stam gain then you'll have to wear them a lot and PvP is likely to happen.
For 600 FSP you can buy 15k stamina. So it will have to be an insanely high stam gain to make these epics worthwhile.

If these epics are mainly used for the PvP Arena then people will put them on and off in mere seconds and PvP is not very likely.
But there aren't many players who will buy epics solely for PvP Arena use, so it will hardly raise demand (and thus prices) on the old epics. :roll:

Good point, seems like the cost - risk isn't worth pursuing unless the gain is massive.

You're right. The gain would have to be exceptional to be worth the risk. And that's exactly how I would envision it -- incredible stats, incredible risk. The plus-10 gain stats were just an idea; if people think it isn't enough (and it might not be) what WOULD be worth it?

Alternatively, instead of upping the gain stats on the individual items, it could also work to make the items as part of a set -- again, like the old Gurgiss items. Each individual piece gives gain (plus-10 continues to be my baseline proposal, but that's open to discussion), plus the set bonus would give even more gain bonus.

The whole point of my idea is the notion of getting really incredible gain stats, but running a huge risk all the while, which I think would make things more interesting, and require a real sense of trade-off when selecting epics -- are the awesome stats worth all of the hassle and the expense of replacing them. At it's best, it would work as a potential gold sink, and create demand for ... nearly everything, honestly, since the original proposal of this thread was to utilize old epics in recipes to create new ones. Demand for Titan epics, RP epics, PvP Ladder rewards, Arena rewards, things from the Caves -- nearly everything would be in play. And if the items were popular, AND got broken fairly regularly (given the low durability), this demand would be constant, and hopefully spur on action in all facets of the game.

I see what you are saying with this, giving everything something to work for, but its still a cost to risk problem. How overpowered will the Epic have to be to make it worth the cost and risk and where do we draw the line when its just too powerful?

[gomezkilla]

Bump

[Maury Bund]

We need a new item. There is currently a:
Rune of Phale
Boots of Zephale
Armor of Phale
Ring of Ohphale
Ring of Phalema

but where is our Epic Phale?

[gomezkilla]

We need a new item. There is currently a:
Rune of Phale
Boots of Zephale
Armor of Phale
Ring of Ohphale
Ring of Phalema

but where is our Epic Phale?

Instead of just flat out creating a new item, let's combine some of the Epics for this "Phale" item. What do you think would be a good combination for it?

[DragonLord]

We need a new item. There is currently a:
Rune of Phale
Boots of Zephale
Armor of Phale
Ring of Ohphale
Ring of Phalema

but where is our Epic Phale?

Instead of just flat out creating a new item, let's combine some of the Epics for this "Phale" item. What do you think would be a good combination for it?

you STILL flogging that "let's combine old epics to make new epics" (to drive the prices up again) chestnut ?

New epics could be introduced, but, if any manufacturer brings out a new item, do you need the old one to get it ? Nope. I know it's not the real world in here, obviously, but I still think this idea is driven solely by profit ..

[gomezkilla]

you STILL flogging that "let's combine old epics to make new epics" (to drive the prices up again) chestnut ?

New epics could be introduced, but, if any manufacturer brings out a new item, do you need the old one to get it ? Nope. I know it's not the real world in here, obviously, but I still think this idea is driven solely by profit ..

How many times do you have to attempt to throw down my idea? This is to bring in some new items while simultaneously getting rid of some old items.

I have yet to mention anything about costs, yet you keep bringing it up! Yes, the causal effect does have a price increase to it, but in the end it circulates more items around. Think about the WHOLE outcome, not just the price increase!!

[DragonLord]

you STILL flogging that "let's combine old epics to make new epics" (to drive the prices up again) chestnut ?

New epics could be introduced, but, if any manufacturer brings out a new item, do you need the old one to get it ? Nope. I know it's not the real world in here, obviously, but I still think this idea is driven solely by profit ..

How many times do you have to attempt to throw down my idea? This is to bring in some new items while simultaneously getting rid of some old items.

I have yet to mention anything about costs, yet you keep bringing it up! Yes, the causal effect does have a price increase to it, but in the end it circulates more items around. Think about the WHOLE outcome, not just the price increase!!

The whole outcome ?

OK. Let's analyse that ..

1. Higher powered epics (that will be sold for PHENOMENAL prices)
2. Removal of lower level epics to create new epics (less supply of them = higher prices)

How does it circulate more items around ? - it reduces the amount of items. (2 "old" epics to make 1 "new" epic equals, in my book, 1 less epic in the game - or maybe even 2, depending on invention percentages)

So, yes, I think it's about reducing, overall, the number of epics in-game and thus, by the resulting "shortage" (compared to now), ensuring prices go up.

I'm more than happy with the price of epics coming down - it means that not only the richest players in-game (either via donating or earning the fsp) can afford them.

[gomezkilla]

OK. Let's analyse that ..

1. Higher powered epics (that will be sold for PHENOMENAL prices)
2. Removal of lower level epics to create new epics (less supply of them = higher prices)

How does it circulate more items around ? - it reduces the amount of items. (2 "old" epics to make 1 "new" epic equals, in my book, 1 less epic in the game - or maybe even 2, depending on invention percentages)

So, yes, I think it's about reducing, overall, the number of epics in-game and thus, by the resulting "shortage" (compared to now), ensuring prices go up.

I'm more than happy with the price of epics coming down - it means that not only the richest players in-game (either via donating or earning the fsp) can afford them.

Another implication on your part... "phenomenal" never was mentioned. I only said a little boost was to be given on the combination of Epics. Never said anything phenomenal...

Yes, this is about reducing Epics in the game because frankly, there are too many.

But AGAIN the pricing comment. I do hope you realize that the pricing of ALL Epics comes from the player SELLING it. It doesn't get sold at the price its listed until someone BUYS it and thinks its worth that much. For all I care, the Epics could be 100 FSP each, but guess what? The owner of the Epics think that they are worth much more than that so the prices are higher than that.

[uhsword]

you STILL flogging that "let's combine old epics to make new epics" (to drive the prices up again) chestnut ?

New epics could be introduced, but, if any manufacturer brings out a new item, do you need the old one to get it ? Nope. I know it's not the real world in here, obviously, but I still think this idea is driven solely by profit ..

How many times do you have to attempt to throw down my idea? This is to bring in some new items while simultaneously getting rid of some old items.

I have yet to mention anything about costs, yet you keep bringing it up! Yes, the causal effect does have a price increase to it, but in the end it circulates more items around. Think about the WHOLE outcome, not just the price increase!!

The whole outcome ?

OK. Let's analyse that ..

1. Higher powered epics (that will be sold for PHENOMENAL prices)
2. Removal of lower level epics to create new epics (less supply of them = higher prices)

How does it circulate more items around ? - it reduces the amount of items. (2 "old" epics to make 1 "new" epic equals, in my book, 1 less epic in the game - or maybe even 2, depending on invention percentages)

So, yes, I think it's about reducing, overall, the number of epics in-game and thus, by the resulting "shortage" (compared to now), ensuring prices go up.

I'm more than happy with the price of epics coming down - it means that not only the richest players in-game (either via donating or earning the fsp) can afford them.

+1 That's also where powder kegs have been blossoming somewhat as far as epics are concerned and there have been few attempts (just like MP) to make the sought or unsought epics more costly (and I'm not including the 'secretive' deals made by allies in which they bid higher than the actual range it's currently in) but in the process went down eventually cause it was too unreasonable..

[DragonLord]

OK. Let's analyse that ..

1. Higher powered epics (that will be sold for PHENOMENAL prices)
2. Removal of lower level epics to create new epics (less supply of them = higher prices)

How does it circulate more items around ? - it reduces the amount of items. (2 "old" epics to make 1 "new" epic equals, in my book, 1 less epic in the game - or maybe even 2, depending on invention percentages)

So, yes, I think it's about reducing, overall, the number of epics in-game and thus, by the resulting "shortage" (compared to now), ensuring prices go up.

I'm more than happy with the price of epics coming down - it means that not only the richest players in-game (either via donating or earning the fsp) can afford them.

Another implication on your part... "phenomenal" never was mentioned. I only said a little boost was to be given on the combination of Epics. Never said anything phenomenal...

Yes, this is about reducing Epics in the game because frankly, there are too many.

But AGAIN the pricing comment. I do hope you realize that the pricing of ALL Epics comes from the player SELLING it. It doesn't get sold at the price its listed until someone BUYS it and thinks its worth that much. For all I care, the Epics could be 100 FSP each, but guess what? The owner of the Epics think that they are worth much more than that so the prices are higher than that.

Phenomenal prices is a given - don't be naive and think it's not. Look at the pricing structure of new titan items when they come out (especially if they have gains higher than anything else in the game at that time).

Prices are customer driven, not vendor driven. You can list an item for 3000 fsp for months, but if no-one is prepared to pay more than, say, 2000, you'll never sell it.

Yes, I'll continue to bring up the pricing aspect of this - because you seem to continually want to "gloss over" that little bit of the deal.

If the cows want new epics in the game, let them introduce them - but keep the existing ones so that they can get more use, rather than sitting in merchants backpacks.

[gomezkilla]

If the cows want new epics in the game, let them introduce them - but keep the existing ones so that they can get more use, rather than sitting in merchants backpacks.

Contradicting yourself there. Keep existing ones in use yet they are not in use.... They sit around in everyone's backpack, not just merchants.

[gomezkilla]

And yes I do see what you are getting at Pardoux, the price is a going to go up no matter what happens if the Epics get used up. Its just they are SO MANY of them and there are MORE that keep coming in that it just seems logical to get rid of some of them.

I do not know the amount of active players to give a ratio of the Epics to player, but I'm pretty sure its close to 1:1, just a guess.

[DragonLord]

If the cows want new epics in the game, let them introduce them - but keep the existing ones so that they can get more use, rather than sitting in merchants backpacks.

Contradicting yourself there. Keep existing ones in use yet they are not in use.... They sit around in everyone's backpack, not just merchants.

I see very little contradiction there - the only reason merchants are holding them in their backpacks is to try and create a perceived "shortage" which means they can charge more for them. If merchants lowered their prices / expectations a little, I'm sure they'd sell them and people would use them.

There is already collusion over epic-selling - some guilds list an epic for 1fsp and, when it fails to reach the price "required", get another guild mate to buy it and thus make the sale null and void. This should have been made against the rules - if you chose to sell an item this way, then take the risk and sell it ...

Having said all that, we're getting off-topic.

You want new epics in the game that are made from existing epics (for whatever reason - see, I didn't mention the "P" word)

I don't mind new epics in the game - but NEW ones, not re-invented ones from existing ones.

That's the core of our "disagreement" ....

[DragonLord]

And yes I do see what you are getting at Pardoux, the price is a going to go up no matter what happens if the Epics get used up. Its just they are SO MANY of them and there are MORE that keep coming in that it just seems logical to get rid of some of them.

I do not know the amount of active players to give a ratio of the Epics to player, but I'm pretty sure its close to 1:1, just a guess.

1:1 ? LMAO - nowhere near I'd bet. There's an AWFUL lot of epics "tied-up" with inactive and terminated players.

[gomezkilla]

And yes I do see what you are getting at Pardoux, the price is a going to go up no matter what happens if the Epics get used up. Its just they are SO MANY of them and there are MORE that keep coming in that it just seems logical to get rid of some of them.

I do not know the amount of active players to give a ratio of the Epics to player, but I'm pretty sure its close to 1:1, just a guess.

1:1 ? LMAO - nowhere near I'd bet. There's an AWFUL lot of epics "tied-up" with inactive and terminated players.

Do I need to rephrase that statement for you so that you can understand it? There I edited what I said to be more clear for you.

[uhsword]

And yes I do see what you are getting at Pardoux, the price is a going to go up no matter what happens if the Epics get used up. Its just they are SO MANY of them and there are MORE that keep coming in that it just seems logical to get rid of some of them.

I do not know the amount of active players to give a ratio of the Epics to player, but I'm pretty sure its close to 1:1, just a guess.

1:1 ? LMAO - nowhere near I'd bet. There's an AWFUL lot of epics "tied-up" with inactive and terminated players.

Think he was only talking about the epics in BP of players that are still equipped or not equipped with it but still in his/her possession of recent days or weeks..

Edit: gomez you type too f'n fast

[DragonLord]

And yes I do see what you are getting at Pardoux, the price is a going to go up no matter what happens if the Epics get used up. Its just they are SO MANY of them and there are MORE that keep coming in that it just seems logical to get rid of some of them.

I do not know the amount of active players to give a ratio of the Epics to player, but I'm pretty sure its close to 1:1, just a guess.

1:1 ? LMAO - nowhere near I'd bet. There's an AWFUL lot of epics "tied-up" with inactive and terminated players.

Do I need to rephrase that statement for you so that you can understand it? There I edited what I said to be more clear for you.

Thanks for the elaboration there - you also said "I'm pretty sure it's 1:1"

[gomezkilla]

Thanks for the elaboration there - you also said "I'm pretty sure it's 1:1"

:shock: Looks like I contradicted myself then.

[Tazarian]

I see this is still a hot topic and, do like the idea of using already epics in the game for something else. Do I own many epics myself? No, just Frost Bitten Steps (with nearly 1 epic per guild member who is active, most high level players have 2 epics for stam gain in our guild).

Perhaps we are going about this in the wrong manner. We've already had epics that require recipes to change them (flail to a mace, armor to boots). So, maybe we could do the same with a bit more to it.

Titan item + RP item (for a recipe) = new item

The new item would be different (perhaps gloves to boots/amulet to ring). The improved stats would be better however, you would still have a chance of failing in inventing the new item.

This would fire up GVGing for RP (waking up part of the game) and, liquidate some of the items in the game.

As always, prices will go up on the new items (even RP items will climb threw the roof I'll bet). However, I am saying this for a slect few items, not all epic items from titan drops (to keep some not as costly so Joe Blow can still afford them).

With that said, we could even have a recipe set to be made from epics (this is just an idea).

Krimson Epic set (Recipe of Improved KKH/ Recipe of Krimson Gloves).

Recipe #1:

KKH + B. Crystal Skull (stays at L100, no stat changes)

Recipe #2:

O. Fiery grasp + B. crystal Skull (stays at L100, no stat changes).

Set bonus: +100 attack/damage +2 Xp gain/hour, +2 stam gain/hour, +200 max stam

Set bonus could be upped but, this would also allow KE to work (and other buffs) since this would be a new epic set.

Only an idea and, it may never come to pass. Remember, we are still waiting on them to help us rid ourselves of the excess crystalline items from the spines in the game.

[DragonLord]

With that said, we could even have a recipe set to be made from epics (this is just an idea).

Krimson Epic set (Recipe of Improved KKH/ Recipe of Krimson Gloves).

Recipe #1:

KKH + B. Crystal Skull (stays at L100, no stat changes)

Recipe #2:

O. Fiery grasp + B. crystal Skull (stays at L100, no stat changes).

Set bonus: +100 attack/damage +2 Xp gain/hour, +2 stam gain/hour, +200 max stam

Set bonus could be upped but, this would also allow KE to work (and other buffs) since this would be a new epic set.

Cows have, thankfully, stated many times that there won't be epic sets ..