64 replies to this topic

[BraveKath]

PvP: A Different Approach 

 

*sigh* Yes, yet another thread on PvP -- must be the season. Bear with me, please, but having read so many and all the time grappelling with how can it ever be a win-win this came to me tonight.  If this idea isn't liked by levelers and PvPers, so be it, as it needs to be seen as a win-win.  Somehow I don't imagine it's a novel idea.

 

What is needed is for both sides to have something to gain from PvP – a Win-Win. I hope these ideas could be viewed as a positive, and combined with other valuable ideas bouncing around in the forums and melded into something truly positive for us all.

Who am I to make this proposal? No one special, just another player here, who has played all the roles, not the best, not the worst, so just a 'Jack of All Trades, Master of None'.  Here it goes ....

 

IDEAS - Good/Bad/Ugly - you can be the judge, be gentle - just ideas

1. What if PvP does NOT take xp and gold?

 

2. What if Prestige or perhaps it should be a different term is not only able to be used in increments (as most of us would like), but is also in increments as a commodity that can be sold in a Prestige Market (explained later).

 

3. What if there is a sort of VL of Prestige and your PvP rating on the 'Top Rated' is based on that? Thus if you have 400 Prestige and sell off 2 tokens (say 50 = a Prestige token) and now have 300 Prestige that you could apply and use (as we do now), you will still have your Total Prestige that would reflect all that you have acquired and lost through PvP and would not reflect Prestige that you've sold off. So your game rating as PvP would not be damaged by you selling off Prestige, only by loosing in PvP or just slipping in the ranks.

 

4. So the Prestige Top Rated list would be game wide, regardless of level (thus a level 1 could be on top of a Level 200) and constantly reset.  So (shudder) much like the current PvP Ladder, but no opt in/out - game wide and each month is a new battle to the top?  I hope, hope that the mechanics of the game would keep this list alive and not a total manipulation, as I think there's enough true PvPers with a competitive spirit to keep it lively and perhaps this would be a great shot in the arm.

 

What this would accomplish:

5.  Now PvPers are gaining something of monetary value (Prestige) that they can turn into FSP to buy gear and continue their game play and this takes the place of gold, while retaining their standing in the ranks of PvPers. They'd also have the Total Prestige #'s to denote their skill or activity and can be ranked accordingly.

 

6. For the Game Rankings of top PvP'er, I would recommend that it is updated regularly and that it's is reset so that it doesn't include inactives.  The New Weekly (or whatever time period) - could be random, or even daily.

 

7. The standards of PvP will be raised. As a person can “farm” Prestige just as one does now off of anyone, but just as now the greatest prestige comes from the player with the largest Prestige.  But with this change and because there's not just the Prestige Usage advantage, but now a monetary advantage there's greater motivation for PvPers to pick tougher targets, and thus with a greater challenge, more intellectual stimulation.  

 

8.  Levelers will still take damage to gear, but they will keep their xp and gold and also now not only have the chance to Bounty that player* / return the hit , but ALSO buy Prestige from that PvPer from a Prestige Market (Yes, shades of Hannibal Lecter), but this is where the WIN-WIN comes in -- now there's an advantage to Levelers that they can see and each is helping the other enjoy the game as well as advance in the game.

*** PRESTIGE MARKET: suggest that it's blind, like the FSP market and perhaps operates on the same format, thus the value of Prestige will wax and wane with market demands.  Though it could also just be a set value.

 

Affect on Other Areas:

 

9. Bounty Board - it wouldn't be a issue of xp loss, but rather Prestige loss and perhaps on the BB a player could go into the negative? I'm not sure about that. Could the BB be the one place you could go into the negative on Prestige? I don't think the “damage” should be morale breaking, but still found to serve it's purpose, so perhaps a % of a player's total Prestige, which is essentially exactly what is done now as it's a % of the player's total xp.

10 . Now what do we do with de-leveling parties not being able to de-level someone out of a hitting range? …. Well, the purpose of that is to stop the hits either through demoralization or through just putting them below the PvP range to hit. So what if instead of de-leveling a player, what if after posting someone – let's say 10 or 20 times – now the target is off-limits for a period of time? Now not sure how tricky or impossible that would be to program. But – if someone isn't loosing xp and gold, is it as big of a deal to de-level the other player? Yeah, you may have gear repair costs, but that's about it and there's been talk everywhere of how hard it is on low-level/newbs and the cost of gear repair.

11.  Solution to Noob gear repairs – Propose that that a player 30 days old (or 60 or 90 – pick a duration or a level) has the option to buy for 1 gold on the loyalty page a potion that repairs all gear. Noobs would need to be warned that crystal wont' be repaired though.


Guild Wars:

 

Since Prestige would essentially equal FSP/Gold, I think Guild Wars would still be effective and could continue to operate as they have.

 

  In conclusion, with this revised system. Devoted PvEers would want to buy Prestige and PvPers would be selling to enable their playing style, and thus we have a cycle of life for both parties, and what I think would be a win-win.

This was written with a love of the game, which is really the people in it, and a sincere desire to foster the enjoyment of the game by everyone … trying for the Win-Win. Not sure this is it, but it's an idea and tossing it out there.

 

Note: As I read back through this now, see problems and tempted to not post it, but going to toss it out anyway as maybe there's a kernel of something that can be used.

 

Edited by BraveKath, 14 April 2014 - 10:17.

[yotwehc]

PvP: A Different Approach 

 

 

What is needed is for both sides to have something to gain from PvP – a Win-Win. I hope these ideas could be viewed as a positive, and combined with other valuable ideas bouncing around in the forums and melded into something truly positive for us all.
 

I"m afraid this is a horrible idea... If you did this, I WOULD pvp... and that would be bad.

Edited by yotwehc, 14 April 2014 - 06:47.

[BraveKath]

LMBO Yotwehc!  

Hey, I said "be gentle"!  Well, chewy, if you did, you'd still be going up against a lot of folks with a lot of experience with PvP gear and a greater understanding of the affect of buffs, potions and stuctures etc than what most die-hard PvEers are used to, so it wouldn't be an easy win for you, so you'd have competition.

So - maybe this isn't bad that you would want to PvP, as most PvPers have consistently expressed a desire throughout the forums for more people PvP'ing as that translates to more people on the BB and just to more activity in general.

But then again -- maybe this just proves it's a bad idea.  I don't know, frankly

 

P.S. "If you did this" -- appreciate the vote of confidence in the scope of my abilities.

Edited by BraveKath, 14 April 2014 - 06:33.

[BraveKath]

POLITE REQUEST -- for all responses:

* when quoting someone else that has a long post, like mine, just edit it down or refer to it to keep things a bit shorter - (I typically edit out the mid-section and enter ....)

* If you dislike the idea, however, it gets you brain-storming to something related to it -- some other win-win, let's hear it.

Ultimately, we all want the same thing, to play and enjoy the game.

Edited by BraveKath, 14 April 2014 - 06:59.

[Pardoux]

I think you could have stumbled upon something here Kath - a viable solution, at least from a levellers perspective.

 

I do wonder how the pvp community (the good and the bad) will react to their taps/hits taking NO gold and NO xp tho - I suspect they may well not like it, but I'm willing to be corrected.

I, for one, like it ..

[bloody18]

I appreciate Bravekaths passion for pvp ..and wanting it to be a more active part of the game   I dont think what I am about to say  is what you are aiming for Kath, correct me if I am wrong There is room for another  rewards system added to the game for " outsidethe ladder  pvp " OR if nothing else,  a compromise. 2 systems. One with more risk and reward than the other. Obviously people hate "RISK"  I believe this would encourage many many more to a PVP aspect to the game. Just as people hate "RISKING" gold in arena .. I suggested a practice type arena with low risk, low reward. Someone suggested a literal PVP arena in the past I believe. Even broke down a whole new system to the game ..something like your suggestion reminds me of that idea.

[rowbeth]

Interesting idea, and great to see someone really trying for the win-win.

 

From my perspective, one of the things that I have always disliked about PVP in this game is that one person's fun is gained by setting back another person's independent goals. Doing away with Xp loss does remove my major objection.

 

Personally, I don't mind too much about the gold loss. There is much that I can do to minimise that, so I retain at least a sense of control over my own destiny. I can no longer speak for the lower levels, though. When I was at the lower levels there was an active gold market in the AH, and I could hide my gold there until I had enough to buy FSP --- AND I could expect to make a profit in the process; but I suspect that gold market no longer exists. So, since retaining players at lower levels is vital, it may be the that removal of gold loss is just as important.

 

The idea of a prestige market is an interesting one, as a way of providing profit for PVP. Whether it appeals to PVPers is not for me to say, but I could see levelers wanting to buy prestige. Provided it was sustainable (i.e. could be paid for from proceeds of a hunt) I thought it worth spending FSP on buffs/potions that gave 1-2% more Xp from a hunt, so prestige would certainly  have entered my thinking.

 

Another idea to throw into this mix (no doubt suggested before) would be to add the idea PVP levels. After a certain amount of PVP success (measured by prestige gain within your system - or some other means) you gain PVP levels, and with that gain access to PVP-specific skills. Perhaps the offensive PVP buffs could be tied to these levels rather than to Xp-based levels. Defensive skills should remain available to the Xp-based levels, though maybe could be gained quicker from the PVP-levels. (Admittedly, mapping current abilities onto such a new structure in a sufficiently palatable way might prove impossible.) Again, if there were no Xp loss from PVP, then I for one would remove my objections to incentivising PVP in these sort of ways.

Edited by rowbeth, 14 April 2014 - 07:55.

[BraveKath]

Hey Bloody --

 

This isn't intended to replace the current ladder (that's a whole other problem), it's just really straight PvP - we're all in and there would be no PvP Protection applicable.  I'm all for compromise .. I'm not sure what you said that you thought wasn't what I'm aiming for though.
 

Utimately what I'm aiming for is:

1) more PvP/BH activity with motivation for it

 

2) a different PvP currency as gold and xp are 2 hot button items and PvPers don't really care about xp other than to say "Hey I dropped this or that player", but the gold funds their game play just as hunting funds a leveler's play, and our current parasitical relationship leaves the host dissatisfied and vulnerable to dying. If Prestige = gold, then problem solved - well at least that's my theory 

 

3) just more enjoyment for us all with the risk being Prestige 

4) Recognition of the toughest PvPers in the game, as I realize we don't have that.  We have Top Bounty Hunters.  Top Player and then the Monthly lists, and many others, but why not an alive (no deadweights)  Top Prestige List and if it's reset all the time it will keep things lively and it would be irregardless of player's game level, thus a level 25 and 1900 could be next to each other on the list)

The arena segregate this concept and not sure that does it for me, but I'm open to what will work for the game as a whole.  I don't know -- chewing on that ... hmmm

[BraveKath]

Thanks Pardoux -- appreciate you weighing in on this  ....

 

Obviously hoping Prestige having monetary value being a good trade-off, but as my style of PvP hasn't typically been about gold hits I certainly can't speak for many staunch gold-hit PvPers.

[BraveKath]

Interesting idea, and great to see someone really trying for the win-win.

...

 

Another idea to throw into this mix (no doubt suggested before) would be to add the idea PVP levels. After a certain amount of PVP success (measured by prestige gain within your system - or some other means) you gain PVP levels, and with that gain access to PVP-specific skills. Perhaps the offensive PVP buffs could be tied to these levels rather than to Xp-based levels. Defensive skills should remain available to the Xp-based levels, though maybe could be gained quicker from the PVP-levels. (Admittedly, mapping current abilities onto such a new structure in a sufficiently palatable way might prove impossible.) Again, if there were no Xp loss from PVP, then I for one would remove my objections to incentivising PVP in these sort of ways.

 

Good idea.  Another game I play that is much heavier PvP is structured that way.  You don't gain xp/gold, but you gain points towards added skills that make you a leaner, meaner PvP machine and everyone who has ever played it says it is hands-down still the best PvP game even though it's the oldest.

 

Gold Loss: my thoughts on that are two fold -- there are the low levels for whom gold loss can be rough and game derailment when they're "living" hunt to hunt.  In addition, there's also the Scavengers who are hampered when they're in the caves and basically doing it with their shorts down and frequently hit.

I digress -- Great idea Row and appreciate your input!  

BUT -- if a compromise of no xp, but yes gold loss and Prestige gain that can be applied to PvP specific skills -- that's cool!  It's whatever could be perceived as a Win-Win.

Edited by BraveKath, 14 April 2014 - 08:18.

[MSCruz]

Kath, what happens if a player remove all gears when offline to avoid the cost of repair?

 

With this model the BB is practically dead, am I wrong?

 

I think your idea could work, but for many the PvP is still undesirable (I know it is a part of the game).

[rowbeth]

In addition, there's also the Scavengers who are hampered when they're in the caves and basically doing it with their shorts down and frequently hit.

 

Scavengers - yes. And also farmers/merchants end up holding gold. I wasn't thinking of them either when I gave my personal response earlier.

[Brice]

Great post Kath...I'm an on and off PvPer...but something like this might bring my evil side out a little bit more...***smiles with an evil grin**

Edited by Brice, 14 April 2014 - 19:12.

[leefylee]

no xp loss on bounty hits ??  booooooo thats what i say to that

[Bleltch]

 

1. What if PvP does NOT take xp and gold?

 

 

 

That was the whole idea of pvp from the git-go.  "steal gold and take experience to advance your character" is how i remember it used to be billed years ago. Those 2 things are what made pvp simple and fun. Then they started adding on all the extras to make the levelers happy. (along with their pockets) Pvp needs to be encouraged, not nerfed even more. 

[DomCorvis]

That was the whole idea of pvp from the git-go.  "steal gold and take experience to advance your character" is how i remember it used to be billed years ago. Those 2 things are what made pvp simple and fun. Then they started adding on all the extras to make the levelers happy. (along with their pockets) Pvp needs to be encouraged, not nerfed even more. 

+1

[Pardoux]

That was the whole idea of pvp from the git-go.  "steal gold and take experience to advance your character" is how i remember it used to be billed years ago. Those 2 things are what made pvp simple and fun. Then they started adding on all the extras to make the levelers happy. (along with their pockets) Pvp needs to be encouraged, not nerfed even more. 

 

How does changing PvP, but making it more accessible to those who, currently, want no part of it, nerf it even more ?

 

If this idea flies, then it will encourage more people to try PvP ... ok, it may discourage some existing ones too, but if the balance is a net gain of players partaking, then its worked, surely ?

[BraveKath]

That was the whole idea of pvp from the git-go.  "steal gold and take experience to advance your character" is how i remember it used to be billed years ago. Those 2 things are what made pvp simple and fun. Then they started adding on all the extras to make the levelers happy. (along with their pockets) Pvp needs to be encouraged, not nerfed even more. 

 

First of all Bleitch, thanks for commenting ...

The theory you are putting forth is a parasitical one where you eventually kill off the host, and in the process the parasite will die too because there are no hosts left.  I seriously doubt that was the intent of the game, but HCS put forth a game and then have made adjustments over the years in the interest of refining their initial concept.

 

My assumption has always been, and perhaps incorrectly, that it was meant to be a game where we could both exist together and create an added dimension and challenge to the game.  This idea retains the concept of Risk -- but now the Risk is Prestige that could be turned into FSP or as someone else suggested specialized skills - I would suggest both PvP and PvE skills to encourage everyone wanting to earn those Prestige points then to improve their preferred play style.

Given our dwindling numbers and activity on the BB etc may prove the point that we have a parasitical relationship now that is going in its natural evolutionary direction towards mutual death.  I agree that PvP was intended to flourish right along side PvE, but we all agree the #'s are not what they were and that there are challenges to us all due to fewer targets for PvP/GvG, fewer active members to form groups for relic takes, fewer players to keep the arena vital, fewer players to buy gear, etc, etc. and that = limited fun.

 
Boredom is a factor and just re-working the Old Ways has never been the way to spark life into any game or business, one has to think outside the box and re-invent within the framework of the game or organization.

 

PvP - "simple and fun" ... I realize that when I PvP I am a different PvPer, as I don't find "simple" fun, but so what you're saying is that for you - hitting someone who isn't a challenge is what you want?  I suppose I can see that occasionally, but you're such a great PvPer, I seriously can't imagine you don't like a challenge?

I've seen a lot of posts throughout of NOT wanting to dumb-down the game/ "no win button" and what I'm proposing could make it more challenging by encouraging people to try harder, potentially, to not be an easy target and to also be an aggressor, so the game's simplicity could be challenged as the PvPers ranks could grow from greater competition.  I have full confidence in the old guard PvPers to hold their own, to teach and stay ahead of the curve of others who may enter their ranks, but I still think it would be much more interesting - potentially.

There's a lot of talk of people getting better at hiding their gold, and that is suppose to be a factor in decreased PvP activity. People still scavenge with lots of gold on hand, and they still level and due to decreased numbers gold doesn't get purchased from the FSP market that quickly, so why isn't there still more active PvP? Periodically I look at my PvP range using Find Player and I expand it gradually to 100+/- and there's a small # who have been active in recent hours when I do that and that's not good for PvP.  So a new idea that reinvents the game is needed to attract back old players and recruit and keep new players.

Many would like to see more PvP and Bounty Board activity, and to do that we need to think outside the box.  Widening attack bands and upping gold thievery may spike play temporarily, but if it drives off targets then in the end the PvP looses. 

If you now also have more typical PvE'ers wanting to explore PvP, your targets may get tougher to beat and thus increase the challenge and satisfaction in a hit well done.  Let's face it, right now there's very little talk of hitting for Prestige amongst PvPer's, it gold and xp, because Prestige has no value, but if that changed now your best targets are more interesting because they may be more challenging.
 

Edited by BraveKath, 14 April 2014 - 23:39.

[BraveKath]

More thoughts related to this Topic:

 

1) It might be good to have a time expiration on PURCHASED Prestige, thus it has to be used within 24-48 hours and when used, it can be stolen.

 

2) There's been a lot of discussions regarding a PvP event.  Testing out this model in this type of event might be good.  

For a PvP Event -  it would be ideal for HCS to give advance notice, much like they do with the XP Events, so that those that are rusty with PvP or clueless have a few days to start thinking about it.

[BraveKath]

no xp loss on bounty hits ??  booooooo thats what i say to that

 

Well, I'm not adverse to having Prestige and XP both lost on the BB, but I'm not sure that will increase numbers of people PvP'ing, which I think would be good for the game's energy.  It would, however, address the matter of retaining the old style of deleveling to remove someone from the PvP range.  So in the long run not sure this would be the true spike in activity I would hope for, but this is all about just bouncing around ideas.

Thanks for your reply leefylee