18 replies to this topic

[Savanc]

I am assuming that stats on high level creatures and items are higher than those on low level creatures, that it takes more XP each level to get to the next level, and that higher level creatures give more XP and gold. I was wondering how this level system will actually work.

It mainly evolves around this question: "Will the increases per level on creatures' stats and XP, players' required XP and items' stats be based on a linear function, power function or an exponential function?"


Many games used formulas that cause big differences between levels in the lower levels and little differences between levels in the higher levels.
I hope you guys use formulas that create fairly equal differences between levels all around.


Formula of increase per level
There will probably be an increase each level in the stats of the creatures and items, the XP and gold that creatures give and the XP that it takes for a player to get to the next level. With that I mean that a level 2 item generally is better than a level 1 item, a level 2 creature is stronger than a level 1 creature, a level 2 creature gives more XP than a level 1 creature, etc.

The formulas that deal with these things can be of several types. It will have little effect in the early levels which types you choose but their effects increase with each level and at higher levels the effects are large.


Linear formula
A linear formula looks like this: Y = A * X + B.

Four examples of linear formulas are found in Fallensword. The stats of items and creatures, and the gold and XP that creatures give are linearly related to their level.

• There the gold that the creatures give on average is the same as its level (so Y = X). So a level 100 drops around 100 gold and a level 200 drops around 200 gold.
• The total stats of common items is twice the level of the item (So Y = 2 * X). The stats are randomly divided over (most of the time 2 of) the 5 possible stats. So a level 10 item has 20 stat points divided over several stats, and a level 100 items has a total of 200 stat points.
• The total stats of creatures is also based on a (fairly) linear formula. A level 400 creature has around 8200 stat points (excluding HP) and a level 600 creature has around 12300 stat points (excluding HP).

A linear increase is very noticeable in the early levels because a level 1 item has only half the stats of a level 2 item (so the increase in stats from level 1 to 2 is 100%). But this increase swiftly decreases over the next levels: the increase from level 2 to 3 is 50%, from 3 to 4 is 33%, from 4 to 5 is 25%, and from 10 to 11 is 10%. The increase from a level 100 item to a level 101 item is only 1%.
You have to wait until level 20 before you encounter an item that has double the stats of a level 10 item, and you have to wait for a level 200 item before an item has double the stats of a level 100 item.

The difference between items of level 1, 2, 3, etc. is very big so players will want to switch to the higher level items as soon as possible. But at level 100 their is little urge for a player to change items because the level 101, 102, etc. simply aren't all that better; they just add 1% or 2% extra, and that's likely not enough to buy them from a vendor or hunt them yourself.

The same goes for creatures. A level 1 player has a very hard time defeating a level 2 creature as it is twice as strong as the level 1 creature. But those differences aren't that big a few levels later. If a level 100 player can defeat a level 100 creature then he can probably also defeat a level 101, 102, 105 or 110 creature with nearly the same ease.


Power formula
A slightly different kind of formula would be a power function. A simple power formula would look like this: Y = A * X^B + C.

This formula is used for the XP that players need in Fallensword for the next level. The total XP needed for a level = 10 * Level^3 = 10 * Level * Level * Level.
And as a result the XP needed to get to the next level = 30 * Level * (Level-1) + 10.

The same thing here appears as with the linear system: it takes a lot more XP each level in the first few levels, but it is slowly reduced to close to nothing in the higher levels.

For example, a level 10 player needs 3,310 XP to get to the next level (10,000 -> 13,310) and a level 14 player needs nearly double that (6,310 XP) to get to level 15 (27,440 -> 33,750). But on the other hand a level 100 player needs 303,010 XP to get to level 101 (10,000,000 -> 10,303,010) and it's not until level 142 that the XP required for another level is doubled (600,670 XP (28,032,210 -> 28,632,880)).


The problem is that at higher levels there are no real differences between levels any longer.

• It doesn't matter if your items are a lot of levels old because they give nearly the same stats as those of your own level,
• it doesn't matter if you kill creatures that are below your level because their XP and gold are quite close to the creatures of your own level,
• it doesn't matter if you fight creatures above your levels because their stats are very close to the creatures of your own level.

Exponential formula
A simple solution to this problem would be an exponential system. A simple exponential function looks like this: Y = A * B^X + C. It looks very similar to the power function, but X and B are reversed which makes all the difference.

I will give a few examples of how this could work with XP and stats.


Creatures
With an exponential function the creatures will become stronger each level based on how large "B" is in the formula example above. If "B" is 1 then creatures will remain as strong as the level 1 creature, if "B" is 2 then creatures will double in strength per level (probably a bit too steep an increase).

Let's put "B" at 1.1 in this example. This means creatures will become 10% stronger each level.
Suppose the level 1 creature has 100 stat points (divided among the different stats (attack, armor, damage, etc.)) then the level 2 creature has 110 stat points, the level 3 creature has 121 stat points, the level 4 has 133 stat points, the level 4 creature has 146 stat points, the level 5 creature has 161 stat points, etc.

This will keep the differences between creatures/levels interesting at the low as well as the high levels because the difference between a creature and one that is 1 level above or below it is always 10%.


Items
The stat increases on items will probably have to keep pace with the increase in the creatures' stats because else it will only become more and more difficult to defeat creatures until a point is reached where it becomes impossible.

So an item of a certain level will be 10% stronger than an item of 1 level lower and 21% stronger than an item of 2 levels lower. This means it will always be interesting to get the highest level items you can get, even at the higher levels.


XP from creatures
Creatures could also give XP based on an exponential function. It would penalise hunting below your level (weaker creatures) because they give less XP than the creatures of your own level. And it will stimulate hunting at your level (or if possible above your level) because the tougher creatures give more XP than those of your own level.

It would make sense to have the XP increase at the same rate as the increase in strength of a creature or perhaps a little bit less than that; otherwise creatures above your level are a bit stronger (10%) but give a lot more XP (20%). So it would work well if "B" would be around 1.08. At 1.08 a creature will give 8% more XP than a creature 1 level below its own level, it will give 16.64% more XP than a creature 2 levels below its level and 25.97% more than a creature 3 levels below it.


XP required for next levels
Creatures give 8% more XP each level. It would make sense that the XP that is required to get to the next level will increase exponentially as well. Otherwise the time/effort/amount of kills per level will either increase a lot the higher you get, or decrease a lot the higher you get.

If "B" in this formula is lower than the "B" in the formula for the creatures' XP then the amount of kills to get a level will drop the higher we go which probably makes little sense. If "B" is higher then it will increase the higher we go and if it's the same then it will remain the same.

Suppose "B" is 1.1 here, and at a certain level the XP per creature is 1000 and the extra XP needed for the next level is 100,000. That means 100 creatures have to be killed for another level.
The next level the creatures will give 1080 XP and the player needs 110,000 XP; which is 101.85 kills. The levels after that it is: 1166 XP / 121,000 XP - 103.77 kills; 1260 XP / 133,100 XP - 105.63 kills; 1360 XP / 146,410 XP - 107.65 kills; 1469 XP / 161,051 XP - 109.63 kills; etc. So the amount of kills per level slowly rises this way. In this example the amount of kills per level doubles every 38 levels so it's 200 at level 39, 400 at level 77 and 800 at level 115.



So basically I am wondering if you guys have thought about this and which type of formulas you guys are using.

I'm sorry if the math is giving you guys headaches, but they were necessary to explain things.
If things are still unclear just ask and I'll explain it better (and probably less mathy).

[Crasken]

Very nice post Savanc. Differences between those functions are clear and finding the best ones for Eldevin can be tough job. I don't believe that linear functions are used with creatures or stats. But maybe for gold drop amounts to control too much gold from appearing to the game by high level players and therefore also slightly control inflation.

I hope that the differences of stats ( creatures and items ) between levels, specially at higher levels are significant enough to encourage player to actively upgrade the gear to match his/her level. That would also keep markets and trading rolling.

These functions probably works nicely for common creatures and equipment but common creatures are killed for leveling and questing only, and for gold farming if this creature has worthy drops like a bit rarer crafting resource or anything. But I believe the community is more interested in elite / boss creatures, and their stats. These are probably hand-picked, tested, modified, tested again and so on. This leads to new questions about difficulty of others than common creatures, how high equipment does the party need to defeat this creature and is it possible to make a kill without full party if players are well equipped, etc.

But that slowly goes off-topic.. There was this paragraph about game becoming harder and harder at the high levels if stats of items grows a bit slower speed compared to creatures. I would actually like it to be a bit harder the higher level you reach. Range of skills / talents and strategy possibilities increases and if ratio between item stats and creature stats remains same it means you can defeat creatures similar to your level by just clicking that basic skill you had at level 1. But also, if difficulty of game increases while we level up and was planned to be challenging at EOC, adding new content after new content makes the game eventually impossible.

There you have some of my thoughts, hopefully it opens further discussion

[Neofito]

I've always thought that the best thing for the progressions between different levels are exponential functions.
My math is quite forgotten, I guess that this page may help to understand the differences between different types of progression
http://fooplot.com

[Dragoonale]

Tbh I hope levels are worth a lot in this game. I hate games where you can kill someone 10 levels ahead of you. It is true that skill is nice, however its nice to have your level feel something of value, otherwise you are left their sitting and thinking, why even bother? Thats my opinion but I am sure HCS will find a nice way to do this, they always do

[irfan imran]

oh pls invite me . i want to play .

[Kukica]

*Facepaw*

Oh God what you people wont ask,im sure developers are having a laugh reading what you people are asking.

[Anakiro]

Hi guys! Happy Monday!

I just wanted to drop in and assure you that we are on top of the maths involved with experience and stats. I'm not sure of the exact calculations we use, but the testers we have had on the game haven't reported any glaring issues. It is something we've tweaked a few times during development and may possibly tweak again during our closed and public test phases.

As a result I'm afraid I have no concrete answer for you. Rest assured, however, that we are aware of the issues surrounding the choices we make in those areas.

[D4VYJONES]

I know a game that Level is useless, I hate it soooooo much. :|
I played a game before, it takes months to get one level, I like it. xD One level difference is a lot in that game.

[Savanc]

Hi guys! Happy Monday!

I just wanted to drop in and assure you that we are on top of the maths involved with experience and stats. I'm not sure of the exact calculations we use, but the testers we have had on the game haven't reported any glaring issues. It is something we've tweaked a few times during development and may possibly tweak again during our closed and public test phases.

As a result I'm afraid I have no concrete answer for you. Rest assured, however, that we are aware of the issues surrounding the choices we make in those areas.

Good to hear you guys are on top of it.
I'm sure it'll come up in the Beta testing phase if someone takes the time to extrapolate his/her data and looks at the long term results and consequences.

[Xero]

I can confirm our XP is based on an exponential formula, both for level progression and XP gain for quests and creatures as the level increases. It's been a heavy focus for us this past year, and judging by our in-house testing feedback it looks like we've stuck a nice balance.

[PXT]

Excellent!! Exponential Formula is the way to go for leveling and Xp gain. There are many math nuts that have a TI-84 close by the computer 24/7 in other HCS Games HAHA

[Minerexstacy]

I got to about where the formula's started then I'm like ew... TRUE it may be easier with formulas, but how about the WoW approach where everything has their own separate loot tables and experience rates (<xp rates are probably on a formula but the drop tables are bound to that specific monster or zone based on average level of said monsters)

[Othimos]

Could a persons  level also be used so that if you fight a monster much lower than your levlel you gain less XP  if you fight higher level monsters you gain more XP,  i've seen this in a few games now and like how it makes it so you can not farm monsters lower than you for gold etc.

[Minerexstacy]

Could a persons  level also be used so that if you fight a monster much lower than your levlel you gain less XP  if you fight higher level monsters you gain more XP,  i've seen this in a few games now and like how it makes it so you can not farm monsters lower than you for gold etc.

 

This would really limit the amount of items that would come into the game too, because lets say (level 50 is cap or something... ) A max level play is in ehh level 20 area farming gear for another char... if this were implemented, they couldn't which could be good... then at the same time, this person might not have the gold to buy these items because people want too much for them or they are broke as... >.> But anywho If people cannot get gear for other characters on their main, what's the replay value gonna be for those low level areas?

   People will go through once and NEVER go back again. This said, having this replay value will keep players in the game for longer periods of time because they want to get the best items for their chars the cheapest way possible. I don't actually know how the looting system will come into play where they might be uncommon and rare drops or if it will just be vendor trash all the time with NO chance of getting uncommon items (I suppose uncommon would be crafted items Rare would be from dungeons or something.) 

   As with the part about XP rates lowering on lower level monsters, Almost all MMORPG open worlds have this implemented because when you can start one shotting monsters and still get the same amount of xp as you did the first time, that would make farming the levels way easier because the low level monsters are likely to have very quick re-spawn timers in the beginning with the influx of many new players joining the game.

   At a certain point with the higher level monsters, you don't want it too high... You want it more like the lower level monsters because you can just get a max level player to run you thorugh their zone and get maxed in less time that it would take if you were to go through all the zones by yourself. I do not suggest making the higher level monsters give larger amounts of experience over what your current level monsters give. 

   Diminishing returns would play here, lets say your getting 250 xp per kill at a level 10  and there's a level 50 who would take you to the level 50 zone he kills about 50 monsters and your getting around 700xp per kill or something. At this rate you would level up extremely fast. But if it were implemented properly the only xp you would get would be based on how much damage you did to the monster. Lets say you deal about 5% of the monsters health you would get only 5% of the actual experience this monster would give. 5% of 700 is 35 xp.

   This would be far worse than going through your actual leveling areas because these monsters would take longer to kill since they have far more health and you have to rely on someone else to survive against them.

   Also for the lower level monsters, there should be somethign similar but only based on your level. Level 10 player vs level 5 monster would only give 20% of the normal xp but if your level 11 fightin level 5 monsters, you would get none. This could also be done with the higher level monsters where level 10 vs level 16 would get no xp. but chances are there will be people who would be able to kill a level 16 monster at level 10, just because there are people who know how to play games better than most developers would like to think even possible.

   Another implementation would be to add AoE damage to lower level players so that they cannot farm off of higher level players BUT as I said before I'm pretty sure that the % based xp would be better. I only think this because... What if someone wants to try to kill a level 50 monster at level 10? AND if they succeed hurray for them, let them get the full xp they would get if they were that level.

[Crasken]

If level 10 player were able to defeat EoC creature, I'd give him every bit of xp he gains from it. And a medal. But that's really irrelevant topic of discussion since the incident is just impossible.

 

There are good points though, I'd see that well geared player with strategical knowledge is able to kill common creatures several levels higher, lets say level 30 player on level 36-37 zone. This player can kill creatures on 1v1 combat and therefore gains more xp per kill compared to killing creatures on level 30-32 zone. But the kills take a bit more time and he'd have to recover between kills since he spends more energy/mana and gets wounded. As difference in xp gain per creature between ~5 levels isn't extreme the progress to level up is actually slower at higher level zones. Also there are greater risk of death. ( Accidentally aggroing multiple creatures and being unable to escape the combat etc. )

 

When group-killing creatures with greatly higher level player in greatly higher level zone ( Lets say this level 30 player asked his level 50 friend to powerlevel him by killing level 50 creatures which I believe give far more xp per kill ) freeloading xp shouldn't be allowed, I agree with that. I think the best solution is to divide the gained xp by level of group members so in this case level 50 player gets majority and level 30 player gets the leftovers which is next to nothing. ( As contribution of level 30 player is next to nothing, the creature could have so high resistance/armour/defense stats that the player can barely wound him ) This would also work when this level 50 friend helps the player to kill creatures of his own level range ( 30-32 ) since again, high level friend gets majority of xp, or in addition, the group gets no xp at all because it includes level 50 player killing greatly lower creatures compared to his level.

If xp in group's kills were divided by amount of damage it would work as well but then support classes like healers would get nothing and there it gets more tricky.

[Belaric]

What an interesting conversation. Given the time to implementation of Eldevin I would sincerely hope that such questions of XP gain have been considered.

 

Other online games will have been studied.

 

I guess I am most interested in the skill tree. If it is satisfyingly complex and allows real differences in successful game play it is the one thing, not XP allocation, that could make this game really stand apart. In my opinion.

[Savanc]

There are good points though, I'd see that well geared player with strategical knowledge is able to kill common creatures several levels higher, lets say level 30 player on level 36-37 zone. This player can kill creatures on 1v1 combat and therefore gains more xp per kill compared to killing creatures on level 30-32 zone. But the kills take a bit more time and he'd have to recover between kills since he spends more energy/mana and gets wounded. As difference in xp gain per creature between ~5 levels isn't extreme the progress to level up is actually slower at higher level zones. Also there are greater risk of death. ( Accidentally aggroing multiple creatures and being unable to escape the combat etc. )

Indeed.

The creatures, XP needed for levels, etc. all increases exponentially. So a 5 level difference between a level 20 player and a level 25 creature should roughly be the same as between a level 50 player and a level 55 creature: both players will have a tough time killing them.

 

How tough depends on the formulas the developers use.

If they make then ext level creature 10% stronger than the current one then a creature of 5 levels above you will be 61% stronger than a creature of your current level.

A 10 level difference means the creature will be 159% stronger.

 

But as you said the XP they give will also be more. It might be wise to attack creatures slightly above your level, because you can still defeat them with relative ease and get a bit more XP from them. But attacking a creature 10 levels above you may be suicidal, so the extra XP looks great, but is unobtainable.

Also if you have trouble defeating a creature of your own level for some reason then you might want to attack a creature just below your level. 2 levels difference means the creature is 17.4% weaker than the current level creature, and the lower XP still is decent. Attacking creatures a lot of levels below you (let's say 10) will hardly do you any good. They are 61.4% weaker than the current level ones and you get a lot less XP.

 

So it's always good to go for the highest level creatures that you can still defeat with ease.

Creatures above that will probably take too much effort, time, mana and/or risk.

Creatures below that are a waste of effort, time and mana because you could have gotten more XP with higher level creatures.

 

 

 

 

When group-killing creatures with greatly higher level player in greatly higher level zone ( Lets say this level 30 player asked his level 50 friend to powerlevel him by killing level 50 creatures which I believe give far more xp per kill ) freeloading xp shouldn't be allowed, I agree with that. I think the best solution is to divide the gained xp by level of group members so in this case level 50 player gets majority and level 30 player gets the leftovers which is next to nothing. ( As contribution of level 30 player is next to nothing, the creature could have so high resistance/armour/defense stats that the player can barely wound him ) This would also work when this level 50 friend helps the player to kill creatures of his own level range ( 30-32 ) since again, high level friend gets majority of xp, or in addition, the group gets no xp at all because it includes level 50 player killing greatly lower creatures compared to his level.

If xp in group's kills were divided by amount of damage it would work as well but then support classes like healers would get nothing and there it gets more tricky.

I agree with you.

A higher level player should not be able to make a lower level powerlevel.

 

In your example the level 30 could hardly contribute to the battle. If we take the 10% per level example I mentioned earlier then the level 50 creature would be 573% stronger than a level 30 creature.

Clearly the level 50 player did the most in defeating the creature, and the level 30 player could only stand there and look decorative.

 

Because the level 50 player is 573% stronger than the level 30 player (so 6.73 versus 1), I would say he should get 87% of the XP (87% = 6.73 / 7.73) and the level 30 player gets 13% of the XP (13% = 1 / 7.73).

That way the level 30 player would get around the same XP as if he killed a level 30 creature. That's probably what he added to the battle anyway.

[Savanc]

I guess I am most interested in the skill tree. If it is satisfyingly complex and allows real differences in successful game play it is the one thing, not XP allocation, that could make this game really stand apart. In my opinion.

There is some information about Skill Trees. It's a few months old so it might be outdated. Any comments from the developers would help here.

 

http://forums.hunted...?showtopic=7506

http://forums.hunted...?showtopic=7512

 

[Samuel Burman]

Is it the same equation for all skills and may I ask, what is the equation(s)?