481 replies to this topic

[Pardoux]

This is 2 sides of the fence agreeing too. It's a start, but people have to be willing to compromise.

 

 

 

This is a good start for what to consider for rewards. Incorporating the rewards from the original Seasons makes alot of sense.

 

 

Medals are always good incentives. Look at how many went after the Smasher medal when it was introduced.  Even after being nerfed, it got some to play and have fun with this part of the game.

 

 

 

I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree. In a regular global, players hit creatures for a reward. It works very similar to how fs works on a daily basis.  For a pvp global, it needs to do the same thing. Otherwise, it's not pvp.

I get not everyone likes xp loss. You do realize you face xp loss every day in this game, right? Losing to a creature even costs you xp. You have ways to make yourself less of a target. Multiple ways. But there is no safe 'opt out'. There is never going to be an 'opt out' in PvP. Why would it be considered to be part of the global meant to promote that area of the game? You're not promoting PvP with this. You're taking away from it, which has been the problem for way too long.

 

Of course you lose XP if you lose to a creature and of course there are "some" ways of protecting yourself.

 

That's not the point tho ...

 

Surely, promoting PvP means making it more attractive and enjoyable TO THOSE THAT WANT TO PARTICIPATE in it whilst, on the same token, making it LESS INTRUSIVE AND DISTRACTING to those that don't.

 

Not sure how the cows can accomplish that, but forcing players to partake in something they don't want to is not good for the game.

[Mister Doom]

What a pointless continuation of a discussion, it has gotten nowhere.

 

If a pvp global is created without either xp loss removed or being optional, it will crash and burn exactly the same as the initial implementation of the smasher medal. At the same time it will foster even more 'hate' between the leveller and pvp player-base and almost assuredly cause people to leave the game, again.

 

Not really sure why the people who campaigned for the train wreck that was the 'first' smasher medal are trying to make the same mistakes again.

 

PvP is simply not as popular/loved as some people want it to be, it will likely never be embraced in the way that they want it to be, simply trying to 'force' it down everyone's throat is just going to end badly for the entire game.

[KitiaraLi]

Agreed. Not sure if reduced loss has ever been considered but surely it'd help? I mean, I PvP occasionally and I almost ALWAYS end up on the Bounty Board. And I almost always lose 5 levels because I'm an evil Admin. I get those level back swiftly enough.

 

~ Grim

Maybe this should be the main concern for the discussion then? Not the "what is we nerf xp loss" approach, but the "what if we teach players that xp loss is not the worst since someone tried cooking the first brussels sprouts" ?
 

The idea about nerfing the xp loss as an incentive to try out PvP in a global, is to me the same as gently pushing someone till they drop on their knees, then look at 'em and say "see, that didn't hurt that much" and then expect 'em to wanna get pushed head first into the ground after that, with the logic that hurting your knees wasn't all bad, so hurting your face must be just fine as well then.

I don't see it working like that. If we want more players to do PvP, we need to teach 'em it is not bad, nor something to be feared. I have no idea why som many seem to think XP is the best thing in this game since Heath Ledger (you girls know what I am talking about). But they do. And they fear PvP, mainly since it takes away their precioussss.

What they need to know is exactly what you said yourself; The lost xp is gained back swiftly.

 

Heck, those with big stam banks, gain the lost xp back, just by sitting still to regain their spend stam.

[yotwehc]

Maybe this should be the main concern for the discussion then? Not the "what is we nerf xp loss" approach, but the "what if we teach players that xp loss is not the worst since someone tried cooking the first brussels sprouts" ?

The idea about nerfing the xp loss as an incentive to try out PvP in a global, is to me the same as gently pushing someone till they drop on their knees, then look at 'em and say "see, that didn't hurt that much" and then expect 'em to wanna get pushed head first into the ground after that, with the logic that hurting your knees wasn't all bad, so hurting your face must be just fine as well then.
I don't see it working like that. If we want more players to do PvP, we need to teach 'em it is not bad, nor something to be feared. I have no idea why som many seem to think XP is the best thing in this game since Heath Ledger (you girls know what I am talking about). But they do. And they fear PvP, mainly since it takes away their precioussss.
What they need to know is exactly what you said yourself; The lost xp is gained back swiftly.

Heck, those with big stam banks, gain the lost xp back, just by sitting still to regain their spend stam.

This is why all of your suggestions fail. As you admit yourself, you have no idea why people treasurer their xp so much. If you cannot understand that, if you cannot understand why people don't use the BB or why they don't think it works as punishment then how can any suggestion ever work? Even reduced xp loss won't work. Current xp loss is minimal as many of you say. So making that less will make people magically go hey, this ain't so bad. Yeah. You don't understand.
When any with a differing point of view stste that even with reduced xp loss, I want an opt out, you all ignore it. This is why pvp promo events fail. You don't understand and you ignore the opposition.
Maybe, like arena, have a noob pvp area with no loss but no prize either (or just a tick towards global participation). This way folks can get a taste for how fun live pvp is. It would almost have to work with multi hits since normal pvp hits are one and done. Not much dancing. The hook is the live battle but at least grt people to try. Xp loss is kryptonite.

[Pythia]

I can not say what I really think here, so I'll just ask that a special zone be made (like the seasonal zones) for PvP and let the people that want to play that aspect enter in and have at it.  I won't say how to set anything up, that's up to those that play it, and I won't be one of them.

 

I'll travel, explore and enjoy the game aspects I like.

[KitiaraLi]

This is why all of your suggestions fail.

This is trolling, and I will not take the bait.

 

As you admit yourself, you have no idea why people treasurer their xp so much.

Correct, I don't. Yes this game is also about leveling up (gaining XP), but yes, this game is also about PvP (losing XP). Main word being game. So no, I do not understand why someone would get as upset as I have experienced players do, both in pms, shoutbox, here on forum etc - for loosing 2 million xp just after doing a hunt where they have gained 500 million xp.

My thesis is, that if players learn, that XP loss in PvP is really not that big a deal compared to how easily it is regained, they might not fear PvP as much.

 

If you cannot understand that, if you cannot understand why people don't use the BB or why they don't think it works as punishment then how can any suggestion ever work?

This has always puzzled me as well. Why is it, that some players freak out over loosing 2 mill xp via a gold hit, but don't see it as fitting punishment that the gold hitter looses 40 mill xp (as a minimum)?

 

Even reduced xp loss won't work. Current xp loss is minimal as many of you say. So making that less will make people magically go hey, this ain't so bad. Yeah. You don't understand.

Funky, I thought I wrote something similar, but guess I don't understand then.

When any with a differing point of view stste that even with reduced xp loss, I want an opt out, you all ignore it. This is why pvp promo events fail. You don't understand and you ignore the opposition.

So, you don't have an opt out already? As in.. you cannot buy the extremely cheap PvP Protection? It has been mentioned a few times in this thread already - also by the big Grim.

Maybe, like arena, have a noob pvp area with no loss but no prize either (or just a tick towards global participation).

Classy of you to insult those who play the arena aspect of the game.

 

This way folks can get a taste for how fun live pvp is. It would almost have to work with multi hits since normal pvp hits are one and done. Not much dancing. The hook is the live battle but at least grt people to try. Xp loss is kryptonite.

I will state my thoughts again, and it is fine if you do not agree. I doubt we (as in the community and HCS combined) can attract more players to dabble into the PvP aspect of the game, unless we present just that; PvP.

Not a tweaked and nerfed version of it. If we want more players to get over their fear of PvP, they need to experience it in full. They need to feel for 'emselves what it does to 'em when they get smacked, and how it feels to have your friends and allies to retaliate. They would learn more about 'emselves and the character they play in this game, as they unleash their fury on the bounty board, to protect and avenge their own friends and allies. They need to experience that life does indeed go on, even though there is a few million xp missing. They need to go back to the hunting grounds, smack 10 critters and go "oh, that was "all" the xp I lost to that gold hit". And most of all (it was for me back in the day anyways) - they need to get to know PvP players while all the smacking is going on. Most are actually the nicest ppl you can meet, and most will chat with you.
That is my belief. Feel free to think otherwise.

The above used xp examples are all based on 10 stam hits, used at a range I have no idea where is - guessing around lvl 1K ish. No animals were hurt while writing this message.

[Calista]

Maybe this should be the main concern for the discussion then? Not the "what is we nerf xp loss" approach, but the "what if we teach players that xp loss is not the worst since someone tried cooking the first brussels sprouts" ?

 

 

I will state my thoughts again, and it is fine if you do not agree. I doubt we (as in the community and HCS combined) can attract more players to dabble into the PvP aspect of the game, unless we present just that; PvP.

Not a tweaked and nerfed version of it. If we want more players to get over their fear of PvP, they need to experience it in full.

 

This is what I've been trying to say. We have to stop approaching PvP like it is something wrong. It's part of the game. We wouldn't have a XP global that didn't reward xp.  Why would we do a PvP global that doesn't have xp involved as well? The community faces XP loss on a daily basis, through several areas of the game. They aren't safe there, so shouldn't be safe in this type of event.

 

 

 

Even reduced xp loss won't work. Current xp loss is minimal as many of you say. So making that less will make people magically go hey, this ain't so bad. Yeah. You don't understand.

 

I agree. The current stam lost in regular pvp is pretty minimal. Unfortunately, not all players agree with this. So a suggestion was made by Grim that maybe reduced xp loss would work. I personally think we should keep it as is, to be realistic. But I think BOTH sides need to be willing to budge a bit.

 

There is no opt out in PvP.  There is never going to be an opt out in PvP.  You've been given more then 1 way to protect your character. It's just never going to be 100% protection. Enough taking away from this area of the game. You face the risk on a daily basis, even if you don't realize it. An opt out would be a lie about how things work.

[matt2269f]

i am mostly a lvler but i do dabble in pvp here and there / if i get hit by a 10 stam i lose about 300k xp -if i get 100 stammed its over 3 million ,now with 20k max stam i get about 12 lvls if i use decently high lvl hunting pots - so this "oh i will just hit a 'few' creatures  to regain what i lost' is bull - its takes a lot of stam to recover the lost xp vs the 10 stam or 100 stam used to make me lose it -not to mention whatever gold was lost usually in the millions - yet players have to worry about Any retaliation they do whether its putting a bounty or hitting back - cuz some players will be like well now i am going to repeatedly 100 stam them or bounty on a hit back (possibly with a guild or friend doing a smash fest) the bb with a standard clear of 10 stam hits = 10* 200 stam hits /while a smash party by a single player = 10*2000 stam

Edited by matt2269f, 16 December 2016 - 15:59.

[matt2269f]

earlier someone mentioned that even the globals can have xp loss as well as leveling / any decent leveler  rarely dies while hunting unless they arent paying attention to their buffs ,as for the globals and xp loss ? please- the creatures are lvl 50 -even in stam gear they cant kill most players 

[Pythia]

I am purely a leveler/titan hunter and as I hunt, I do quests, hit on titans if I see one and in general just enjoy myself.

 

When I lose experience through PvP it knocks me backward in the game, that sucks more than I can possibly express as I play to move forward not backward.

 

GvGs can cause up to and sometimes over 100k damage to a players gear.  Not sure if it's because of being hit with more than 10 stam hit. I know stam use can be adjusted.

 

GEs, those are something different. Sometimes I don't bother changing out of the stam gear to do them. HOWEVER. If I stay in stam gear I go down to Ramd or some other like area to run the GE.  I do change gear if I stay in the hunting zone to do the GE. I have died doing that because I hit something I hunt that was not part of the GE... Ooppps. 

 

MY FAULT.. I messed up.

 

I don't demand,nor even ask players to go backward in the game and wonder/wish the same could be extended to me.  I guess it qualifies in concept of bird of feather playing together.

 

So I will keep advocating for the separate zone idea that I can avoid.

Edited by Pythia, 16 December 2016 - 17:36.

[matt2269f]

i was in the last 'seasons' event and do to a glitch some players lost incredible amounts of xp - that caused an outcry 

next problem after that was fixed was the bounty /auto bounty system -it was flawed - causing an outcry 

next was player having to battle players 100's to thousands of lvls above them this caused another outcry and finally was the 'random' selection of players which wasnt very random as same players became repeat targets over and over again 

 

all these things drove players away in large numbers - with global events of any kind if the majority of FS doesnt get involved then the global does poorly 

 

i understand pvp and how it works And how it can (and does) get abused to Overly 'Punish' players 

 

now for any global to work well and players to spend their time and stamina they must feel they are getting something for their effort 

Now the majority of fs players are levelers with a minority of pvp'rs 

so for this type of global to succeed it will have to involve the majority of all players 

[Pythia]

How many GEs do we have now?

 

Pinata

Frag

the dead thing one that gives ZBs

 

 

My mind is a bit foggy now and I can't remember any others.

 

Oh yeah, the easter bunny one

then I think there is the one at christmas.

 

I don't think the last two are GEs.   :/

Edited by Pythia, 16 December 2016 - 18:43.

[yotwehc]

This is why all of your suggestions fail.

This is trolling, and I will not take the bait.

That's fine, call it what you will... Give me an example of a PVP promo event that succeeded. I've given you 2 that failed although Seasons was a whole lot more complicated. Smasher was straightforward.

 

As you admit yourself, you have no idea why people treasurer their xp so much.

Correct, I don't. Yes this game is also about leveling up (gaining XP), but yes, this game is also about PvP (losing XP). Main word being game. So no, I do not understand why someone would get as upset as I have experienced players do, both in pms, shoutbox, here on forum etc - for loosing 2 million xp just after doing a hunt where they have gained 500 million xp.

My thesis is, that if players learn, that XP loss in PvP is really not that big a deal compared to how easily it is regained, they might not fear PvP as much.

Your attempts at teaching players xp loss is really not a big thing have failed. Did smasher medal teach anyone? nope. Did seasons? nope. Not understanding why and you keep trying the same thing over and over while failing... I think it's a definition of something... what exactly was it?

 

If you cannot understand that, if you cannot understand why people don't use the BB or why they don't think it works as punishment then how can any suggestion ever work?

This has always puzzled me as well. Why is it, that some players freak out over loosing 2 mill xp via a gold hit, but don't see it as fitting punishment that the gold hitter looses 40 mill xp (as a minimum)?

The only folks who think the BB works are? hint... not the vast majority of levelers who don't even bother ;-p

 

Even reduced xp loss won't work. Current xp loss is minimal as many of you say. So making that less will make people magically go hey, this ain't so bad. Yeah. You don't understand.

Funky, I thought I wrote something similar, but guess I don't understand then.

We agree on something? Finally! Release the flying pig titan!

When any with a differing point of view stste that even with reduced xp loss, I want an opt out, you all ignore it. This is why pvp promo events fail. You don't understand and you ignore the opposition.

So, you don't have an opt out already? As in.. you cannot buy the extremely cheap PvP Protection? It has been mentioned a few times in this thread already - also by the big Grim.

This opt out you speak of... it failed during smasher... failed during seasons... so how well did this opt out work? Again, if your not willing to learn from past mistakes. Not everyone engages in the forums. Heck I was one of those... fat and happy playing the game than the disaster that was the smasher medal that almost made me quit... thus was chewy the forum stalker was born.

Maybe, like arena, have a noob pvp area with no loss but no prize either (or just a tick towards global participation).

Classy of you to insult those who play the arena aspect of the game.

Not sure how this is an insult? there is a noob area... you CAN participate and win up to 48 times for minimal cost in arena. After that, you can no longer play in the noob area. Check it out... it's there!

 

This way folks can get a taste for how fun live pvp is. It would almost have to work with multi hits since normal pvp hits are one and done. Not much dancing. The hook is the live battle but at least grt people to try. Xp loss is kryptonite.

I will state my thoughts again, and it is fine if you do not agree. I doubt we (as in the community and HCS combined) can attract more players to dabble into the PvP aspect of the game, unless we present just that; PvP.

Not a tweaked and nerfed version of it. If we want more players to get over their fear of PvP, they need to experience it in full. They need to feel for 'emselves what it does to 'em when they get smacked, and how it feels to have your friends and allies to retaliate. They would learn more about 'emselves and the character they play in this game, as they unleash their fury on the bounty board, to protect and avenge their own friends and allies. They need to experience that life does indeed go on, even though there is a few million xp missing. They need to go back to the hunting grounds, smack 10 critters and go "oh, that was "all" the xp I lost to that gold hit". And most of all (it was for me back in the day anyways) - they need to get to know PvP players while all the smacking is going on. Most are actually the nicest ppl you can meet, and most will chat with you.

That is my belief. Feel free to think otherwise.

I agree and disagree on some of your points. Yes, the vast majority are great folks. Just takes a small number of terrible folks to ruin it for others. Your actions support some of those that take less scrupulous actions. Read my in game bio... I have the luxury of communicating without fear of ban from those that supposedly crossed some imaginary unwritten rule although by most accounts, they didn't really do anything. Support your mates unquestioningly... that's fine but you are helping propogating the worst elements.

Perhaps another idea that I think someone suggested way back... Like  a dream, the GE starts and we all get tossed into PVP chaos.. more details... than after the event is over, we wake up from the dream and everything is restored... this way, people get a taste of the xp loss yet nothing is permanent and some may end up liking it. The approach thus far has not worked... gotta try something new instead of trying different lipstick on the same pig.

The above used xp examples are all based on 10 stam hits, used at a range I have no idea where is - guessing around lvl 1K ish. No animals were hurt while writing this message.

Edited by yotwehc, 16 December 2016 - 18:52.

[yotwehc]

This is what I've been trying to say. We have to stop approaching PvP like it is something wrong. It's part of the game. We wouldn't have a XP global that didn't reward xp.  Why would we do a PvP global that doesn't have xp involved as well? The community faces XP loss on a daily basis, through several areas of the game. They aren't safe there, so shouldn't be safe in this type of event.

 

 

 

 

I agree. The current stam lost in regular pvp is pretty minimal. Unfortunately, not all players agree with this. So a suggestion was made by Grim that maybe reduced xp loss would work. I personally think we should keep it as is, to be realistic. But I think BOTH sides need to be willing to budge a bit.

 

There is no opt out in PvP.  There is never going to be an opt out in PvP.  You've been given more then 1 way to protect your character. It's just never going to be 100% protection. Enough taking away from this area of the game. You face the risk on a daily basis, even if you don't realize it. An opt out would be a lie about how things work.

You think xp loss is minimal yet reducing it is some how going to make people change their minds? Seriously? If your goal is to promote pvp and try to show others that xp loss is no big deal, I'm afraid it's going to fail. You've already seen some say that they are still not cool with it (reduced xp idea).

 

It's a bit confusing as some say there is an opt out (paid) whilst you say there isn't. That "opt out" you guys refer to did not work to mitigate smasher medal nor did it help with seasons.

 

This thread isn't about taking away from the area of the game but promoting it... Unfortunately the majority of the ideas simply widen the gap and make a lot more folks like it less. I'm at least trying to come up with ideas that gives folk a taste of it without reinforcing what they hate most about it that many of you admit you don't understand. Most of your ideas are about re implementing failed ideas with a different color lipstick.

Edited by yotwehc, 16 December 2016 - 23:17.

[Calista]

It's a bit confusing as some say there is an opt out (paid) whilst you say there isn't. That "opt out" you guys refer to did not work to mitigate smasher medal nor did it help with seasons.

 

This thread isn't about taking away from the area of the game but promoting it... Unfortunately the majority of the ideas simply widen the gap and make a lot more folks like it less. I'm at least trying to come up with ideas that gives folk a taste of it without reinforcing what they hate most about it that many of you admit you don't understand. Most of your ideas are about re implementing failed ideas with a different color lipstick.

 

PvP protection is not an opt out. It keeps your xp safe, but it does not keep you from being hit. There is nothing in the game that is going to guarantee you won't be hit. I think pvp protection is another thing that has taken away from pvp, but that's another topic. And it is now in place, thus has to be dealt with. Ya know, like something that is part of the game?

 

Why do you keep calling the Smasher medal a failure? I just got a medal. Lots of people I know work on that medal. It got people who were not pvping to take part. Look at the list. Granted, it's not something everyone is doing. But is anything?

 

The entire topic was started to bring back Seasons. I've been against that from the start. But Seasons was another attempt to take away from PvP. I don't see a pvp global being wildly accepted.  But if you're going to discuss doing it, let's stop taking away from it and build on what it actually is. Taking away from it has repeatedly failed.  Stop trying to change it. Stop treating it like something wrong. IT'S PART OF THE GAME! Promote what it is really about, not what you want to pretend it is.

[yotwehc]

PvP protection is not an opt out. It keeps your xp safe, but it does not keep you from being hit. There is nothing in the game that is going to guarantee you won't be hit. I think pvp protection is another thing that has taken away from pvp, but that's another topic. And it is now in place, thus has to be dealt with. Ya know, like something that is part of the game?

 

Why do you keep calling the Smasher medal a failure? I just got a medal. Lots of people I know work on that medal. It got people who were not pvping to take part. Look at the list. Granted, it's not something everyone is doing. But is anything?

 

The entire topic was started to bring back Seasons. I've been against that from the start. But Seasons was another attempt to take away from PvP. I don't see a pvp global being wildly accepted.  But if you're going to discuss doing it, let's stop taking away from it and build on what it actually is. Taking away from it has repeatedly failed.  Stop trying to change it. Stop treating it like something wrong. IT'S PART OF THE GAME! Promote what it is really about, not what you want to pretend it is.

The original implementation of the smasher medal was a failure... and it had all the elements you asked for. No opt out (aside from protection), normal xp loss, increased BB activity, etc. THAT was the failure. It was changed rather quickly but this is the simplest event that was supposed to increase pvp activity and it accomplished that... but the cost to HCS... the uproar by the general community was so great that it had to be modified to basically an opt in. You either did ladder or you did pvp and got on the BB. No uproar SINCE aside from some pvprs who want it back in it's original form. It was a failure because there was no opt out despite the fact that buying protection did technically opt you out.

 

I'm not trying to take away from PVP. I'm telling you many of the suggestion here will fail. Please give me examples of where "Taking away from it has repeatedly failed." I've given you the original implementation of smasher medal that failed spectacularly. The fix was to remove normal pvp... I wonder why? I hope you know the answer to that.

 

PVP is part of the game but the way you want to promote it fails. How would you promote pvp when you genuinely do not understand why the vast majority of folks don't like it? You don't accept the past failures. You keep hanging on to the fact that this is a pvp game. I counter that this is a MMORPG... much more dimensions than pvp alone. I'm not treating it as wrong... you assume that... I've stated multiple times that the vast majority are great players but you have them bad apples... You may disagree but believe it or not, it is true... I AM making suggestions to take out what most players dislike about pvp and trying to get them to get a taste of it FOR A GLOBAL... That would be a successful global... IF you want a global with only 100 or so players than so be it... I would be asking the Pythia's, the Rowbeth's and the others who are least likely to participate, what would it take for you to at least try it?

Edited by yotwehc, 17 December 2016 - 02:17.

[Pythia]

I play to move forward, not backward.

 

One step up, two steps down. One step up, two steps down.     NO.  

 

It's taking me a long time to move forward.... That's up to me not someone else that says:

 

I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HIT YOU AND TAKE WHATEVER I CAN GET AND  IF YOU BOUNTY ME I'LL HIT YOU HARDER AND MORE.

 

If you can't be bothered to find common ground, don't expect me to  accept your hard core or nothing attitude.

[matt2269f]

Here is what i find the most ironic - the loudest voices against a "PVP" event are the pvpers 

you would think they would be all for it - they get to show off their pvp skills - but all most do is complain its 'too soft or watered down"

yet you always hear pvp is dying /the ladder is dying/ the bb is dying 

 

so what if its a 'pillow fight' - its another aspect where they can pvp (and dominate) - but it seems like hard core pvp'rs arent happy unless carnage is involved and they can wreck havoc and cause as much damage to others as is humanly possible 

[matt2269f]

hcs is trying to find a way to get more 'pvp' into the game that non-pvpers might enjoy -if that means nerfing xp loss /gold loss / bounties etc to do that im all for it 

 the regular pvp aspect will always be in play so those that like to 'pvp' can always do so 

[wraith]

Lets get rid of XP for creature kills and see who uses stam on hunting, shoe on the other foot. This thread is off the rails hard.