86 replies to this topic

[yotwehc]

OK - I'm trying to stay positive and turn the questions around. Can we find a strategy that will make these quests pay out?
I eventually managed to convince myself this was possible with the inventing quests. So now for break-down quests...

My initial response has been to ignore these as being unworkable, but:

Hunting snakes in Elya Plains North: they drop a shield that you can break down, and a snakes-head that you can combine with a bought sword (the shop is also in Elya Plains Nth) for 1k gold to create a sword that *can* be broken down. Based on FI1k (24k) and RF175, I that gives about 2.7 stam + 3.3 gold per item (+ walking, repair & buff costs). With RF300 that becomes 1.88 stam per break-down, which would turn chewy's DQ into "pay gold to turn current stam into reserve stam". Even RF400 leaves Lou's quest as an all-round loss.

So has anyone come up with a better way to deal with break-down DQs? It seems to me that direct hunting will never pay, as the drop rates are always very low. Inventing items based on resources, components of quest items is likely to be better becuase RF and QH boost those drop rates much more than FI does the normal drop rates.

Nice suggestions!

What I did was raid the guild store as some of our new players filled it up with junk they found and I also hit up my own inventory. I also shopped the AH but I did break down and killed some rats and natives. I guess one way to do this is to store some junk and ask guild mates to do the same after hunts. Whom ever gets the DQ gets the junk. Make it a team effort although I imagine everyone bps are full of ZBs at the moment ;-p

[BigGrim]

Reserve stamina certainly is more valuable, however, that is still a rubbish effort/reward ratio.

 

How about providing some actual feedback regarding what you think the reward ratio could be?

[Mister Doom]

The way the forum is these days I don't feel particularly inclined to try and help fix FS flaws much.

I will however point out when I see something that is obviously bad, after all it isn't OUR job to fix/create/bugstomp the game.

Edited by Mister Doom, 01 November 2016 - 11:09.

[BigGrim]

It's bad to a few players who comment on it. Others have managed to make it work. If you don't feel it's worth it, constructive feedback would help.

[Mister Doom]

It's not worth it. You simply do not know if your comments are going to be labelled 'Off topic' or not these days. Usually better to keep things short and sweet.

 

Point out things you think are bad, let the devs come up with the fixes. Not going to waste my time any more, when things far too easily simply get deleted or locked.

[Pythia]

One persons rubbish is someone elses treasure, all viewed through the eye of the beholder and every beholder is different.

 

Like others I pick and choose what I do and it's all good.    For someone..

[Pardoux]

Personally, I've still done EVERY SINGLE DQ thus offered and whilst some offer far superior rewards than others, I'll still do 'em 'cos it's "something to do whilst waiting, eternally it seems, for more content".

 

I seem to get an awful lot of DQ's that give allegiance tokens - ok, the existing pots in there are, for the most part, as much use as an ash-tray on a motorbike, but I live in hope of some other stuff being added in there that will actually make my increasing stockpile have some use / value again.

 

Others give me current stam - sometimes more than I use on the quest itself, sometimes less - but regardless, it's another tick towards the DQ medal and, ultimately, a boost to my "Pride" pots ...

 

So, yes, in essence, some are definitely MUCH better rewards than others, but I'll keep doing 'em regardless - but that's just me I guess....

 

As as aside, I think there's FAR more important stuff that needs attention / fixing than the rewards here ...

[Egami]

Again, I like this FS Forum thread for the opportunity to discuss rewards without derailing everything else.

 

I'll "apologize" to players that think they aren't being "heard". Nah, scratch that. 

 

What I think is good about this thread is the possibility to discuss. 

 

I don't know, I don't pretend to hold the book about what is good for the game here. 

 

Mostly what I've seen is that players are far too concentrated on themselves (shown even more in recent posts). 

 

HCS has already adjusted the rewards. I'm honestly not 100% sure that was a good idea, but I do think it was appreciated across the game.

 

I think DQs are a delicate situation in so far as they can often apply to something you are already doing. 

 

I have openly stated that I do NOT think that a DQ needs to hand you a bonus.

 

My personal position is clearly debatable. 

 

I'd really like to point out that the 50 (?) of us or so that bother to participate here in the FS Forum do NOT represent player opinion.

 

I'd go further to suggest, and this is a personal opinion, that you (whoever you are and myself included) are not the "voice of FS". 

 

I didn't really comment about any of the rewards on this whole diatribe precisely because of that. Well, other than to say that they could be positive for other people.

 

Me? I definitely am a medal chaser. Complaints I've seen that I've responded against are those that say, "hey, it costs me more stam than the prize I get".

 

None of those comments take into account the DQ medal tick and, in my eye, the fact that nobody is required to do anything.

 

I do the DQs as they are convenient. Some I've seen have done all. Is anybody right? I think not.

 

Again, I like this thread to discuss issues and identify "possible" faults. As long as those improve the game. It "seems" that HCS responded to that by upping rewards.

 

I openly admit that I have a hardcore issue with any player in game pretending that they talk for the community.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I too think that some of the rewards suck, or aren't convenient for me. 

 

Even some of the rewards I really like aren't convenient for me.

 

Hence, I make my decision.

 

For the first time, my major flaw is actually thinking outside my character. Why? Because I can't really evaluate whether a DQ might be more beneficial for others or not.

 

Anyway, I think opinions are good and I try to learn from them. 

 

Comments like, "this quest reward sucks and I won't do it" from the 25 out of 50 players who actually waste our time here, isn't very convincing to me.

[rowbeth]

I think one thing to remember, Egami, is that when HCS upped the rewards, they also introduced some new types of quests---most notably the inventing and break-down quests.

 

These two types of quests have, therefore, not had the same degree of scrutiny as the originals, and arguably still need the cost/reward rebalancing that the originals have had. I also think the fact that HCS *did* rebalance the others is a strong indicator that they have accepted the principle that DQs should provide a net positive return to player resources (above and beyond medal ticks). Personally (as expressed in /index.php?showtopic=74546&p=968634) I don't think that return has to be big, but it does have to be positive.

 

In the case of inventing rewards, I think it has taken time to learn how to optimise the quest. I still worry that it is a quest only for those with gold to spare, but I can see how to ensure that even the current-stam reward versions come in with a net stam gain that costs less than 5k per stam (the cheapest purchase price available to us). It is not nearly as good as the original classes of DQ now are---and I think it would be better if such differences were random instead of systematic---but it is at least net positive.

 

I still can't see how to get the break-down quests to the same point. They are a substantial net negative in all ways but the medal tick. I don't think it is good that they stand out from the crowd in this way, and I do think HCS should consider rebalancing this set of DQs to recognise the large cost involved in gaining items to break down (enumerated in my earlier post in this thread).

Edited by rowbeth, 01 November 2016 - 22:22.

[Egami]

@row, I pretty much agree to a large degree with everything you've said.

 

Our major difference is that I don't see a "net reward" needing to come from doing the DQ.

 

I "think" the base reason is because of point of view. My opinion is based on a huge number of assumptions that aren't necessarily correct. 

 

My personal view is that a DQ does not have to be, per se, a bonus. 

 

I assume that they are done for a player reaching max stam that decides to use that stam to do something instead of doing nothing. I also assume that this "could be" (though not necessarily) more relevant for getting huge stam banks to log in and do stuff.

 

This last assumption is extremely naive in a lot of ways and I admit it. I can only work from the fact that if I have stam that will go to waste, I'll be willing to use it for whatever. 

 

Again, I want to underline, that it's a huge assumption. 

 

In my case, I'm way more apt to do a DQ if I won't be using my stam and will overflow. 

 

I assume that the ideology behind the DQs was to get peeps with huge stam banks to log in more. At the same time, it was meant to give players who want an option to use their stam.

 

Again, all assumptions.

 

What I would point out is the following: "Kill X# of poor defenseless creatures and steal their gold with no option to bounty" (sorry, couldn't resist) is the best example to kind of get behind what I believe is a base in this whole argument.

 

If you already plan on killing that type of creature (be it, normal, aquatic, demon, etc, Titan, SE, Legendary (last case or maybe two or three cases, harder, but still possible), then the "reward" is a bonus. If you are going to do it anyway... And what's more... the reward comes up, so maybe you will strategically decide to move forward your goal.

 

Inventing, well... people still make Fury pots or Black Death. I don't "think" it's the norm, but it could coincide. 

 

Regardless, had a guildie that asked yesterday and told them to think about the Mystic Pick Axe. Recipe 50 gold, one item 25 gold plus drops. They only had to invent 30 and got a BP space out of it. If they learned about relevant buffs to use to minimize their cost, then all good in my book.

 

On break down... yeah, I'm a frag farmer and a composer. So yeah, that could induce me to kill two birds with one stone and compose.

 

More to the point, it might make me "think strategically" and hold items for break down. 

 

For me, as a player, everything with respect to DQ is about player decisions. I strive to optimize what I do to coincide with getting a reward for free. 

 

That is obviously not always possible but I have been able to do it based on my priorities.

 

My take is that the major push with this idea was to get people with large stam banks log in. I don't think that's the only end-point. 

 

But when you consider stam overflow (which is NOT EOC dependent)... then the discussion of it "not being worthwhile" gets thrown out the window. 

 

Anyway, not sure my diatribe was really worthwhile. Just my 45 cents.

 

EDIT: A couple grammar corrections. 

Edited by Egami, 01 November 2016 - 23:15.

[BadPenny]

The rewards for the quests are not the issue for me. It's a question of being doable. I spent a lot of time and 14k stam trying to break down x items. I made it a third of the way through. I play on a tiny phone. These 2 quests are virtually impossible on a phone...

Very often, I get a response to this statement to run down and buy a cheap computer. Which bill should I neglect for this so I can play a game?

[duktayp]

i use the breakdown DQ as an opportunity to replenish my fragment supply - which i occasionally did anyway before the DQs

 

i can finish it with a few fsp in AH and 0 stam spent - from my perspective it's one of the preferable DQs

[BigGrim]

These two types of quests have, therefore, not had the same degree of scrutiny as the originals, and arguably still need the cost/reward rebalancing that the originals have had.

 

Indeed. The only real feedback I've had on those is that their Stam rewards would be better if it awarded 2 or maybe 3 times the stam. Thoughts?

[Pardoux]

Indeed. The only real feedback I've had on those is that their Stam rewards would be better if it awarded 2 or maybe 3 times the stam. Thoughts?

 

I fail to see why the DQ's have to give a net "profit" ? - what's next ? - just giving folk stuff for logging in (other than, of course, allegiance tokens) ?

 

I thought the whole point of the DQ's was to give players something to do ? - NOT to give them something to "profit" by ? (regardless of the amount of "profit" made)

 

I've done loads of DQ's where I've had a net loss - but do I care ? - NO - I still do 'em.

 

Folk have the CHOICE to do them or not do them - if they don't feel the reward is ample for them to do 'em, then don't - it's pretty darn simple really ...

Edited by Pardoux, 02 November 2016 - 11:18.

[BadPenny]

Indeed. The only real feedback I've had on those is that their Stam rewards would be better if it awarded 2 or maybe 3 times the stam. Thoughts?

The rewards are secondary to me

I just get aggravated when I try to do something and cannot.....

[cucullainn]

With the past few quests I've gotten being to either break down countless items (tried once, didn't finish, stammed out less than halfway through) or invent countless items (I avoid inventing quests already for crissakes) I have lost my joy in doing these. I'm no longer enthused to log into fs every day....

Cows are losing their biggest fan...

I myself have tried to do the one where I had to invent x amount of items after a while of Not getting the drop I needed. I just up, I didn't feel like was worth doing. The one where you can break down items. Might be better for somebody with a large stam Bank. Who could accomplish it while leveling.

Though there were a few in the beginning that I truly liked. I haven't seen as much of them in the last week or so. Which leads me to believe. that there are many New or lower level players. Who are not getting the DQs they may feel they can do.

Before any of the DQs went into effect. The consensus that I got from the fs community. Was that it hopes that the DQ did benefit EOC (Larger Stam banks) over newer players. That it would be something for everyone to do. From my understanding a lot of players at EOC are looking for stuff to do while waiting for content and things. I understand that and I believe there are still some quest that a lot of us can do. Though some of these quest to Invent items. Or to Break Down items. Are not what a lot of us lower-level players or new players are going to be looking to accomplish

[rowbeth]

Pardoux - You and I are at EOC, and looking for things to spend our stam on. But the DQs are not just about 160 players at EOC.

 

Think of, for example, a committed leveller who is half way through the levels, with maybe 1-2 weeks of stam. The game will be better if they log on each day. If the DQ gives them a net gain (however small), then they are likely to log in and do the DQ. If the DQ is a net loss, they will see it as a distraction form their game goals and ignore them, and possibly end up logging in once every 1-2 weeks. I think this applies to any character that is currently using all their stam for existing game goals (titan hunters, GVGers ...). It is for those characters that it really is important that the DQs must not be a negative/drain on their resources.

[rowbeth]

Indeed. The only real feedback I've had on those is that their Stam rewards would be better if it awarded 2 or maybe 3 times the stam. Thoughts?

 

Having found the right things to invent, I don't think the inventing rewards do need much change; people just need to learn what to invent. A bit more stam in the stam rewards would probably put them on a par with the earlier rewards, but they are already a net gain if people invent the right things. Perhaps lowering the number of inventions would be better.

 

For the item break-down, I think you probably need to target 3.5-4 current stam per broken-down item. Reserve stam could be a bit less.

[BigGrim]

Having found the right things to invent, I don't think the inventing rewards do need much change; people just need to learn what to invent. A bit more stam in the stam rewards would probably put them on a par with the earlier rewards, but they are already a net gain if people invent the right things. Perhaps lowering the number of inventions would be better.

If that information was shared with players then that'd help, I reckon.  Lowering the number of invents might just be a worthwhile fix, sure.
 

For the item break-down, I think you probably need to target 3.5-4 current stam per broken-down item. Reserve stam could be a bit less.

 

A possibility, yeah.

[Pythia]

I get my frags from hunting and frag events.

 

I need to check that out first. 

 

This is for inventing DQs.    

 

This is good for players that have limited bp space or not much interest in frags.  Lots of zombie kings means lots of crowns.

 

Hope it helps others.

Edited by Pythia, 02 November 2016 - 18:02.