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Add the option to keep 1 roll when rerolling a 2 roll item


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#1 Savanc

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Posted 04 September 2015 - 20:05

My suggestion is to add an option to the rerolling system which allows players to reroll single rolls instead of all rolls on items with multiple rolls.
 

I am aware this suggestion post is a bit long and everyone's time is valuable. So here is a summary without all the yucky math. :D
 

  • Right now rerolling 2 1-handed weapons to acceptable rolls is much cheaper than rerolling 1 2-handed weapon to acceptable rolls.
  • The main reason is because with 1-handed weapon you never throw away a good roll, while with a 2-handed weapon you throw away a good roll if the second roll is bad.

Suggestion: 

Allow players to keep a roll, and just reroll 1 roll on an item with multiple rolls.
Double the cost of rerolling 2 rolls at the same time.

 

 

 

 

If you read past this you might run into math. Be aware!

 

Why?
You might ask the question: why should rolls on 2-handed weapons and armor like the Infernal Axe and Infernal Staff be treated different than rolls on 1-handed weapons like the Infernal Dagger, Infernal Essence, Infernal Shield, etc.?
Well, the truth is that they are treated different in the current situation! And this suggestion is here to make sure these rolls are treated equal to rolls on 1-handed weapons and other 1-roll items.

 

 

 

 

Situation now
When we do not like the roll on an Infernal weapon (or level 49 craftable pants, helmet, or belt) we can reroll it. There are 6 possible roll types on a weapon: Haste, Crit, Attack Power, Accuracy, Weapon Damage and Health on Hit. The chances are 1 in 6 for each roll. But of course we do not like every roll as much as other rolls.

 

1-handed

Let us assume on an essence we prefer Weapon Damage, but we will also accept Spell Attack Power (for a mage) or Crit (for a healer). The other 4 roll types are reasons for us to reroll. That means we have a 2 in 6 chance (33.33%) to get a good enough roll type.

On a 1-handed sword it might be Attack Power, and either Haste or Crit or HoH or Weapon Damage; on a throwing weapon it might be Attack Power, and either Haste or Crit; on a knife it may be Attack Power, and either Haste or Crit; etc.
For a lot of players 2 types are acceptable while the other 4 are not. Some players are more picky and some are not. In any case we will take 2 as an average number.

 

2-handed
Let us do the same with an Infernal Staff/Axe and only accept 2 roll types (Haste and Crit for healers; either Haste or Crit, and Attack Power for mages; Weapon Damage, and either Attack Power or HoH for warriors). The chances of getting 2 of these roll types however is not 2 in 6!

The chances of each roll combination for staffs/axes are the following:
  a. 1 in 36 for 2x Haste
  b. 1 in 36 for 2x Crit
  c. 1 in 36 for 2x Attack Power
  d. 1 in 36 for 2x Accuracy
  e. 1 in 36 for 2x Weapon Damage
  f. 1 in 36 for 2x Health on Hit
  g. 2 in 36 for Haste + Crit
  h. 2 in 36 for Haste + Attack Power
  i. 2 in 36 for Haste + Accuracy
  j. 2 in 36 for Haste + Weapon Damage
  k. 2 in 36 for Haste + Health on Hit
  l. 2 in 36 for Crit + Attack Power
  m. 2 in 36 for Crit + Accuracy
  n. 2 in 36 for Crit + Weapon Damage
  o. 2 in 36 for Crit + Health on Hit
  p. 2 in 36 for Attack Power + Accuracy
  q. 2 in 36 for Attack Power + Weapon Damage
  r. 2 in 36 for Attack Power + Health on Hit
  s. 2 in 36 for Accuracy + Weapon Damage
  t. 2 in 36 for Accuracy + Health on Hit
  u. 2 in 36 for Weapon Damage + Health on Hit
For a total of 36 in 36 of course.

If you accept 2 roll types then you only have 4 out of 36 possible roll combinations. That is 11.11% chance per time you roll.


 

1-handed

A player with 3 1-handed weapons will on average require 6 rerolls to get their desired rolls. After all, for each weapon the chance to get one of the 2 acceptable roll types is 2 in 6 (33.33%). The first roll is when you craft the item, so on average at the 2nd reroll you will have gotten it.
As this player requires 3 weapons it will cost him/her 6 rerolls on average to get acceptable roll types.

 

2-handed
For a player with a 2-handed weapon and a 1-handed weapon this is not the case. A throwing weapon and an essence also just require on average  2 rerolls  to give acceptable roll types. But the 2-handed weapon requires 8 rerolls to produce 2 acceptable roll types. 

6 versus 10 rerolls.

 

 

 

Roll Strength
What if we factor in the strength of a roll?
The strength of a roll is how much rating/power/health/etc. it gives. For example, 250 Attack Power, 300 Haste, 50 Critical Chance and 60 Health on Hit. The 250, 300, 50 and 60 are strengths

Every roll type has 7 different strengths (Weapon Damage has 6.5%, 7%, 7.5%, 8%, 8.5%, 9% and 9.5%). Even if we find Weapon Damage an acceptable roll, then are we happy with 6.5% Weapon Damage? Or would we reroll?
A mage who prefers Attack Power but accepts Crit might reroll a low Crit roll even though they would accept a high Crit roll. Maybe they would also reroll the 2 lowest possible Attack Power rolls, but would accept the highest 5 Attack Power rolls. And a Health on Hit or Accuracy roll is unacceptable in any case of course.

There are 42 possible roll strengths and types (7 strengths per type times 6 roll types). It will not be uncommon for a player to accept most strengths of their desired roll type, but only high rolls of the second acceptable roll type, and never an unacceptable roll type.
Let us say the 5 highest strengths of the preferred roll type and the 2 highest strengths of the acceptable roll type are good enough.
Then for 1-handed weapons we have a 7 in 42 (16.67%) chance to roll it each time we reroll.

 

1-handed
Going back to the player with 3 1-handed weapons, they have to use 15 rerolls on average, because they will use 3 weapons times 6 times to roll; and of course the first roll is when making the weapon, so 3 time 5 = 15 rerolls.
 

2-handed

For a 2-handed weapon the chance to get an acceptable roll has diminished considerable. The chance to get an acceptable roll combination is only 49 in 1764 now (2.78%).
To make a 2-handed and a 1-handed weapon with acceptable rolls will require 40 rerolls. 5 rerolls for the 1-handed weapon (1 in 6 chance and the first roll is while making it) and 35 rerolls for the 2-handed weapon (1 in 36 and the first roll is while making it).

Now it is: 15 versus 40 rerolls.


 

 

Pickier players
I dread to think what happens to more picky players. As a Haste Healer I would love to have high double Haste rolls on my staff and a Haste roll on my Essence. But who am I kidding? That will never happen with the current system. (And to be honest with my proposed system it may remain a dream; though easier to afford.)
If I only accept the 3 highest Haste rolls then in the current situation my staff would on average require 195 (!!) rerolls. Plus 13 rerolls for the essence. Compare these 208 rerolls to the 39 for a player with only 1-handed weapons. :blink: :(


 

 

 

My proposal:
Allow players to reroll just 1 roll on an item

Double cost for rerolling 2 rolls.

This will bring the rerolling 2-handed weapons in line with 1-handed weapons, because when this will be implemented 2-handed weapons that have 1 acceptable roll type and 1 unacceptable roll type will no longer have to be completely rerolled. Instead the player can choose to keep the acceptable roll and reroll the unacceptable one.

Let us get back to the two examples before (one example was where 2 rolls are acceptable; the other example was where only 7 strengths of certain roll types were acceptable).

Example 1:
There is still a 4 in 36 chance (11.11%) that out of the blue a player will roll 2 acceptable types, but now we have added the chance that we get 2 acceptable rolls in smaller steps. First we roll the weapon and we end up with 1 acceptable to roll and 1 unacceptable roll. The chance of this happening is 16 in 36 (44.44%). The next time we reroll we will keep the acceptable roll type and only reroll the unacceptable roll type. The chance to end up with another acceptable roll type is 2 in 6 (33.33%).

 

When crafting a 2-handed weapon we have a  11.11%  chance to get 2 acceptable roll types, 44.44% chance to get 1 acceptable roll type, and 44.44 % chance to get no acceptable roll types. If we get no acceptable roll types we will just reroll both and the same chances again apply.
If we get 1 acceptable roll type we will keep that one and reroll the unacceptable roll type with a 2 in 6 (33.33%) chance to get an acceptable roll type. This is just like a 1-handed weapon.

On average, you will have rerolled the 2-handed weapon 3.2 times to get 2 acceptable rolls (4.2 rolls but the first roll is from crafting the weapon), but because of double cost for rerolling 2 rolls at the same time it is exactly as expensive as rerolling a roll 4 times.
To get a 2-handed weapon and a 1-handed weapon with acceptable rolls it will cost the equivalent of 6 rerolls (4 + 2). For 3 1-handed weapons it is on average also 6 rerolls (3 x 2).

 

Now:     6 versus 6 rerolls

It was: 6 versus 10 rerolls

 

Example 2:
In this example the strength of rolls is taken into account and this reduces the number of rolls we find acceptable. With 7 strengths being regarded as acceptable (5 strengths of the desired roll type and 2 from an acceptable roll type) the chance of 1-handed weapons to get an acceptable roll is 7 in 42 (16.67%).

For 2-handed weapons this used to be 49 in 1764 (2.78%), but in the new system the chances are different. To get  2 acceptable rolls from scratch is still 2.78% , but to get 1 acceptable roll is 490 in 1764 (27.78%) and no acceptable rolls is 1225 in 1764 (69.44%). If we get no acceptable rolls we will just reroll bot h rolls (with the same chances again), but if 1 roll is acceptable then we will keep that one and reroll the bad roll at a chance of 16.67% (just like 1-handed weapons) to get an acceptable second roll.

On average, you will have rerolled the 2-handed weapon 8 times to get 2 acceptable rolls (9 rolls but the first roll is from crafting the weapon), but because of double cost for rerolling 2 rolls at the same time it is exactly as expensive as rerolling a roll 10 times.
To get a 2-handed weapon and a 1-handed weapon with acceptable rolls it will cost the equivalent of 15 rerolls (10 + 5). For 3 1-handed weapons it is on average 15 rerolls (3 x 5).

 

Now:     15 versus 15 rerolls.

It was: 15 versus 40 rerolls.

 

 

 

With this suggestion it is much more affordable to get decent rolls on a 2-handed weapon than it was before. And it is completely in line with the chances on 1-handed weapons.

That is exactly what my proposal aimed to achieve.

 

 

 

Edit 1: Added the part about double cost when rerolling 2 rolls. Thanks for the advice, JQuan and ernzor.


Edited by Savanc, 08 September 2015 - 11:07.

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#2 Linkondrugs

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 02:44

Jesus TLDR :P no but some really good points


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#3 ordinaryfunguy

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 05:52

good idea but it would mean increasing roll cost right?


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#4 Savanc

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 10:35

good idea but it would mean increasing roll cost right?

I doubt it.

Right now people aren't crafting the weapons because the roll chances are stacked against them.

With this suggestion more people will find the Infernal Weapons good alternatives to their current weapons.

So reducing the ridiculous amount of rerolls needed per 2-handed weapon will be offset by the increased number of weapons being rerolled. ;)


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#5 RISDMAC

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 11:42

good idea but it would mean increasing roll cost right?

 

 

I doubt it.

Right now people aren't crafting the weapons because the roll chances are stacked against them.

With this suggestion more people will find the Infernal Weapons good alternatives to their current weapons.

So reducing the ridiculous amount of rerolls needed per 2-handed weapon will be offset by the increased number of weapons being rerolled. ;)

Honestly the re-roll costs should be recuded BECAUSE or Sav's excellently laid out points.

 

You really need to pray to the RNG gods and lets be honest, they rarely, if ever listen to said prayers  :lol:

 

I honestly think it should cost just 100 EP to reroll either a 1H or a 2h weapon (1 stat) or cost 200EP to re-roll a 2h weapon (both stats) ie 100EP per re-roll per stat per item...


Edited by JQuan, 05 September 2015 - 11:42.


#6 Wiivja

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 12:21

Honestly the re-roll costs should be recuded BECAUSE or Sav's excellently laid out points.

 

You really need to pray to the RNG gods and lets be honest, they rarely, if ever listen to said prayers  :lol:

 

I honestly think it should cost just 100 EP to reroll either a 1H or a 2h weapon (1 stat) or cost 200EP to re-roll a 2h weapon (both stats) ie 100EP per re-roll per stat per item...

If they change that now, how will that be fair to those that spent thousands of ep? They would need to be refunded. 



#7 aliadnan12

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 13:55

*waits for dave* lmao :ph34r:  :ph34r:


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#8 redsmokeboy

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 14:01

Dave - spent 20k EP sadly - This change he might be more inclend reroll - For now out 20k EP way to much say for has yet get propper roll.


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#9 KeS

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 02:44

hmm not sure to disagree or agree..........


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#10 redsmokeboy

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 02:54

Fully understand pain of wasting 250 EP on rerolls - 1 stat not issue - 2 stats Max roll good and all but 2 nd roll complete crap is it worth cost reroll - not at all.

 

Full agree need's be option 2-h or lower Cost

Flate rate fee 1 state - if i had to fine pay 250 EP Each stat as long as i can lock 1 stat in place - reroll one stats.


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#11 ernzor

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:23

Yep only ok with this if 2H weps have to pay double to do both rolls at once. Apart from that, it is all good!

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#12 Savanc

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 08:39

Yep only ok with this if 2H weps have to pay double to do both rolls at once. Apart from that, it is all good!

That would be quite a good idea.

By rerolling both rolls you have a better chance getting at least 1 good roll than when rerolling 1 roll.

 

Adding this also makes the costs completely the same compared to 1-handed weapons.

In the examples it would become: 6 versus (cost of) 6 rerolls, and 15 versus (cost of) 15 rerolls. B)


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#13 drdoom123

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 09:18

Honestly the re-roll costs should be recuded BECAUSE or Sav's excellently laid out points.

 

You really need to pray to the RNG gods and lets be honest, they rarely, if ever listen to said prayers  :lol:

 

I honestly think it should cost just 100 EP to reroll either a 1H or a 2h weapon (1 stat) or cost 200EP to re-roll a 2h weapon (both stats) ie 100EP per re-roll per stat per item...

agreed


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#14 Removed18058

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 10:58

poor dave 

 

 

savanc this has been suggested by if not mistaken aresdeusex or dave or by myself in dave his rage thread :P

 

 

all i can say is

 

 


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#15 Savanc

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 11:10

I'm sorry to hear that Dave spent so much EP on rerolling a 2-handed weapon.

 

But I think that this is a good suggestion for the game as a whole even if other people spent a lot of EP on it in the past (on the bright side he got to use it for quite a while now).


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#16 Removed18058

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 13:11

https://forums.hunte...es/#entry937387

 

https://forums.hunte...ll/#entry932740

 

 

2 previous topics nothing changed

 

 

i wish you good luck sir

 

 

however what do we do to those who already rerolled?

 

there will be riots there will be chaos

 

:x


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#17 kidref

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 13:14

poor dave 

 

 

savanc this has been suggested by if not mistaken aresdeusex or dave or by myself in dave his rage thread :P

 

 

 

 

if the who have reroll can send in how many times they ahve reroll a 2h item maby they get some discount on next reroll they made



#18 Kendiosa

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 13:42

Prices/costs/caps change in games all the time due to market conditions or gameplay improvements etc. These should not be retrospectively applied nor should players be refunded; just like no one was refunded gem costs when the 75% cap was introduced. If there is any move to reduce reroll costs then there should be no refunds.
I spent a fair few ep (not 20k mind you) on rerolls and I support the idea of reducing the cost to make it more accessible for all, however I do not expect a refund of what I spent before. I was fully aware of the cost and I chose to spend the ep.
Back to the OP: I like the idea of separate rolls on the 2h weapons. Of course that means more coding for HCS whereas the current system was easy to implement as it just remakes a fresh weapon each time.

Edited by Kendiosa, 08 September 2015 - 13:42.


#19 Removed18058

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 10:46

short story shorter

 

it won't change give up XD


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#20 Savanc

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 11:31

Cripler, can you please stop posting messages about how you think things will never change?

They add nothing to the conversation and merely create a negative atmosphere.


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