32 replies to this topic

[Leos3000]

Well the title has a lot to do with this post, as the biggest flaw I see in overall acceptance of PVP in this game is they way the actual combats work. Attacking someone either unbuffed or unsuspecting of when you are going to hit them does not appeal to a wide variety of people.

PVP can be fun for all, and to me I find it the most fun when you are hitting back and forth between people who know the attack is coming soon (for some it may be being deleveled on the BB while online)

What I think upsets a lot of people who are attacked is they have no way to prepare for a random attack thus having little chance to win upsets them especially when they are the 1's risking the most initially (gold and Xp)

I am Proposing several Changes to the Actual PVP system that should make it more fair and appealing.

1st Change

-Change how people can be attacked

How?

Set up a new attack system that gives both parties an equal opportunity to win the combat.
-when attacking you choose who ever in your range to attack (not in protection)
-You then attack and choose the amount of stamina
-When Defending you will now receive a Message in your log you are being attacked, but the attack will not occur for 2 minutes - 5 minutes (a random time in between to allow each party to dance/change sets in anticipation)
-Once the attack has started both parties amounts of Gold and XP are frozen before the attack (meaning you can not lock your XP or sell your gold before the attack starts)
-Defender now has several choices once the attack starts, do nothing, or buff up and change suits to defend their xp and gold
-Also in this system there should be double Xp loss if the attacker losses

2nd Change
-Allow people to respond to attacks appropriately
-allow each hit to be bountyable
-allow a retaliation hit (if this is taken bounties are lost until next attack)
for a retaliation hit it is only available once after the initial attack (not a never ending stream of attacks b/t the 2 parties)
It also allows the original defender a chance to gain back what ever XP they take, but as was stated in change 1 if they lose as the attacker they lose 2x the XP

3rd Change
-Give incentive/disincentive to attack active/inactive players
-The game shows players as being active if they have been online with in 30 minutes
-If you attack someone who is active you Gain the following
*Gold
*Prestige
*If 100 stam a tick towards Smasher medal (still only once every 7 days though)
*Defender Loses XP

-If you attack someone who is Inactive you get the following
*Gold
*NO XP loss
*NO prestige
*NO medal progress

4th Change
A system where the 2 people attacking each other have an equal opportunity to hit each other

-when attacking there is a 50/50 shot on who gets the 1st swing (meaning it is random on whether the attacker or defender hits 1st.)



*note these DO NOT apply for on the Bounty Board



This system should 1 make more people interested in PVP, 2 make the overall combat system more even and appealing, and 3 have a lot less people upset about being attacked, because it would be their choice to not defend themselves.

[DragonLord]

I GUARANTEE you'll get some "so you want PvP like it was in Sigmastorm2? - that's why the game died" posts (regardless of that being completely wrong.)

[Maehdros]

Can a defender ST gold? Forge an item to sink gold? or even buff themselves deflect?


Would these rules apply to ladder hits as well?

[Leos3000]

Can a defender ST gold? Forge an item to sink gold? or even buff themselves deflect?


Would these rules apply to ladder hits as well?

what ever gold they had on them when the original attack was initiated is what would be at risk, as far as buffs they can cast what ever they want to prepare for the combat deflect included

[Maehdros]

as far as buffs they can cast what ever they want to prepare for the combat deflect included

That right there would Kill gold hits. The ability to simply buff up deflect.

[evilbry]

Your proposal to 'fix' is to dramatically change the Risk:Reward equation?

I'd suggest taking a moment to really think about what you have suggested. It's going to discourage PvP rather than encourage it(unless that's the ulterior motive).

[Leos3000]

For the ladder not totally sure on which way to go with that?

I would keep all the same rules, and also say no PVP point would be gained if they attack while your inactive, but as a trade off XP is always lost when on the ladder.

Thoughts on this?

[hbklives]

For the ladder not totally sure on which way to go with that?

I would keep all the same rules, and also say no PVP point would be gained if they attack while your inactive, but as a trade off XP is always lost when on the ladder.

Thoughts on this?

No PvP Point when your inactive? Not everyone is on at the same time, so syncing up your times would be half to impossible discouraging any ladder hits, really. I mean, most ladder players go offline with their buffs still active or something to protect them. No need to soften it more. 100 stam hits for all! :twisted:

[yotekiller]

So if someone just finished a hunt and threw their gold on the MP but was attacked before it sold how would that be affected? Freezing gold would also prohibit someone from bidding in AH and otherwise disrupting the normal course of the game. Yes I know making a gold hit also affects those things but it's an instant hit and not a drawn out lock-down.

[avvakum]

-When Defending you will now receive a Message in your log you are being attacked, but the attack will not occur for 2 minutes - 5 minutes (a random time in between to allow each party to dance/change sets in anticipation)
-Defender now has several choices once the attack starts, do nothing, or buff up and change suits to defend their xp and gold

It sounds like a version of PvP Arena with buffs added.. that's not thievery anymore, and I am sure that it takes less than 30 secs to write a bot that will switch combat sets based on a trigger message in player's log. I've never liked players "on auto refresh" who randomly switch combat sets and join PvP Arena 24/7. :wink:

Want to save PvP? Remove PvP Protection and XP lock!

[RJEM]

It's an idea at least - but it still reduces PvP to a transitory interaction where all that matters is gold stolen, xp lost, and bounties. I stand by the below - and although I recognise it might be too much for HCS, I do feel it's the only possible way of making PvP appealing.

"PvP is stale. Every thread on it is a rehash of the same concepts: Gold loss, XP loss, Bounties, PvP Protection, the Ladder. None of it has worked, and none of the proposed ideas has *ever* looked likely to convince a leveller to PvP. Tweaking the amount of this or that loss is NOT good enough.

The PvP element of the game needs to be burned down, rebuilt, and reimagined. You need a character building element to it - call them PvP ranks, Thief, Rogue, Master, Guild Leader, Shadow - which you can advance through by engaging in PvP. Otherwise there is no role for this role playing game. That's why XP gain in levelling is appealing to many - there is a tangible (if artificial) sense of progress.

The PvP aspect of the game should be extricated from XP altogether - XP comes from creatures, not players. Reinvent Prestige as the 'currency' of PvP (like stamina) - gaining prestige lets you initiate more attacks, steal more gold etc.

Remove levels as a restriction by basing PvP on your PvP Rank (above). Obviously a major change - but make PvP skills a separate tree, and start everyone off with a basic PvP set. PvPing allows you to upgrade your set, purchase new items for it etc. Again, it needs to be appealing and have progression to make it attractive - and if everyone is a target (but only for PvP relevant things, not XP and levels) then the game base just got a whole lot bigger. I'd join in.

Make PvP depend on Prestige, not stamina, so an efficient leveller can engage in the other whilst recharging - hence the idea about using Prestige as a kind of substitute.

Add PvP quests - assassinations, robbery, lynching, anything tbh. Just something more creative than 'smack, gold stolen, xp lost, next target'

I could go on and on and on. Seriously, the whole community needs to stop looking for a plaster and amputate the whole limb so we can start afresh. I strongly, strongly, suggest that everyone gets on the same page.

[Snowy900]

so what happens if the target doesnt want to participate at all?

[Khanate]

so what happens if the target doesnt want to participate at all?

According to what I understand, the player doesn't defend and loses XP and gold. Then he has the option of retaliation hit, bounty or doing nothing.

From what I understand the main purpose of this is giving people a chance to defend. This probably won't promote gold hits, but it could be beneficial to the ladder (by actually knowing who is attacking you, you can react to their setup) and to promote PvP as being more fair.

Whether this would be effective, I leave to others the opportunity to discuss as I am unsure.

[Khanate]

The PvP element of the game needs to be burned down, rebuilt, and reimagined. You need a character building element to it - call them PvP ranks, Thief, Rogue, Master, Guild Leader, Shadow - which you can advance through by engaging in PvP. Otherwise there is no role for this role playing game. That's why XP gain in levelling is appealing to many - there is a tangible (if artificial) sense of progress.

Seems like a huge change. FS is a pretty simple game that was built with very incremental changes. I doubt HCS has to capability to build a compelling and balanced system like the one you describe.

[RJEM]

The PvP element of the game needs to be burned down, rebuilt, and reimagined. You need a character building element to it - call them PvP ranks, Thief, Rogue, Master, Guild Leader, Shadow - which you can advance through by engaging in PvP. Otherwise there is no role for this role playing game. That's why XP gain in levelling is appealing to many - there is a tangible (if artificial) sense of progress.

Seems like a huge change. FS is a pretty simple game that was built with very incremental changes. I doubt HCS has to capability to build a compelling and balanced system like the one you describe.

Possibly/probably true. However, unless PvP changes radically I can see nothing ending the impasse we have currently. Some people like PvP now. Others hate it. No amount of tweaking of the parameters within the existing framework has a hope of working!

[Khanate]

The PvP element of the game needs to be burned down, rebuilt, and reimagined. You need a character building element to it - call them PvP ranks, Thief, Rogue, Master, Guild Leader, Shadow - which you can advance through by engaging in PvP. Otherwise there is no role for this role playing game. That's why XP gain in levelling is appealing to many - there is a tangible (if artificial) sense of progress.

Seems like a huge change. FS is a pretty simple game that was built with very incremental changes. I doubt HCS has to capability to build a compelling and balanced system like the one you describe.

Possibly/probably true. However, unless PvP changes radically I can see nothing ending the impasse we have currently. Some people like PvP now. Others hate it. No amount of tweaking of the parameters within the existing framework has a hope of working!

You can lay a massive system on top of current PvP, but it will always be based on instantaneous attacks. I understand that an optimal system would be very different from the one we have, but what would be the goal of such a system?

[RJEM]

You can lay a massive system on top of current PvP, but it will always be based on instantaneous attacks. I understand that an optimal system would be very different from the one we have, but what would be the goal of such a system?

To make the game more fun. That's what I'm always after

I would like PvP to be inclusive and operate in tandem, harmoniously, with levelling. The distinction we have in the game right now is artificial and I don't think it needs to exist. The instantaneous aspect is one thing that would be pretty hard to remove from a browser based game, so I'm steering clear of suggesting anything like that.

[Khanate]

I would like PvP to be inclusive and operate in tandem, harmoniously, with levelling.

This, what does it mean? What does it imply? That PvP and PvE be completely separate? I really want to support your idea because you usually have good solutions, but if I said "+1" I wouldn't even know what I would be supporting :|

[RJEM]

I would like PvP to be inclusive and operate in tandem, harmoniously, with levelling.

This, what does it mean? What does it imply? That PvP and PvE be completely separate? I really want to support your idea because you usually have good solutions, but if I said "+1" I wouldn't even know what I would be supporting :|

Fair enough

Yes, separate to most intents and purposes. Gold would be a common currency - but I can't see a logical reason for the 'same' limiting aspect affecting both PvP and the in-map activities. Stamina, basically, prevents anyone doing both PvP and Levelling effectively.

The gist of my idea is to have different sides of your character which you can develop - the existing XP/Levelling side governed by use of stamina, and a new PvP side governed by Prestige - slowly recovered over time, but also gained through attacks, PvP quests etc. This would mean that during the 6 days I am regaining stamina after a hunt I can still log in, play the PvP side of the game, and actually spend MORE time in the community than I do now.

This would allow people to simultaneously enjoy both aspects, without negatively harming either. The other MAJOR change would be that the PvP side would have its own levels/ranks, and hence the PvP side would be independent of your PvE level - something which PvPers have been keen on for ages. It gives everyone more chance to interact.

My guiding principle here is that a gameplay style which only ever affects others negatively is not sustainable, regardless of how it's set up.

Thoughts?