73 replies to this topic

[l3fty]

I'm just focusing on the res here.

 

I don't think it is an inconvenience (to someone who wasn't used to practically constant res's), I think it is asking for a level of planning. Across a single boss fight which lasts between 5 to 10 mins you will have 4 emergency ressurects from your groups non healers, and your healer should be able to res 2 to 3 times at least, probably a bunch more. For fights which last longer than that, peoples cooldowns will begin to tick back around.

 

We're not going to balance the game taking heavy latency or client lag into account, as it again would trivialise thing for people who have a good machine/connection. The performance of the client is something we hope to constantly improve, but there is nothing we can do about bad internet connections.

[ChelseaBrick]

" We want to move toward a system where in groups players have to use their res's strategically in combat if they have to use them, and put a little more emphasis on staying alive. A healer should be able to res significantly more often, if they spec into the spell and have a bit of haste (Off the top of my head, I think healers have a haste talent)."

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but in all the dungeons that I run, my emphasis is "staying alive."  Typically the healer's main concentration is the templar.  If someone drops, say a glass cannon assassin, the appropriate person to res the dead is one of the remaining dps. A prophet cannot possibly take time out of healing to res someone who died during battle.  Where is the strategy in this? Strategy is planning who goes where during boss fights.  Strategy is pulling spiders off the prophet because they pose so much threat during Lord Undeath while avoiding the strike of his gothic blade.  Longer dungeons don't equal strategy.  If the prophet has to stop to res a dead player, the whole team may wipe.  Have you ever had to use an emergency potion to stay alive because the healer was overloaded?  Well that's two minutes before you can use another one.  You just res someone dead on that last mob?  The next glass cannon is out of luck because there's a five minute wait before someone can "strategically" die on the next mob.

[HuMoR]

I'm just focusing on the res here.

 

I don't think it is an inconvenience (to someone who wasn't used to practically constant res's), I think it is asking for a level of planning. Across a single boss fight which lasts between 5 to 10 mins you will have 4 emergency ressurects from your groups non healers, and your healer should be able to res 2 to 3 times at least, probably a bunch more. For fights which last longer than that, peoples cooldowns will begin to tick back around.

 

We're not going to balance the game taking heavy latency or client lag into account, as it again would trivialise thing for people who have a good machine/connection. The performance of the client is something we hope to constantly improve, but there is nothing we can do about bad internet connections.

Again...any place you can die at isn't a place you will be able to res at...when it comes to mind...here are the only places in a dungeon you can die at basically
-Quatronos in ARG
-Rumble in ARG
that's really about it for now.

ok so I shall say this..1) lag is your bosses biggest weapon at this point in the game(client or no client my connection is flawless and my machine runs games with way better reqs flawlessly so i have to say its not on my end). 2) even without lag sometimes...there are register problems where you are on a dot and the dmg still goes off. 3) you cant say 4 emergency res'rs....healer cant res..and in those 2 situations neither can the tank. If your healer res's thats a wipe...if your tank res's that's a deaggro= death to another dps that leaves 1 dps 1 tank and healer and then you just fall down its a domino effect.
This doesnt make a strategy for dungeons,it just causes an inconvenience.

Quatronos- 1 member dies even with good placement and teamwork you wont be able to res as said he will deaggro and chuck a rock during your next dot phase if templar tries,a healer can not do so as the team will wipe and your dps's can't bring em back due to how constant the dots go...so either you hit the dot and die or skip the dot and possibly team dies entirely.

Rumble- bombs crystal drops and aggro problems atm due to the cc immunity you guys made rumble deaggros quite a bit now..so again..dps dies....you can try to bring him back you may succeed in this entire time your healer then has to make sure to heal the tank and be able to heal the res'd exactly as they spawn or they will die again,this wouldnt be a problem if we could talk during death. also..doing this then causes your prophets more stress you are right now in the game throwing all the stress on prophets...that's how you killed your templar player base in the start..don't do the same to prophets.
No amount of solo dungeons can solve that issue.

Edited by HuMoR, 20 September 2014 - 23:02.

[ChelseaBrick]

5 minute cool down is fine for the low level dungeons.  They don't take hours to complete.  

 

Run ARG a few times and then we'll talk.

[l3fty]

Well this is what I mean about potential rebalances to the content. I don't think skilled players should be dying on trash mobs in dungeons, ascended or otherwise, so perhaps they are too punishing (or as i've seen, people just pull loads of mobs at once)

 

In the example you've given about the glass cannon i'd say why did he die, did he pull boss agro off the tank? was he too slow to move out of some AoE damage, which if he's specced a complete glass cannon he should be avoiding like the plague. I know it's a hypothetical, but I want to hold players of the end game content to some higher level of skill.

[HuMoR]

Well this is what I mean about potential rebalances to the content. I don't think skilled players should be dying on trash mobs in dungeons, ascended or otherwise, so perhaps they are too punishing (or as i've seen, people just pull loads of mobs at once)

 

In the example you've given about the glass cannon i'd say why did he die, did he pull boss agro off the tank? was he too slow to move out of some AoE damage, which if he's specced a complete glass cannon he should be avoiding like the plague. I know it's a hypothetical, but I want to hold players of the end game content to some higher level of skill.

well there is another problem in the games design..you make it so 1) every dungeon is based off speed,in order to hit this speed mark you need a glass cannon,if you throw enough points into vit that it will make a difference you've already lost too much dps to be a candidate for the dungeon. 2) there is no talk time for such events in ARG for those bosses as everything happens so fast there is no time to discuss who is going to res...so then accidents can happen and 2 res same time boom that's either 1 or both res's wasted. With the current design of the game you can't have both..that's just it. 3)those dot aoe hits in arg are a 1 hit through even fabled set vit+ 40 points into vit with redemption and repent so...how would that be remotely possible for the people who need to do this dungeon to try and acquire their set..? I feel as though points have been forgotten along the way during the creation process in the past few months. 

ALSO Can't say trash mobs in ASV..you peeps overly buffed sins..you have to do 1 group at a time now due to them damn bleeds..when a entire team can die repeatedly to 4 sins of a group...i'd say that's far from balancing when your mobs are more time consuming and more of a challenge then the bosses themselves.

[ChelseaBrick]

Those "trash mobs" in ASV are assassins with bleeds and stuns.  They use eclipse and then their damage is boosted for a short amount of time and they're using bleeds that already ignore defense and armor.  So you can't exactly call them "trash."

 

And what Guth said--I love the bosses compared to the trash mobs that take twice as long to kill now.  That time between the first and second boss in ASV--I'm looking for razor blades to slit my wrists.  I'd rather bleed out than spend another hour to get to the third boss.

 

But...I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the change to us.  You have the cojones to face the population.  

Edited by ChelseaBrick, 20 September 2014 - 23:18.

[Wiivja]

Firstly, everyone chill out with the each-others-opinion bashing.

 

Secondly I'll try and explain where we are going with the res changes. The situation we had previously was that every player could participate in chain-resing. This trivialises content if you have enough players and diminishes part of a healers job. We want to move toward a system where in groups players have to use their res's strategically in combat if they have to use them, and put a little more emphasis on staying alive. A healer should be able to res significantly more often, if they spec into the spell and have a bit of haste (Off the top of my head, I think healers have a haste talent).

 

So if you're struggling on Zor at the moment; do you have a few adequately specced healers in your group? Was everyone avoiding the flame areas? Was your tank positioning himself to orient zor's AoE's away from everyone? Maybe next week I can come and see what happens during the fight, as it's perhaps now more about balancing fights such as zor's a little differently.

 

And sure we might have made the cooldown too long for non specced players, we can look at it. I'm not in a huge rush to make it much quicker though as I'd like to be able to make content at level 50 which can't be brute-forced so easily.

We did a second run with about 12-13 people and it went fine. Problem first run was that tank died

[HuMoR]

Also I would like to thank you for taking the time to try and explain..I may disagree and argue the point,but it is still appreciated.

[l3fty]

Trash is a term used across mmo's to describe non boss creatures in dungeons, specifically the ones that don't have the decent gear drops youre there for. A trash mob can still be a right pain in the ass.

 

One more point i'd make is that I'd like it if cooldowns on abilities didnt trigger until the ability finished casting (exception being channels). I expect people quite often use up their heals by accident because of the way it works at the moment.

 

As for communication, have you folks tried Mumble or other such programs? They are quite a staple of team based gameplay and make communication with your group members a smoother experience. I agree that typing reaction orders to people just doesn't work.

[HuMoR]

As for communication, have you folks tried Mumble or other such programs? They are quite a staple of team based gameplay and make communication with your group members a smoother experience. I agree that typing reaction orders to people just doesn't work.

But then you are saying..in order to complete our current end game dungeons..you need a 3rd party voice chat/msg system to compete in them,I play this game to play it X D not to play it while running others..

Also bro...you ever had 3 kids a crazy rottweiler that thinks its cujo and a bird that screams pretty bird over and over? never silent enough to communicate lol.

Also I feel moves in this game should not deduct nor cause cooldown until after completion of the cast.
You have resurrection with the highest mana cost in the game and highest cooldown lol a failed res may be your mana and on cd.

Edited by HuMoR, 20 September 2014 - 23:28.

[Oops]

ok if ya want the prophets to res then we need to be able to res someone instantly and we need to have haste gems as to boost our haste and yes am specced into the points to increase my haste but my cool down for res is shorter then most and not as fast as a sins I love having sins in group for their buff but I don't think I should be forced to have one in group nor do I wish to be forced to be the one ressing all the time I have a hard time paying attention to the floor in rg and healing ppl so now ya wanna force me to res nope not gonna happen ya die ya can lay there dead

[Wiivja]

Why would i want to download something to talk with other players? Just make it so if you cancel the res it dont put it on cooldown

[redsmokeboy]

Raidcall - mumble - Teamspeack - all programe's need people to join use sevral but fact is most don't use them, In game or offical one posted, Bye GM's more might use for now most use these programe's for guild's so forth but as of right now still no guild's.

 

Rez issue, Main point stated

 

Talk on death point made back during beta testing, Reraly is some thing need be add to game.

Keep change to rez, Some way comuncated during death very usefull.

Edited by redsmokeboy, 20 September 2014 - 23:34.

[l3fty]

You don't need to, I'm saying it helps the experience. Just like a comfortable chair, a decent mouse and some sort of weaponry to fend of those noisy family members

[Oops]

or ever had a grandkid in my case who wanted to be held alot while he was here as his mom was sick in hospital I am not gonna download some program so I can chat with people over the internet I shouldnt have to lol I like some bit of my privacy and if I have to use a program to chat then people can hear what is going on in the back ground in my house which at times is my grandkids crying cause I say it is bed time lol or I say no you can't play with that lets get real I don't wanna spend hours in a dungeon I don't want to do one mob at a time I shouldn't have to I get bore while in hour long dungeons and then will just space out this isn't good for the team as I am the healer so yea please rethink the time it take to do these dungeons if ya won't change the res cooldown

Edited by jeffslady, 20 September 2014 - 23:48.

[l3fty]

Yeah the chat being inactive while dead is rubbish. It's something the system guys have wanted to change for a while, perhaps they will get a chance to look at it once the Steam build has been submitted.

[redsmokeboy]

Yeah the chat being inactive while dead is rubbish. It's something the system guys have wanted to change for a while, perhaps they will get a chance to look at it once the Steam build has been submitted.

Kinda very sad to read not much way for good of game, realy should be added before steam as very much need companet.

 

Alot to do and completed to get ready for steam as well limited number people, thought this should be on top od list or have been added some time back, Chnage 5 min rez time make need for chat sys alow comunctaion durinmg death, Keep 5 min even with some tweek's with out chat function's usage make this part of the main issue.

Edited by redsmokeboy, 21 September 2014 - 00:02.

[zargon]

Again, I like the strategy this adds to dungeons but you cannot ask the healer to be part of the res team. Typically you want the res order to be: assassin, then ranger and warrior, then mage (in case back up heals are needed, especially if the healer goes down), then tank and lastly the healer (if all else fails and may fail totally when you get to this point)

Edited by zargon, 21 September 2014 - 01:24.

[lester]

I cancel meteorite in the middle of its animation when i'm in the air and there is no cool down i cancel the revive spell and i get a 5 min cool down lol, and if someone is reviving the same guy i am and we both look at each other thinking to ourselves "Well he is reviving so i should cancel mine and focus the boss" we both cancel and the guy is still dead on the floor , 2 revives down.This is strategy? There are better ways to add strategy to dungeons  then increasing the res time , there is even better ways to making bosses harder then giving it a extra 1 million health which doesn't increase the difficulty it increases the time.Assassins are going to have to be the medics now,well this game has gone a long way.