78 replies to this topic

[Kedyn]

Plus to not removing cooldown - where has that campaign come from?

 

We'd go back to 1-3 guilds, with 1 dominating, taking all titan epics.

 

Combine that with a new idea to combine epics to make them more powerful and you are looking at a strong to near monopoly on the newly combined epics, if they happened.

 

I don't see that as better than how it is now.

 

And don't nerf titan doubler. Just never extend it!

 

Agreed here - I would agree not to nerf the titan doubler. As someone had posted Wolffe's Economics 101 - it's true. It's the idea that demand is not increasing, but supply continually does so. 

 

As Bel said earlier - allowing the re-use of titan epics to increase the stats really is only a temporary solution. A solution where the few guilds who have been stockpiling the epics with the idea that this type of move was coming, will profit from greatly until the market saturates again. 

 

I think one way to combat this is to turn these items to make them bound once a player starts upgrading the epics. Even if you allowed a maximum of +2 stamina gain after 3 combinations would be okay (maybe success rates of 75%/50%/25% without the ability to increase them). An idea, which I don't know how smart it would be is to make the upgrades go like this - Upgrade 1 - +1 stam to item. Upgrade 2 - make the item considered a "set" item, but no additional "set" bonus stats. It would allow buffs like CA, CD, etc to calculate with. Upgrade 3 - +1 stam + 10% bonus to stats - not available to use in arena.

 

I would suggest making the items bound to a player once they upgrade 1 time. Also, make it so that the upgrade can fail, but you only lose the "upgrading" item - aka the un-upgraded epic. At most, this would only add +18 stam/gain per hour, with the ability for "set" buffs to work, but there wouldn't be any multiplier for it. It would just allow buffs like CA / CD to take effect (aka you could wear 1-2 epics while in a decent offline set and still be able to defend yourself).

 

Overall, as people have stated - it would only be a temporary solution, as would really anything. At the end of the day to increase prices, you either need to increase demand or decrease supply. Demand would only increase by re-use of epics or bringing in a higher player population. The second piece of that (higher population) should be higher priority. 

Edited by Kedyn, 20 August 2015 - 20:11.

[EpicPiety]

The reason why items started to lose value was because of cool down . That was the start of ruining TH. I'm not opposed to seasonal CD, but why limit my game play on regular titans. As of now only about 6 maybe 7 titans are worth hunting. I secure titans in 40 minutes by myself. This means i can only TH 4.8 Hours a week! That's absurd! I'm hardly allowed to do what i like to do. Now lets say my guild secures half of them. Cut that number in half. Monopoly? That's probably impossible now a days. Teleport and TD really did a number on the fast hunters. You have a very small window to be able to steal a secure. Pretty much the first person on a titan gets the secure. We should just give it a test run to see if this "monopoly" really would exist still. I don't think it will exist.

Edited by EpicPiety, 21 August 2015 - 01:02.

[yghorbeviahn]

Please, keep Cooldown and keep Titan Doubler, that is not the problem.

The problem is the low demand because the game is old, so everybody already have their Epics, create something to do with those Epics and the competition/price will raise.

[EpicPiety]

Please, keep Cooldown and keep Titan Doubler, that is not the problem.

The problem is the low demand because the game is old, so everybody already have their Epics, create something to do with those Epics and the competition/price will raise.

Care to explain why prices suddenly started to drop rapidly when CD came out and when TD came out then? If you can provide a valid argument i'll be forced to agree . Do you fancy limiting game play? Why not put some limiters on your PvP or whatever you do. They somewhat did mess with it and you guys went crazy. You somehow got your way too. Teach me how you did it obsessive complaining? The less i'm ALLOWED to play this game the less i WANT to play. There was no CD for years. Cry babies wanted a free win button though and they got it. Epics are supposed to be challenging to acquire not free. Lastly Competition? You want some competition? Take CD away then because that totally killed competition. TD as well because if your 5 minutes late forget a chance at securing. Everyone who is pro CD has never provided a valid reasoning for it? Stamina is limiting enough on titans.

Edited by EpicPiety, 21 August 2015 - 07:33.

[yotwehc]

Care to explain why prices suddenly started to drop rapidly when CD came out and why TD came out then? If you can provide a valid argument i'll be forced to agree . Do you fancy limiting game play? Why not put some limiters on your PvP or whatever you do. They somewhat did mess with it and you guys went crazy. You somehow got your way too. Teach me how you did it obsessive complaining? The less i'm ALLOWED to play this game the less i WANT to play. There was no CD for years. Cry babies wanted a free win button though and they got it. Epics are supposed to be challenging to acquire not free. 

You already know the answer to this... Monopolies... If you have a monopoly, prices will stay artificially high as those with the power control the majority of the inventory. With the level playing field, there is competition and prices drop as folks in smaller guilds will sell the hard earned epics for a much lesser price. I personally benefitted in the old system as I can spend a ridiculous amount of time killing a titan but now even folks with limited time to play have a chance to capture their own epics. I think it's great for the game despite being not so great for me personally.

[EpicPiety]

You already know the answer to this... Monopolies... If you have a monopoly, prices will stay artificially high as those with the power control the majority of the inventory. With the level playing field, there is competition and prices drop as folks in smaller guilds will sell the hard earned epics for a much lesser price. I personally benefitted in the old system as I can spend a ridiculous amount of time killing a titan but now even folks with limited time to play have a chance to capture their own epics. I think it's great for the game despite being not so great for me personally.

Were there really monopolies though? Is it really any different now than then? Proportionally guilds are securing the same lol. The only difference is they are doing it for DIRT. Say back before HCS totally ruined TH epics would go say 1k for the higher end. Might take smaller guilds 3 rounds of cleaning TKP to get a epic. So in three hunts back then they got 1k fsps. Now they just wait out guilds to be on CD and do 3 hunts and get 3 secures or 750 for the higher end. They are actually doing worse off now with all this crap. These so called partial monopolies were very very good for the market and everyone benefited better. By no means were they full on monopolies because plenty of guilds got epics and secures aswell. The world today is moving towards that whole everyone needs to feel good crap. So they need to feel just as good because they can now secure in this watered down system. Remove CD and implement recipes it will fix the market. It's not even like these guilds taking most of the secures back in the day were doing it easily. It was down to the last few kills every time! CD is literally ruining the market/Limiting everyone's gameplay. It's doing absolutely NO good. You talk about a level playing field? I say free win button as opportunity to secure titans is there for every guild regardless without CD. Time restrictions? If you hunted with a team back then it took about 1.5 hours. That's not much, if you can't find that much time you can't TH sorry. 35-40 mins for a solo secure now a days is just broken. Get a full team on that and its about 20 minutes. TD needs to be nerfed down to 2x. Skipping back to leveling the playing field...What do you think TP is!!! That's a ridiculously OP buff for slow hunters and they should be thankful. With all these things taken into account now a days CD needs to go. Even partial monopolies will be very hard with TD/TP. If everyone is going to willingly let one of the only money making things in this game rot they need to scale down upgrade prices aswell. Because with this market rotting its become near impossible for anyone to upgrade their character without dropping yearly wages.

Edited by EpicPiety, 21 August 2015 - 07:58.

[yotwehc]

Were there really monopolies though? Is it really any different now than then? Proportionally guilds are securing the same lol. The only difference is they are doing it for DIRT. Say back before HCS totally ruined TH epics would go say 1k for the higher end. Might take smaller guilds 3 rounds of cleaning TKP to get a epic. So in three hunts back then they got 1k fsps. Now they just wait out guilds to be on CD and do 3 hunts and get 3 secures or 750 for the higher end. They are actually doing worse off now with all this crap. These so called partial monopolies were very very good for the market and everyone benefited better. By no means were they full on monopolies because plenty of guilds got epics and secures aswell. The world today is moving towards that whole everyone needs to feel good crap. So they need to feel just as good because they can now secure in this watered down system. Remove CD and implement recipes it will fix the market. It's not even like these guilds taking most of the secures back in the day were doing it easily. It was down to the last few kills every time! CD is literally ruining the market/Limiting everyone's gameplay. It's doing absolutely NO good. You talk about a level playing field? I say free win button as opportunity to secure titans is there for every guild regardless without CD. Time restrictions? If you hunted with a team back then it took about 1.5 hours. That's not much, if you can't find that much time you can't TH sorry. 35-40 mins for a solo secure now a days is just broken. Get a full team on that and its about 20 minutes. TD needs to be nerfed down to 2x. Skipping back to leveling the playing field...What do you think TP is!!! That's a ridiculously OP buff for slow hunters and they should be thankful. With all these things taken into account now a days CD needs to go. Even partial monopolies will be very hard with TD/TP.

lol. So while the small guild gets 1 epic over 3 titan spawns, the big guild gets 3 secures and that's assuming the small guild gets 2nd place everytime. Before CD, we only sometimes cracked the top 5 to earn the bonus tkp so your example does not fly. The other big guilds would continue to take the top spots.

 

You think it's ruining the market, I think it's great! more people can get epics!

 

What do you think a poll would say?

[EpicPiety]

lol. So while the small guild gets 1 epic over 3 titan spawns, the big guild gets 3 secures and that's assuming the small guild gets 2nd place everytime. Before CD, we only sometimes cracked the top 5 to earn the bonus tkp so your example does not fly. The other big guilds would continue to take the top spots.

 

You think it's ruining the market, I think it's great! more people can get epics!

 

What do you think a poll would say?

Poll? If it required at least a gold+ titan medal it would pass . Now a days even without CD placing top 5 won't be hard if your a small guild. Used to be 40 TH on one map back then...Now might see maybe 5-10. Now they have TP too so they have a lot of utility. Since when was TH geared towards making things easier for less serious players though? TH isn't for everyone. Another thing i don't think its ruining the market I KNOW it is its a fact. Everyone could get epics back then as well? They just had to support the game alittle bit to obtain them or do other things to make fsps which i think was great. Epics are meant to be EPICS not for EVERYONE mine aswell change the description to "Common"

Edited by EpicPiety, 21 August 2015 - 08:15.

[yghorbeviahn]

Easy, if one guild hunt all the Titans, they can choose the price to sell the items without competition. And by one Guild I mean like 5 players, the ones on that guild which actually do hunt the Titans.

About Titan Doubler, with more guilds hunting Titans, more Epics go to the market, with a low demand the market will flood and the demand will decrease.

[EpicPiety]

Easy, if one guild hunt all the Titans, they can choose the price to sell the items without competition. And by one Guild I mean like 5 players, the ones on that guild which actually do hunt the Titans.

About Titan Doubler, with more guilds hunting Titans, more Epics go to the market, with a low demand the market will flood and the demand will decrease.

Its impossible to hunt them all. Low demand? There is only low demand because of TD/CD to begin with? Regardless, continue to ruin the game. Titans are almost already scared for life because of this win button. Literally all i have to do now is find a prime time when everyones on cooldown and press a few buttons for 30-40 minutes and bam free epic. Why can't i just trade in the stamina for an epic at this point honestly.

Edited by EpicPiety, 21 August 2015 - 08:20.

[yghorbeviahn]

Its impossible to hunt them all. Low demand? There is only low demand because of TD/CD to begin with? Regardless, continue to ruin the game. Titans are almost already scared for life because of this win button. Literally all i have to do now is find a prime time when everyones on cooldown and press a few buttons for 30-40 minutes and bam free epic. Why can't i just trade in the stamina for an epic at this point honestly.

CD: Players still able to hunt Titans, but not at the same Guild.
TD: It's a win button, all Titans now take 1/4 of the time it took before, it is working the way it was intended to work, or am I crazy? 

Instead of suggesting the removal of those things, why not take another approach?

If the problem is the amount of Titans spawning, why not limit it?
Make that the Titan can not spawn again after 8 hours it was killed, after the 8 hours, the Titan can spawn randomly again.

That will lower the amount of Titans out there, and decrease the supply, with something to do with the Epics we will see the demand increase and bang, we have the Epic prices going to normal again.

I agree with you, now players can not earn enough profit without paying with real money, in the past I've done 2 epic hunts, both with 2.5K+ FSPs plus all big potions...I can not donate to the game, so all those dots came from Titans and few other things, now it is impossible to do it again since the Epics worth 1/4 of the previous value...But well, that's the game, what can we do...At least we can try things to help the game, and not to monopolize the drops.

[yotwehc]

I think the ideas to combine epics for even more epic epics is a good one with chance for failure. Again, over time, prices will drop again but it will take time. Sadly, it will put epics out of reach for a lot of players and the merchants hoarding epics will make a killing. Can't win'm all...

[yghorbeviahn]

I think the ideas to combine epics for even more epic epics is a good one with chance for failure. Again, over time, prices will drop again but it will take time. Sadly, it will put epics out of reach for a lot of players and the merchants hoarding epics will make a killing. Can't win'm all...

I agree, it's the same history when we have a new SE, on the start it worth 300FSPs, after 2 weeks worth 10FSPs...But I can't see another option.

The game needs a way to give devoted players enough profit to be able to buy Epic Chests, Current Stamina, Max Stamina and those things...Without that the game will be only for those who can pay to play. Without that the only way to make profit would be by donating itself.

[yotwehc]

I agree, it's the same history when we have a new SE, on the start it worth 300FSPs, after 2 weeks worth 10FSPs...But I can't see another option.

The game needs a way to give devoted players enough profit to be able to buy Epic Chests, Current Stamina, Max Stamina and those things...Without that the game will be only for those who can pay to play. Without that the only way to make profit would be by donating itself.

If some of the ideas suggested where you could potentially upgrade it 5x, it would take a LONG time to have the value dropped that much. especially if making a +1 requires 2 items... then a +2 would require two +1's, etc... then to upgrade 5x, it would require 32 of the items to get it to +5... that's crazy!

[yghorbeviahn]

If some of the ideas suggested where you could potentially upgrade it 5x, it would take a LONG time to have the value dropped that much. especially if making a +1 requires 2 items... then a +2 would require two +1's, etc... then to upgrade 5x, it would require 32 of the items to get it to +5... that's crazy!

Yeah, but I think +5 is way too much.

Make it +2 only, if needed we can add more in the future.

[Kedyn]

Care to explain why prices suddenly started to drop rapidly when CD came out and when TD came out then? If you can provide a valid argument i'll be forced to agree . 

 

Cooldown was a necessary component of the game. If all titans were owned by the same few groups, which they were in the beginning, those groups can collude to keep prices high. I think you're forgetting a few key pieces of economics.. supply and demand.

 

The cool-down allowed other guilds to join in the spoils of titans. Other guilds were able to gain secures or more TKP by killing the titan while major titan hunting guilds couldn't hunt. Sure it hurt those guilds who solely wanted to hunt titans, but helped those guilds who didn't have the speed/access to hunt against the fastest hunters.

 

After cooldown happened, the price of epics went down because the supply was going up, and demand was going down. Currently, there are only a set number of active players in the game, and by this point in the game, the players/guilds who want the epics have mostly bought the epics they want. The demand is becoming lower, while supply is still increasing because titans continue to spawn. 

 

If HCS creates another epic that gives better stats (Stam gian/hr) than the prior epics value automatically drops. The new epic is highly in demand for those who want the most stam/hr, which gives it a high price in the beginning. As the supply of those items increases, demand will slowly decrease based on players who have purchased. At some point in time, there is an over-abundance of the epics, which creates pricing wars for those who want to sell quickly. The other epics will have deteriorated because players who have replaced it will want to sell it, and the titan will continue to spawn. 

 

Nutcracker is an example of an epic that works well - there is a limited spawn time and it's one of the best epics. That is why that epic holds the value it does. If HCS were to release an epic that has more stam/hr than the ring, then the ring wouldn't be worth as much to most players (not including arena players). 

 

The biggest issue is trying to continually increase the demand of the item, which there are some ideas here to do so for a limited period. The best solution is to create a continual flow of new players who will create the demand on their own for these items. 

[EpicPiety]

Cooldown was a necessary component of the game. If all titans were owned by the same few groups, which they were in the beginning, those groups can collude to keep prices high. I think you're forgetting a few key pieces of economics.. supply and demand.

 

The cool-down allowed other guilds to join in the spoils of titans. Other guilds were able to gain secures or more TKP by killing the titan while major titan hunting guilds couldn't hunt. Sure it hurt those guilds who solely wanted to hunt titans, but helped those guilds who didn't have the speed/access to hunt against the fastest hunters.

 

After cooldown happened, the price of epics went down because the supply was going up, and demand was going down. Currently, there are only a set number of active players in the game, and by this point in the game, the players/guilds who want the epics have mostly bought the epics they want. The demand is becoming lower, while supply is still increasing because titans continue to spawn. 

 

If HCS creates another epic that gives better stats (Stam gian/hr) than the prior epics value automatically drops. The new epic is highly in demand for those who want the most stam/hr, which gives it a high price in the beginning. As the supply of those items increases, demand will slowly decrease based on players who have purchased. At some point in time, there is an over-abundance of the epics, which creates pricing wars for those who want to sell quickly. The other epics will have deteriorated because players who have replaced it will want to sell it, and the titan will continue to spawn. 

 

Nutcracker is an example of an epic that works well - there is a limited spawn time and it's one of the best epics. That is why that epic holds the value it does. If HCS were to release an epic that has more stam/hr than the ring, then the ring wouldn't be worth as much to most players (not including arena players). 

 

The biggest issue is trying to continually increase the demand of the item, which there are some ideas here to do so for a limited period. The best solution is to create a continual flow of new players who will create the demand on their own for these items. 

A key point everyone tends to keep forgetting. What tier of item do titans drop? Is it meant for everyone? So on and so forth.

[cucullainn]

Please, keep Cooldown and keep Titan Doubler, that is not the problem.
The problem is the low demand because the game is old, so everybody already have their Epics, create something to do with those Epics and the competition/price will raise.

I don't have my Epics :-(

[Chrism2165]

Don't know if someones suggested this because I dont want to read several pages, i read a few/brief scan.

 

My suggestion (if no one has suggested) would be to temp remove titans for a random limited time, also add some new titans. Epics that can be obtained will gain value, they could come back every few months randomly switching and removing some current titans (at random) and putting the temp removed back into the game. Also seen some comments about removing cooldown. That would be dumb because of the big guilds dominating, epic begging for it i saw lol, give others a chance, if your guild is on to many cooldowns, then thats your guilds problem. This is to make the game more fair and fun. Also i saw something about a hell forging, seemed like a good idea, like gambling, the game is meant to have risks, the more sinks the better, the game is flooded with epics and most epics have dropped really low. Titan doubler has done some damage, the reason is because more are putting the effort in because it doesnt take so long. Also a suggestion i saw about nerfing titan doubler, just leave it as it is, who wants to spend hours titan hunting. I remember back in the day, it was like torture lol also some of us have jobs, we cant spend hours on end titan hunting. Even in a descent group it would take an easy hour minimum.