49 replies to this topic

[Savanc]

But why would players who don't like PvP be the victims and facilitate the pleasure of another player at their own expense?

[Neon]

It just doesn't seem fun from my point of view and I know others think the same if all areas are safe. There is just no sense of fear or excitement if you know you're going somewhere where you could get killed, those areas maybe being large or small that could include some sort of rare mineral or material that could be used to craft new items.

 

And for pvpers it is gets boring if you have a 1v1 or free for all face of, it's nice to spot someone who is being harmless and gathering resources and kill them for what they've collected or just claim a free kill because you like to be mean

 

For someone who doesn't want to pvp could bring no items to these areas to pass through it or harvest from it. Some could use items to defend themselves while in it or others could simply not go in it if they don't want to bring themselves to any risk.

[Xohn]

I don't think both should be entirely separate.. 

 

Just because people don't want to 'die' and lose items does not mean having pvp separate from pve will be fun it could be very bland and boring.. 

 

I enjoy pvp but not just the one on one where you know you're facing your opponent. I like to be able to sneak up or stealthy attack someone who is being harmless.. It's just a big sense of freedom and opens up more strategies of game play, not to mention some resources may be in the 'Open areas' and harder to obtain making the economy more stable for rarer resources since they will be more risky to obtain.

 

Yes no one wants to die when they're not intentionally pvping but without any risk it's just a "Fairy game" You will be fluttering through everything with everyone else knowing you are never in danger.

Mechanics like these could potentially make the game "unfun" to certain people. The servers idea proposed earlier would be perfect to accommodate everyone from  the softcore players(PvE only) to the players looking for more challenge. Characters should not be able to migrate servers once they are created of course.

[Whane The Whip]

Characters should not be able to migrate servers once they are created of course.

 

I agree with this in terms of having a PvP server otherwise players will get all of their gear (and levels) on carebear servers then move to a red server whereas those keeping their character on the red server alone would have to do this while fighting off other players. I recall reading somewhere that characters in Eldevin are not "tied" to a single server however the nature of hopping to another server was not explained (I.E. is there a fee?).

 

*If* there were to be PvP servers then imo they would have to be immune from server hopping option so if you wanted to make it, then you would have to start off as a level 1 and work your way up just like anyone else. But then this would lead to alt considerations for those that wanted to have both a red server character and care bear character. The PvP server scenario is the easiest to implement imo but also costs more for the developers, esp if they plan to have geographically based servers too.

[SoDox]

What it comes down to is PVP is apart of the game no matter what. There shouldnt be a opt in or out I mean come on seriously.... . But I agree of course every single area outside of towns cant be open to pvp, But at the same time the whole World cannot be completely PVP free. Making a PVP only server ruins the PVE aspect of the game for PVPers also. Because it is crazy hard to find Groups to kill hard bosses and team with other players to accomplish quests because everyone  just logs onto PVP servers to PK. Trust me I know from experience E.I Drankensang online.

 

There should be an area that is open to PVP like the wilderness Just as there is areas for PvE.(The dark and BLOOD areas would be perfect) If you dont like being killed stay out. Simple as that. IF one or two quests require you to venture into these areas so be it is that the end of the world? ...No you die and respawn and try again. And maybe the reward is worth getting PKed a few times? Thats the fun of the quest If everything was easy in Life there would be No desire to succeed.. Also you have to give more insentive for players to PVP. Loot,rankings ect.... Maybe even controllable territories inside this wilderness for guilds to fight over that generate gold for the guild members.and your guild name turns into the name of the territory(piece of land). You know..like fighting over land in the medieval days...realistic..

[SDGR]

1. Having fun on others' expense is not right. No matter how you try to justify it, being able to force attack someone would result in a bad gaming experience for the victim. Ppl play online games to relax and have fun, not to get pissed off.

 

2. Open PvP kills MMOs. It might be thrilling at first, but slowly (yet surely) it drives players away. Ok, there will be a couple of hardcore PvPers that would stick around, but most ppl don't like to be forced into PvP activities and that's why the PvP servers or channels are deserted.

 

3. I'm fed up with the "life's not easy" so MMOs should follow that pattern as well argument. Guess what? In real life, if you kill someone, you go to jail - plain and simple. Now if the game had a system that would put your toon behind bars for an extended period of time (with no possibility of buying your freedom out with cash shop items) or having a perma char delete punishment for killing another player I'd say ok, make the game open PvP and take your chances. But since the attacker doesn't actually risk anything, it's not a fair system.

 

4. Consented PvP is the way to go: special facilities (such as Arenas) where ppl can freely test their strenght. There is no real reason for anything else apart from making others' in game life miserable. And I've seen enough stuff going on in MMOs to know to what extent things can escalate.

[Whane The Whip]

Making a PVP only server ruins the PVE aspect of the game for PVPers also. 

The PvP server model is very successful and fully consensual by way of server choice, it's worked in many MMO's for well over a decade. PvE is still very accessible to the smart, the strong, those willing to win friends and allies, and if none of those work, patience wins all. That is all part of the challenge and why PvP is so appealing, it brings in player controlled aspects to the game, you have to think things through. Yes it's harder, and yes that makes the reward so much sweeter. A common quest item easy to get on carebear becomes a status symbol on red. Complete a quest on carebear... grats, you just did what everyone else did, complete a quest on red, you have something more to brag about. Most MMO's are boringly easy, too few offer real challenge. 

 

 

Open PvP kills MMOs.

I've never seen that happen. Do you have an example?

[SoDox]

SDGR woah calm down man You act as if I am personally attacking you. calm down and take a deep breath lol...

 

1. How is having an area for pvp within the huge world of eldevin Unfair or "having fun on others expense?" If you dont want to particapate in pvp then stay away from it..

 

2. Open pvp kills MMO's? Can you please name on for me? .... Runescape is going 13 years strong and has an open pvp area "the Wilderness.

 

3. Did I say Lifes not easy so MMOs should be open pk...No I said "If everything was easy No one would have the desire to succeed." pertaining to the level of difficulty in quests and the game. I can see you have had some bad experiences on other mmos Probably bad ones If PVP was able to distrupe your game play that bad.

 

4. An open PVP area is totally consensual..E.i If you dont want to PK dont wonder in the area.

 

Odviously you have misread my entire post Im not saying make the whole world of eldevin PVP..Just a certain area instead of a useless arena or a whole different server for pvp..Just a sliver of the map open PVP. please use some attention to detail next time :/. PVP is apart of MMOs just as much as PVE is. Look at WOW and Runescape So successful because of the pvp aspects of the game...WOW has major league gaming. Where players get paid thousands of dollars to PVP... You dont see thousands of people watching WOW players play WOW to go team up and Slay a boss...

[D4VYJONES]

1. Having fun on others' expense is not right. No matter how you try to justify it, being able to force attack someone would result in a bad gaming experience for the victim. Ppl play online games to relax and have fun, not to get pissed off.

 

2. Open PvP kills MMOs. It might be thrilling at first, but slowly (yet surely) it drives players away. Ok, there will be a couple of hardcore PvPers that would stick around, but most ppl don't like to be forced into PvP activities and that's why the PvP servers or channels are deserted.

 

3. I'm fed up with the "life's not easy" so MMOs should follow that pattern as well argument. Guess what? In real life, if you kill someone, you go to jail - plain and simple. Now if the game had a system that would put your toon behind bars for an extended period of time (with no possibility of buying your freedom out with cash shop items) or having a perma char delete punishment for killing another player I'd say ok, make the game open PvP and take your chances. But since the attacker doesn't actually risk anything, it's not a fair system.

 

4. Consented PvP is the way to go: special facilities (such as Arenas) where ppl can freely test their strenght. There is no real reason for anything else apart from making others' in game life miserable. And I've seen enough stuff going on in MMOs to know to what extent things can escalate.

1. Of course it is not right. That's why you should retaliate. Gather your friends and fight back.

2. There are many successful war games. Some areas are pvp-disabled or protected by a very strong Guard NPC (It's fun to distract the NPC to kill the low level players inside but you need to have a very high level.)

3. The attacker risk the same thing as the one he attack...

4. We can go there to test our strength with friendly allies.

[Kaendor]

I've never seen that happen. Do you have an example?

 

Some examples, Darkfall online, Mortal Online, Legend of Ares (used to exist), Dekaron/2 Moons (having some hard time), Archlord (because I love going out of town and get killed by a random high lvl dude), Ashen Empires (Heroes Server/PvP server is dead, people rarelly show up there), Tibia (pvp servers are noticieabily less populated than pve servers/ you cant basically play these, unless you have a group of friends to keep you safe from hunter/looters), RYL, RYL2 and ROW ( this sequel of games used to be very popular, now its just another of those almost dead mmos that you find on the net), Crowns of Power (same open world pvp, basically is almost dead, last news from the game are from 3 years ago). I must also point the pvp servers that used to exist in Rift, all of them got closed due to low population, these servers used to be populated until the people got tired of getting ganked (leveling, training was almost impossible).Now the only pvp in Rift is instanced, which people do prefer in that game.

Darkfall online did start with quite a bit of people, now its population is very low due to its open world pvp. Im a pvper and even I got tired of it, it might sound fun at first, but its hateful after some time, and makes the life of most of players impossile (most common quitting reason).

 

And well as I experienced myself, you will find a very hostile ambient on pvp servers/games (lots of  insults in chat, people hunting the same low level guy who cant retaliate.etc) people arent as helpful as they are in pve. Dont say no, if you have played both pve and pvp servers you know that this is true.

[D4VYJONES]

I think Mortal Online and Darkfall are only built for hardcore pvper...Those games sounds like crap to me.

 

There are great games like DragonSoul, my favourite MMORPG to date. Sadly, it was closed due to financial problem. In that game you can get pvped anywhere, except starter map and towns. But kingdom area are generally safe because it is protected by many Guard NPCs that attack any player that intrude. You can also get pvped by player from the same kingdom but they will go to jail for a couple of hours and receive a negative buff.

 

During early level, there are basically no chance to meet players from another kingdom, so that means no chance to pvp. Later, the is a quest reward that give you exp continuously for 1 hour. But it only work in a place where players from all kingdoms can meet and interact (chat/ trade/ pvp). The place is generally pvp- disabled, unless you venture to the center, a message will warn you that you entered free zone, then you can get pvped. There's also a portal in the center for high level instance. ( Looks like a bait to me xD )

 

Now that you met your new ally or enemy, you can form guild to compete with each other. There is Guild manor that is free area, accessible to anyone that have a guild. If you get killed there, you only lose item durability and the enemy gain nothing. This place is basically use to make you hate your enemy even more xD. You can rear fish, chicken and plant corn for product that can craft better accesories and potions. But enemy can steal them if you don't harvest them quickly, like a mini Farmville.

 

If your guild is strong enough, you can be the king of your kingdom and start kingdom quests for all of your kingdom's citizen. Kingdom quests are like daily or weekly events. Mostly, they involve pvp like "assassin a kingdom's king" and "kingdom border escort". During the escort, your enemy can kill your kingdom players for kill count and loot a quest item if they destroy their escort. It can be exchanged for money with NPC. But the escort quest give a high reward, so people will keep coming to do it. Weaker kingdoms will establish alliance for protection against the enemies. In the game when someone is killed by another player, a message will apppear "Kingdom A, Player 1 killed Kingdom B, player 2 ( X, Y ) Location". We use this to keep track of the pvper. It is also used to prevent player from farming their alternate accounts.

 

A group of elite players will first guard their kingdom boundaries and let their weaker citizen to complete their escort first. After that they can visit their enemies, usually result in mass pvp. They can do their escort after the enemies thought that they already finished it before the time run out for the escort. Damn! Good old memory! I get thrilled by just thinking of it! Co-op 100%. We even use TeamSpeak!

 

And there is another war game but I don't want to mention its name here. Sadly, Pay to Win.

[Savanc]

1. Of course it is not right. That's why you should retaliate. Gather your friends and fight back.

3. The attacker risk the same thing as the one he attack...

 

1. That's the problem here. A lot of players don't want to PvP. And you're saying the only way to deal with PvP is doing it yourself.

Sounds to me like a mother who is telling her kid that the only way he won't have to eat his/her broccoli is to eat it, because then it's gone and he/she won't have to eat it.

 

3. But the attacker likes PvP, and the risk is part of his/her enjoyment of the game.

The one who gets attacked often doesn't like PvP, and the risks are only adding to the resentment they feel.

Plus people who don't like PvP are often less equipped for it, have less allies who have their back in these situations, have less understanding of the PvP principles, and are therefore less willing and successful in retaliation. In nearly all games the attacker has a big advantage over their victims.
 

[SDGR]

@SoDox: I was talking in general; my previous post was not meant to be a directed personal attack towards you (otherwise I would have quoted your message). Don't worry, I don't get upset/offended easily - but I do tend to stick to my opinions So as far as I'm concerned, no problem 

 

@D4VYJONES: so you admit force attacking another player is not right therefore that guy should retaliate...but here's the thing: that guy was not looking for a fight in the first place. He was minding his own business, you jumped on him, killed him and the only solution to settle the issue would be him getting back on you so even more PvP interraction - which is exactly the other guy was not looking for. What if you pass his location to some of your in game friends telling them the guy is an easy target? Do you see the problem: that player gets caught up in something he is not interested in simply because another player felt like PKing him? 

 

 

I think you guys are a bit confused when it comes to open PvP. You use that term, but you actually refer to PvP areas/maps. When a game states it's open PvP, it means it has an open PvP WORLD. Except for a few safe areas (usually towns) - if any, you can get attacked anywhere by anyone. This is the type of model I was reffering to as a total failure. While having a few areas/maps where players could go in out of their free will only when they feel like it is a totally different thing. So yeah, open PvP as in "open PvP world" kills MMOs - as Kaendor managed so well to explain

 

I have nothing against a special PvP map/area as long as regular players are not forced to go in there in order to complete mandatory quests or something similar. RF had such a stupid system, Archlord as well - guess where the PKers were camping?

[Whane The Whip]

 

Some examples, Darkfall online...

I had to stop with your #1. PvP *MADE* darkfall, it didn't kill it. Darkfall is a success appealing to hardcore PvPers that want the ultimate challenge, the entire game is based on this and yet the game has some of the single best innovations of any MMO out there. PvP didn't kill this game and in fact it led to a Darkfall 2; it is *so* successful that there is a sequel.

 

And DF didn't lose population with open PvP.. it has always had open PvP. It has lost population because Aventurine SA has almost a zero advertising budget and relies almost entirely on players to market the site but unfortunately the players are not necessarily good at promotions. That and the fact that the game loses steam from pure boredome... every MMO has a player life expectancy  for many of the dumbed down MMO's that's just a couple of months, Darkfall has a retention ability that runs into the years. Another reason the game is losing steam is because many players are turning to the F2P model and Darkfall doesn't even have a trial version (except on rare occasions, and that is temporary). Most of the Darkfall fans are also on hold waiting for the next Darkfall installment and the old has been cancelled, not because it failed, but because Aventurine SA wants just one version of the game live.

 

There are lots of "dead" MMO's on the net, but just being dead does not mean it was due to PvP. There are also tons of removed servers from MMO's, it's usually due to population and that applies to carebear and red alike, you can't say the removal of a low population server is proof that PvP killed the game unless you are also willing to say that the removal of a low population carebear server is also proof that PvE killed the MMO. This is a population issue and yes there are often fewer people that like PvP than like PvE because fewer people like to be challenged in this way. But again, that does not mean PvP killed the game. You have to prove the claim that an MMO's was taken down as a result of PvP, otherwise it is only opinion.

 

Just because you don't like the challenge offered by games like Darkfall does not mean PvP kills MMO's.

[D4VYJONES]

@D4VYJONES: so you admit force attacking another player is not right therefore that guy should retaliate...but here's the thing: that guy was not looking for a fight in the first place. He was minding his own business, you jumped on him, killed him and the only solution to settle the issue would be him getting back on you so even more PvP interraction - which is exactly the other guy was not looking for. What if you pass his location to some of your in game friends telling them the guy is an easy target? Do you see the problem: that player gets caught up in something he is not interested in simply because another player felt like PKing him? 

It is not right from the point of view of the one that was attacked. In a game that I played before (DragonSoul), you can throw him eggs to decrease his charisma from a safe zone. A high charisma can trigger a small positive buff while a negative charisma can trigger a negative buff on him. You can still retaliate with out PvPing him. Or ask other players to not sell him items...

I think you guys are a bit confused when it comes to open PvP. You use that term, but you actually refer to PvP areas/maps. When a game states it's open PvP, it means it has an open PvP WORLD. Except for a few safe areas (usually towns) - if any, you can get attacked anywhere by anyone. This is the type of model I was reffering to as a total failure. While having a few areas/maps where players could go in out of their free will only when they feel like it is a totally different thing. So yeah, open PvP as in "open PvP world" kills MMOs - as Kaendor managed so well to explain

Take the example DragonSoul I mentioned above. It is open PvP. But 99% of PvP that happened was kingdom VS kingdom. Because PvP with player from the same kingdom is not encouraged... You will go to jail for a couple of hours and receive a negative buff. So basically, it is relatively safe for PvE players. Enemy kingdom player can sneak in your kingdom area when your gate opens. But because of PvP message, the invader can be tracked and hunt down by players from your kingdom. There is also Guard NPC that one-hit-kill any low level players that don't belong to the NPC kingdom.

 

Sorry if I talk about DragonSoul too much. It is my favourite MMORPG so far...but it is closed. Eldevin have 6 kingdoms. I hope to feel such thrill and enjoyment from Eldevin.

 

I have nothing against a special PvP map/area as long as regular players are not forced to go in there in order to complete mandatory quests or something similar.

Agreed. But special PvP map/area like Kingdom's border usually have baits to make PvE players go there(optional, high risk but high reward). Common PvP map have none.

[D4VYJONES]

In my opinion, the existance of PvE and PvP servers for a single game makes it feels like 2 different games. One game is more populated because majority of players join PvE server, while the other game dies from low population ( PvP server).

[Minerexstacy]

In world of warcraft, there are servers dedicated to PvP there are many people who play them for the sheer adrenalin rush that you could get attacked at any moment. Since the introduction of Pandaria, world bosses have become major targets where huge masses of people would gather around to kill them while the enemy faction would also join not to help but to kill off the other faction. Everyday people on these servers kill these world bosses because the people want to. If the world was solely PvP with no monsters I don't think anyone would play it because after you hit max level, get the best gear, there is no challenge at all.

 

An open world PvP server could be good because there are people who like them. I.. I hate pvp with all my heart lol. So PvP servers are not my thing but  there are hundreds of people who would play on them. there just needs to be a reason that someone would want to play on one.

 

this is just my thought on pvp

[SDGR]

It is not right from the point of view of the one that was attacked. In a game that I played before (DragonSoul), you can throw him eggs to decrease his charisma from a safe zone. A high charisma can trigger a small positive buff while a negative charisma can trigger a negative buff on him. You can still retaliate with out PvPing him. Or ask other players to not sell him items...

Take the example DragonSoul I mentioned above. It is open PvP. But 99% of PvP that happened was kingdom VS kingdom. Because PvP with player from the same kingdom is not encouraged... You will go to jail for a couple of hours and receive a negative buff. So basically, it is relatively safe for PvE players. Enemy kingdom player can sneak in your kingdom area when your gate opens. But because of PvP message, the invader can be tracked and hunt down by players from your kingdom. There is also Guard NPC that one-hit-kill any low level players that don't belong to the NPC kingdom.

 

Sorry if I talk about DragonSoul too much. It is my favourite MMORPG so far...but it is closed. Eldevin have 6 kingdoms. I hope to feel such thrill and enjoyment from Eldevin.

 

Agreed. But special PvP map/area like Kingdom's border usually have baits to make PvE players go there(optional, high risk but high reward). Common PvP map have none.

 

1. You have to try seeing things from the other's perspective in order to see the whole picture. When you (talking in general) say: "hey I wanna be able to attack anyone anywhere" you have to understand how disruptive your action can be for the other player(s). The problem with PvP systems is that always some players push it to the limit - and beyond; they always find some loopholes and use them to their advantage. They don't fight fair either (attacking from safe distance and/or when the victim is low on hp or can't fight back, etc) and oftem go for an easy kill, not for the top dog. So in reality it's not about having a more challenging gaming experience, it's about making others' miserable. 

 

2. Just because something is not encouraged, it doesn't mean it won't happen - certain ppl do it precisely because they're not supposed to. They don't care about the whole idea behind such a system, they don't care about cooperation or common endgame content, they simply want to be the bad guys. That's why they go against their own faction - nation - race. It can also be used as a strategy to draw more players towards your own group by tarnishing the others' reputation. As for guards...Zu Online had NPCs guarding the borders...until high lvl players from rival territories managed to kill them and go rampant - like I previously said, it's only a matter of time until someone finds a way to bend the system.

 

3. I get what you're saying, but I thought the whole idea of a PvP map is to be able to fight other players with no restriction, not alluring casual players in high risk areas... right? So why a normal PvP map won't do? You're there to fight, not to camp, right?

 

Here's why I'm against having strong incentives in open PvP maps: Hero Online had several PvP maps where ppl would get increased xp and rare drops from mobs. Regular players were not required to actually go in because there were no quests in those areas. Neat. Well what happened was that at some point a guild (I shall not name) decided to take over and enforced a strict control over the entire zone: any player going in without their approval was KOS. As a result they've also gained a monopoly on the game's economy because the only sources for rares were the PvP maps. Thing is, this is not the only MMO in which I've seen this type of behaviour: groups / guilds / alliances claiming territories and KOS any outsider. That's why I think it would be better that the only incentive for a PvP map to be just fighting other players

[Neon]

1. You have to try seeing things from the other's perspective in order to see the whole picture. When you (talking in general) say: "hey I wanna be able to attack anyone anywhere" you have to understand how disruptive your action can be for the other player(s). The problem with PvP systems is that always some players push it to the limit - and beyond; they always find some loopholes and use them to their advantage. They don't fight fair either (attacking from safe distance and/or when the victim is low on hp or can't fight back, etc) and oftem go for an easy kill, not for the top dog. So in reality it's not about having a more challenging gaming experience, it's about making others' miserable. 

 

2. Just because something is not encouraged, it doesn't mean it won't happen - certain ppl do it precisely because they're not supposed to. They don't care about the whole idea behind such a system, they don't care about cooperation or common endgame content, they simply want to be the bad guys. That's why they go against their own faction - nation - race. It can also be used as a strategy to draw more players towards your own group by tarnishing the others' reputation. As for guards...Zu Online had NPCs guarding the borders...until high lvl players from rival territories managed to kill them and go rampant - like I previously said, it's only a matter of time until someone finds a way to bend the system.

 

3. I get what you're saying, but I thought the whole idea of a PvP map is to be able to fight other players with no restriction, not alluring casual players in high risk areas... right? So why a normal PvP map won't do? You're there to fight, not to camp, right?

 

Here's why I'm against having strong incentives in open PvP maps: Hero Online had several PvP maps where ppl would get increased xp and rare drops from mobs. Regular players were not required to actually go in because there were no quests in those areas. Neat. Well what happened was that at some point a guild (I shall not name) decided to take over and enforced a strict control over the entire zone: any player going in without their approval was KOS. As a result they've also gained a monopoly on the game's economy because the only sources for rares were the PvP maps. Thing is, this is not the only MMO in which I've seen this type of behaviour: groups / guilds / alliances claiming territories and KOS any outsider. That's why I think it would be better that the only incentive for a PvP map to be just fighting other players

This seems as you're not seeing it from someones perspective who enjoys pvp, or scrap that someone who enjoys a game that's not extremely easy with little to no risk.

 

What is the point of having PVE and PVP separate, most  PVPers don't want to just fight each other 1v1 or in teams with no 'sneak' or 'defense' tactics. 

 

I can see people don't want "risk" but seriously after a good amount of hours everyone will have the good items if there's no risk of going into a dangerous zone. Dangerous PVE zones can easily be combated because once one player learns the strategy word of mouth will spread and everyone will start to learn the strategy to conquer a 'dangerous' area. Of course there will be some exceptions because we don't know the games content or mechanics yet.

 

I mentioned a few times but I will again, if there's a very rare resource and it's deep in a dangerous area where other players can kill you, won't it make the game a lot more interesting? Yes, because few may be able to harvest that said resource and thus pvpers will guard it and the resource will remain a hard material to obtain.

 

- That is one example but theres a handful of others to support why PVP and PVE should not be separate.

[D4VYJONES]

Is Eldevin a war game?